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Coco's Contract

I meant to mention this the other day, but forgot.  The J-S reports on very preliminary talks between Coco and Moustache.  Doug, as usual, is saying all of the right things, and Coco, as expected, is doing the same:

"We'd like to keep him," said Melvin. "I've heard before that you can't pay a closer so much money. But if you don't have one, you're not where you're at. I've done it the cheap way and I've done it the other way."

Cordero said he appreciated the meeting with Melvin, who traded for him once before as general manager in Texas. If a deal can be worked out, Cordero said he would like to return to Milwaukee.

"I love what he said to me; it made me feel good," said Cordero. "I love Milwaukee, the players, management, the coaches and front office. And the fans have been great to me. We'll see what happens in the off-season."

Blah blah blah whatever whatever whatever, thank you for reminding me what players and GMs always say at this stage in the negotiation.

I hope--really, truly hope--that this is kind of like Doug's big, final offer to Carlos Lee before we traded him last year.  You know, good enough to make the radio hosts think we really wanted to keep him, but not crazy enough to actually convince him to stay.

Cordero will be massively expensive this offseason.  There's no getting around that.  He may be less expensive than he would've been had he gone on the market back in June, but he's still likely to be the best closer available.  Here's a list of potential free agents.  Depending on what is worked out with players and their present teams, Cordero could be the BJ Ryan of this off-season, paid like a prince because he's the only good option.

Mariano Rivera's contract is up, and while he's made noise about being willing to go elsewhere, do you really think that's going to happen?  I sure don't.  Eric Gagne will also be a free agent, but he's been spotty since moving to Boston.  And on top of that, the Sox may try to keep him.  Even if he hits the market, would you take Gagne (and his injury history) over Cordero?  I'm not sure I would.

Beyond that, you've got a list of has-beens and maybes.  Octavio Dotel and Jason Isringhausen both have options, and I wouldn't be surprised if both are exercised.  Unless you really like Armando Benitez (in which case you should probably be institutionalized) or you think Jorge Julio has a big comeback year coming (in which case you probably are already institutionalized), you've gotta admit the pickings are slim.

So, even in the best case (for the Brewers keeping Cordero, that is), he'll be one of two or three premium closers.  At age 33, he's likely to command at least a four-year deal, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was for Suppan money or more.  It may be true that a contending club can't pick a closer from the waiver wire, but do you want to spend that much of our payroll on a reliever?  One who Ned often forgets is available?

Anyway, we've been over this before, and it's not even clear that that money is available.  A lot of young players are due for raises, and we'll have other holes to fill.

Of course, if we let Coco go, somebody's got to close.  Turnbow doesn't look like an inspired choice at this point, and I'd rather see Villanueva in the rotation.  That leaves...don't tell me...Mitch Stetter?  There really aren't a lot of options within the organization, unless Team Canada wants to get creative and gamble with someone like Villy, Parra, or even Dave Bush.  (He was a closer in college, so his name must come up every time we have this discussion!)

What I'd like to see is Doug get creative looking outside the organization.  I don't have time today to pore over all the major league rosters, but maybe the Rockies would part with one of Brian Fuentes or Manuel Corpas, or one of Jose Valverde or Tony Pena could be pried from the D-Backs.  The cost would be high, of course--you gotta give value to get value--but what do you think about swapping Rickie Weeks in a deal for someone of that caliber?

We'll be talking a lot about this throughout the offseason, regardless of what direction the Coco negotiations go.  But I just want to go on record right now, and say to Doug, "Don't do it!  Let someone else make this mistake!"

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But
Joe Borowski has 41 saves! He must be awesome! I'm sure Todd Jones would agree that getting forty saves must mean you're doing something right.
Daily Ryan Braun leaderboard watch and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Sep 20, 2007 11:13 AM CDT   0 recs

In Response.
My thoughts:

This is where I come down on Jenkins as well. I know players want to get "paid what they're worth" or what they think they're worth, but this is where I think they have to ask themselves whats more important... Loyalty? Being with a good team? or Money?

For Cordero, I think the 'stache has to offer what he can to Coco, and if Coco doesn't take it, then I say "oh well."  There are other guys out there that I'd take (for less money) and I think we need to remind ourselves that our young infielders will be looking for a BIG payday down the road as well and I'd want to keep money to keep those young kids in Milwaukee more than keeping Coco here.

For Jenkins, I say "Here's 3 million. You take a pay cut or we let you go."  If Jenks wants to stay with the team he's been with for years, great... If not, he can "get paid" somewhere else...

Again, my biggest point is that the 4 IFs that we have, all are going to look for BIG contracts in the next few years, and we need to save money for them.

Notes on other choices.
All that being said...

  • Fuentes can probably be grabbed for way less than trading Rickie... Remember, he's been hurt and he blew 4 consecutive saves this season.
  • How much do you think it'd cost to get Joba (that's not his real name) Chamberlain?
  • How much do you think it'd cost to get Jonathon Broxton?
  • How much do you think it'd cost to get Scot Shields (LAA)?
Blast away at my choices
Hey Ned! Ever heard of small ball? Or are your balls too small?

by CATALYST on Sep 20, 2007 11:31 AM CDT   0 recs

good possibilities
I think you're right about Fuentes.  The other guys, especially Corpas and Pena, would cost Rickie.

I suspect that Joba and Broxton are untouchables.  Both are "closers of the future," basically one step away from being Jon Papelbon for their respective teams.  the Yanks and Dodgers know just how valuable they are, and if that means they are world-beating setup men for now, so be it.

Shields might be worth exploring...but given what it took to get Linebrink (a PROVEN VETERAN RELIEVER), I shudder to think of the cost for Shields, who is much better, and is signed relatively cheaply ($5M/yr) through 2010.  I don't see an obvious match in terms of the Angels needs, but I'd certainly take him.

Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Sep 20, 2007 11:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Jenks
I don't believe the Brewers could offer him 3 mil. Doesn't the CBA state that a team re-signing its own player, they can't decrease his yearly salary by more than 20%? If so, they'd have to pay him 7.2 mil. It would be different if he had played for, say, KC, and no one else was making offers. Is he worth 7.2 to stay? I don't know. That argument might work with Sheets, given his injury history and what seems to be a tremendous loyalty to Milwaukee. "Well Benny, here's what we're offering you, but we need to maintain flexibility to surround you with good players."
On the Coco issue, I'd say if we could sign him for $7-8 mil, we should. But we should also try to turn over most of the rest of our bullpen. I'm sure a couple of them can bounce back, but it's a pretty unimposing bunch right now. Can I get some clarification on the CBA salary rules?

by kgaul on Sep 20, 2007 7:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if he goes to arb
yes, the 20% rule is in effect.

hypothetically, let's say that Jenkins KNOWS that no team is interested in his services, and he'd have to take an NRI.  He could opt to sign a contract for whatever he wanted--the CBA doesn't restrict that.

But, that's obviously far-fetched.  If the Crew offered arby, he'd be crazy not to accept it, and at that point his salary would be guaranteed to drop no more than 20%, as you say.

Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Sep 20, 2007 9:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

His stats
.265/.325/.494/.818
21 HRs in 389 ABs

With a HR every 18 ABs or so, some team is going to want him.  

I'd take him back, actually, but only for 4.5-5 mil a season, and with the idea that he's only hitting against RHP.

(Of course, that assumes that we'd have someone to fill the role of Mench, or even Mench himself.  Man, I hate platoons.)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Sep 21, 2007 7:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm horribly confused now...
I always thought the 20% rule