Maximizing 3B/LF
Mench is gone, Jenkins is gone, we've spent most if not all of the payroll dollars available, and we still only have one starter for 3B and LF.
That's not really a bad thing--we still have 16 or 17 pitchers for 12 spots, including as many as 8 starters, and it's likely that we'll deal one or two of them. A 3B/LF could come back that way. But, given what we'd get in exchange for Capuano or Vargas, I wonder how much that matters.
First off, I'm going to ignore the possibility of getting a CF and moving Bill Hall to 3B. It makes sense, yes, but the Brewers aren't going to do it. If I were running the Strat-O-Matic 2008 Brewers, I'd do it, but that's neither here nor there. So, there are two possibilities: Braun plays third and LaPorta/Gross/Dillon/Gwynn/acquisition covers left, or Braun plays left while Counsell/Rottino/acquisition plays third.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of huge assumptions required in figuring out what would be best. It's easy enough to project offensive performance for guys like Gross, Dillon, and Counsell, or targets such as Brandon Inge or Joe Crede. It's most certainly NOT easy to project how bad Ryan Braun will be at third base next year, or how he'd handle left field, were he to move.
But...let's make some assumptions. Even pinning down Braun's level of defensive "contribution" last year is hard, but if we throw together a bunch of metrics and multiply out to 162 games, he's probably at about -40 runs, or about -4 wins. Needless to say, that's really, really bad. Now, as Jacob pointed out the other day, that's not really the right way to do it -- we should regress some, even apart from the expectation that Braun will work hard at improving. For various reasons I'm not going to get into here, I'm going to do so modestly, and say that, if Braun plays 3B for 155+ games next year, he's going to cost us 3 wins with the glove.
An even tougher assumption is how Braun would handle LF. In many ways, he'd probably be good--he's fast, he's got a strong arm--but there would be an adjustment period. Let's say that his glove would cost us 1 win in left field.
If those assumptions are correct, we gain 2 wins simply by moving Braun to left. It wasn't that easy last year, when Menchkins was installed in left and we had a gaping, Mendoza-lining hole of Counsellino at third, but now that we have a collection of replacement-level talent at both positions with a few months to tweak the roster, it's simpler.
Given that Braun is (according to my WAGs) worth 2 wins more in left, it's obvious that we should look for a 3B. Basically, a replacement-level third baseman is equal to a 2-win left fielder. In more realistic terms, a platoon of Counsell and Rottino is worth about the same as Ryan Church, and only a bit less than Josh Willingham. Put another way, a marginal win costs $3MM+ on the free agent market, so moving Braun saves us six mil.
The options
Given that we can put 3B options and LF options on equal footing by subtracting 2 wins from LFs because they leave Braun at third, let's look at some of our choices:
- Counsell, or Counsell/Rottino platoon: The offense could be brutal -- let's say we'd get 230/320/330 -- but the defense would be pretty good. Approximate runs created (RC) is 59 for that offense, and let's give Craig a win above average for his glove. That's 69 runs, with no penalty for Braun.
- Joe Crede: I project Crede at 323/453 OBP/SLG, or 77 RC. He's a good defender, maybe even as good as Counsell. Give him a win above average, and he's at 87 RC.
- Brandon Inge or Tad Iguchi: I project Inge at 313/405, and Iguchi at 335/387. Both are 70 RC, not much above Counsell's. Inge isn't a notable defender, and Iguchi would be switching positions. These are worse options that giving the job to Counsell outright.
- Gross/Dillon platoon: I project Gross at 338/410, which is mostly vRH, though with plenty of pinch hitting. With a strict platoon, we might get 340/420 out of the pair, which is 77 RC. The defense wouldn't be great, it might even be below-average. Not only that, but we lose two wins because we play Braun at third in this case, which brings us down to...worse than Counsell. In other words, Gross/Dillon is about 1 win worse than Counsell/Rottino, all things considered.
- Tony Gwynn: I know somebody's going to bring him up. I project him at 297/273. His glove would be great, I'm sure, but in order to be as good as Braun in LF and Counsell at 3B, his defense would have to be worth about four wins. That'd be historically good.
- Josh Hamilton/Adam Jones: here are a couple of young trade targets (and, admittedly, very long shots). I've got Hamilton at 366/524, and Jones much lower. Hamilton's numbers give him a RC of 106. His glove is good enough for center, so let's say he'd be 10 runs/1 win above average in left. Subtract 2 wins for putting Braun at third, and we're down to 96. That's considerably better than going with Counsell at third, by far the best option so far, but it's also probably the priciest (in talent, anyway--it would take AT LEAST Villanueva to pry away Hamilton). Jones is much more of a long-term project; I project him around 300/410, or about 4 wins worse with the bat than Hamilton. Andre Ethier is about half-way between them, so a probably upgrade, if a very modest one.
I'm sure there are other options out there, but none of them are going to be much different from one of the examples above. For example, my projection for Rolen is very close to the numbers for Crede, and with his injury history, I don't figure he'll be much better with the glove.
The point of all this isn't to compare all these players, despite all the pixels I've spilled doing so. I'm getting at a few things:
- It's likely that Braun is better in left, even with some improvement at third, even with some adjustment to a new position. I realize this isn't a consensus position, and I don't pretend that my numbers are accurate, but I do think that the difference is somewhere between 1 and 3 wins.
- Craig Counsell's defense makes him a plausible starter. In fact, he may be a better option that some of our supposed targets.
- The gain in switching Braun to left means that any LF we acquire would have to be very, very good in order to make up for leaving Braun at third. Such a player won't be available on the trade market for the likes of Chris Capuano, and the only free agent who fits the bill is probably Barry Bonds.
Moustache In Action
Here's the plan. Sign or trade for a solid backup IF--a Counsell/Alex Cora clone who can play short. Preferably someone righthanded to be a platoon partner of sorts with Counsell. Let Counsell/new guy/Rottino battle it out in spring training for the 3B job, and tell Ryan Braun to start shagging flies.
Trade Capuano, Bush, or Vargas (or two of the above) for prospects, ideally a catcher, almost as ideally some more young pitching. As I see it, the MLB roster is set; anything we do now would just up payroll and make very very minor improvements. Better to shed some $$ by trading Capuano and keep a modest war chest for necessary in-season acquisitions.
Update [2007-12-10 14:15:50 by Jeff]: If you read this right after it was posted, you'll notice the RC numbers have changed. I was using the wrong formula for simple RC (it's simple, but apparently not simple enough), and some of the conclusions change a little bit too.
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great stuff
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by jimmyb1799 on Dec 10, 2007 12:57 PM CST 0 recs
Ethier/Or
Although it makes my brain go fuzzy, I think I get the math. Still, it's hard to imagine Kendall and Counsell in the same lineup as a recipe for winning a division. Even if they are salty veterans.
(I wonder: if we moved Braun to left, what numbers would our mystery 3B need to put up to equal last year's Braun/Menchkins combo? Is Braun/Counsell better than Braun/Msnchkins?)
by roguejim on Dec 10, 2007 12:59 PM CST 0 recs
just added Ethier in there
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 1:17 PM CST
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Ok, this is a bit tricky
in left, we got 86 offensive runs from Menchkins, figure Jenkins is great in left, so add 10 defensive runs, for a total of 96.
Total, then, is ~175.
The tricky part is projecting Braun. I have him coming WAY back to earth, to .328/.501 instead of .370/.634. Still good, but not great. If he does that, and is one win below average in left, that's ~90 runs, or LESS than we got from Menchkins, if a little more at the plate.
For everything to be even, then, we'd need 85 runs, net, at third. Crede is about that.
If you go with my 80% projection for Braun (342/538), he's at 110 offensive runs, 20 better than then median projection, for a net of 100 runs, meaning that Braun + Counsell just about replaces last year's production from those two positions.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 1:43 PM CST
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Thanks
It's a neat little metric, and a useful one (I'd think) when putting a team together, even if there is a fair amount of guesswork involved.
So Counsellino would be an 80 NRC (net runs created), where Crede is about 85. I'd've guessed a bigger difference between the two (or three, I guess). And Braun in left is projecting LESS than Menchkins, which also astounds me. (Someday during the long offseason, you'll have to explain the big dropoff for Braun. An estimated .829 OPS for 2008?)
If that dropoff actually occurs, that's a big deal. Throw in the fact that you're semi-advocating starting Counsell, and our offense could be hurting.
Are you in the camp where Braun should be moved to left regardless of LaPorta? TheJay mentioned a while back that we should deal with that problem when/if it arises --- I don't know if I'm fully on board with that, but it might be the best approach.
by roguejim on
Dec 10, 2007 2:25 PM CST
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Braun vs. Menchkins
but the big story is Braun's dropoff. It might be that there's too much regression in my system, but keep in mind that any projection system is going to base a forecast on three years of data, and even a really strong performance in AAA isn't going to translate to MLB dominance.
also, Braun had an unsustainably high BABIP. That doesn't account for all of the decline, but it does for some. If I had to guess, I'd personally predict Braun will be closer to my 80% projection than my median, but most people would lose a lot of money betting against decent algorithms.
as for laporta, i'm torn. I don't want to hamstring the 08 team because of a guy who may or may not be an impact player in a year or two ... but then again, moving Braun to left does have the potential of filling one gap and creating two. (stopgap 3B, plus long-term 3B, instead of just long-term LF). I suppose a really nice solution would be trading Sheets to the Dodgers for Andy LaRoche plus something, but as I've said elsewhere, I doubt Sheets will be traded, and for the wrong reasons.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 2:37 PM CST
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damnit.
by Jeff Sackmann on Dec 10, 2007 1:09 PM CST 0 recs
as noted in the update
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 1:43 PM CST
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Just for the sake of discussion...
by warwick5s on Dec 10, 2007 1:35 PM CST 0 recs
No Joe Crede
The real target, assuming that the Cards don't come back about Rolen, should be Tadahito Iguchi, who has averaged a .347 OBP and .768 OPS since coming to MLB from Japan. I'd take a risk on Rolen staying healthy and wanting to get back at the Cards even for a package of Cappy and a minor leaguer not named LaPorta or Parra.
by Chris on Dec 10, 2007 1:58 PM CST 0 recs
hamilton
by baumann on Dec 10, 2007 2:24 PM CST 0 recs
i'm totally in favor
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 2:33 PM CST
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Villy + Mench? :)
by roguejim on
Dec 10, 2007 2:46 PM CST
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Brandon Inge
Per the Fielding Bible, Inge is an exemplary defender, making 61 more plays than the average third basemen from 2005-2007 (second only to Pedro Feliz's +64).
UZR loves him too, as do Win Shares.
by Eric Simon on Dec 10, 2007 2:36 PM CST 0 recs
i stand corrected.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 2:38 PM CST
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Inge
by balldeagle on
Dec 11, 2007 10:33 AM CST
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I doubt he'd be hard to acquire
Now, Inge might be hard to acquire in the sense that we'd have to eat that salary ...he's making $6.5MM or so for each of the next three years. That's not exorbitant, and he might even be worth it, but we don't have that money free (AFAIK).
It's easy enough to come up with a scenario to free it up, though, starting by trading Capuano (probably the most expensive of our surplus starters) for prospects, basically dumping his salary from the 08 books.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 11, 2007 11:06 AM CST
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are we??????????????
by storminTAZZ on Dec 10, 2007 3:20 PM CST 0 recs
Braun v Early Rolen
In addition, Jeff's 50% projection for Braun probably compares favorably to Lee's projected numbers. Hence, even a Braun regressed to the mean posts satisfactory offensive numbers.
Analogizing Braun to Rolen could be difficult. Without having access to some defensive zone metrics, we don't know what kind of 3B Rolen was early in his career. For example, Zimmerman committed 22 errors last season. However, he posted the third best RZR of NL 3B (thanks to his 71 plays outside of zone). Thus, Rolen could have committed many errors but still made a great deal of plays.
And by the way, hello Brewcrew Ball. I have been lurking daily, sometimes multiple times per day, since opening day last year. I thought it was time to quit being creepy.
by mschroeder on
Dec 10, 2007 3:40 PM CST
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just compared
rolen made 24 the first year and 14 the second.
by storminTAZZ on
Dec 10, 2007 3:49 PM CST
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Errors
I will be happy to have Braun wherever he plays. I am just wondering if a move to LF plays less with his focus on raking at the plate than another year butchering balls at 3B.
by mschroeder on
Dec 10, 2007 4:08 PM CST
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welcome aboard!
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 4:15 PM CST
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mschroeder...
by MadJimiBrewha on
Dec 11, 2007 12:51 PM CST
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I am checking for cameras...
by mschroeder on
Dec 11, 2007 4:27 PM CST
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Check behind the wallclock...
by MadJimiBrewha on
Dec 11, 2007 5:48 PM CST
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Schneider Lab Josh?
I hope you're doing well. Finals must be fast approaching. Good luck.
PS - As I told Angie over an on-line bout of scrabble. I hate Marquette. That loss stung.
by mschroeder on
Dec 11, 2007 7:59 PM CST
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HPL? Human Prairie League?
by kgaul on
Dec 11, 2007 10:40 PM CST
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Zimmerman
The same can be said about Braun though, I'm sure throwing to Pujols (best defensive 1B in baseball) would have reduced those errors a good bit.
by Ender on
Dec 10, 2007 5:20 PM CST
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Braun's Errors
by kjbsam on Dec 10, 2007 3:50 PM CST 0 recs
Hamilton, Braun, Bill James 2008 Projections
I agree Hamilton would be ideal, especially if he stays healthy. How about Villy + middle reliever. The Reds have always seemed eager to stockpiling them.
Real question: how do you feel about Bill James' projections? It predicts Prince for a .388/.591/.979 line. However, his system loves Braun: .383/.660/1.042. Does his system weight AAA and MLB heavily into players with a season or so of data? You brought up Braun's unsustainable BABIP, similar to Hardball Times' writers. I agree it was high, but the bottom never fell out of it last season like Carty predicted.
Why do you predict the drop? I believe Carty bases it off Braun's high K rate and low BB rate. However, shouldn't Braun regress to the mean in his BB%. He averaged around 10% through the minors but only 6% last season. Such an increase could soften the drop. Nonetheless, you might have an entirely different basis for projections. I was just shocked to see the Bill James predictions for Braun since nearly everything else I read predicts a large regression from Braun's MVP-like offensive numbers last season.
by mschroeder on Dec 10, 2007 3:56 PM CST 0 recs
I haven't looked closely at Bill's projections
Those projections shock me ... to say that Braun will OUTperform last year's SLG ... that's just crazy.
My BABIP's are projected in large part on line drive percentage. For the most part, players with high OBPs have high LDPs too. Going from memory here, Braun is above average in LDP, but not THAT far above average. His LDP has bounced around a lot in the minors, so I'm not terribly confident in ANY projection for Braun, mine or otherwise.
My guess is that Bill's system either doesn't use minor league data (which would be a surprise) or is largely based on comps, and Braun has some great comps, like Miguel Cabrera or something. Maybe somebody else knows more about them than I do.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 10, 2007 4:19 PM CST
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Pottying on LaPorta
by willkoky on Dec 10, 2007 4:30 PM CST 0 recs
josh hamilton
by jimmyb1799 on Dec 10, 2007 8:16 PM CST 0 recs
Hamilton
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Reds-interested-in-Bedard?urn=mlb,56316
I would like to get Hamilton as well but the Reds first priority seems to be getting Bedard. Once that plays out then maybe they will be willing to talk about Hamilton (if he isn't part of the O's potential deal).
by molitorfan on
Dec 10, 2007 8:52 PM CST
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Thoughts:
by kgaul on Dec 10, 2007 9:46 PM CST 0 recs
torres!
Seems like Blalock is next on Melvin's wishlist. We heard this rumor earlier, but it did not seem likely. Maybe its changed!!!
by jimmyb1799 on Dec 10, 2007 9:49 PM CST 0 recs
Blalock
by TheJay on
Dec 10, 2007 9:56 PM CST
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Yeah I'm not high on
I think we should give Braun one more shot at 3rd base. If he's brutal again, then that's plenty of evidence he doesn't belong there.
That being said, a one year fill-in in left field would be perfect, and who better than Luke Scott? He's got a 125 career OPS+, has hit better on the road, bats left handed, and according to probabilistic model of range, he plays above average defense. The Brewers don't seem to be scared to trade within the division, and the Astros have outfielder overload with carlos lee, pence, and michael bourn. I have to believe the Astros would be willing to give him up.
by conan for president on Dec 10, 2007 10:52 PM CST 0 recs
indeed
still, luke scott is probably better that gross, and he wouldn't increase payroll any.
by baumann on
Dec 10, 2007 11:45 PM CST
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me either
by storminTAZZ on Dec 11, 2007 9:53 AM CST 0 recs
3b
i'm sick of platoons. get a guy that can hit righties and lefties and put him in there.
by Griswald on Dec 11, 2007 10:42 AM CST 0 recs
That got me thinking
Maybe it's just a result of the Menchkins overdose.
by roguejim on
Dec 11, 2007 11:03 AM CST
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I don't know
Personally, platoons make me think outfield, too, just because it seems teams are more willing to deal with guys that can't hit well in the infield.
by TheJay on
Dec 11, 2007 11:06 AM CST
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i just dont like the platoons...
by Jamie in LA on
Dec 11, 2007 12:14 PM CST
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I got a little lawyer for ya
But yeah, I think it's generally common to platoon at offensive positions, so there are sometimes platoons at first, but very rarely at shortstop.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Dec 11, 2007 11:07 AM CST
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Damn Jim
by hyattff2003 on
Dec 11, 2007 11:11 AM CST
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Yes, fine
by roguejim on
Dec 11, 2007 11:19 AM CST
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Forgetting Counsellino is Understandable
by shooty babitt on
Dec 11, 2007 11:44 AM CST
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me too
if they can bring in scott rolen, arguably the best 3b defender, i say pay him.
if it cost a pitcher (cappy/vargas/bush) and a prospecty player (gwynn/irribarren/escobar/nelson), i'd do it.
the cardinals are a smart team and know the value of defense, rolen is worth his contract and they are right to not want to send money. If they get a year or two from a #4/#5 type SP, one of those fringy MLs i listed above that's a good deal straight up for both sides.
another team that values defense correctly is going to swoop in and take rolen, i think, and after being opposed initially, i'm looking forward to this deal.
maybe it is because i'm used to melvin picking up guys coming off injury years... but i think it's the potential to pick up... what 4, or 5 games on defense alone? awesome upgrade... that upgrade alone is worth 20 million dollars a season.
if they move two of the three pitchers that frees up 2/3rds of rolen's salary...
i'm really not liking this gagne signing. he has to pitch a flawless 65-75 innings to be worth the upgrade from wise or mcclung...
by jacob on
Dec 11, 2007 11:33 AM CST
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If we do decide
If we decide to go with a short-term fill in, I think there are options better than craig counsell, joe crede, or scott rolen. Morgan Ensberg would do the trick. he's got power and patience. Maicer Izturis is another option, similar to counsell except a better hitter. Jeff Keppinger has never seen much time, but he has a nice minor league track record and appears to be a good fielder. All of these guys have very cheap contracts.
As far as tradeability, you'd have to think that one of Keppinger or Encarnacion would be available. Ensberg is blocked by Kouzmanoff and maybe even Headley. And Izturis is still listed as the #2 shortstop at espn.com (not sure how reliable that is), even with Cabrera getting traded.
I'd just hate to risk throwing Crede or Rolen out there with their injury history, and I'd really hate to see a .600 ops by Counsell at third base.
Lastly, I'm guessing we don't have anymore money to spend this winter, so if we want to make something happen, it will be by trading for a cheap 3rd base option.
by conan for president on Dec 11, 2007 11:20 AM CST 0 recs
Gamel
It seems we have a flaw in our minor league system when it comes to teaching defense.
by roguejim on
Dec 11, 2007 11:43 AM CST
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Or the team is focused on offense
by TheJay on
Dec 11, 2007 12:05 PM CST
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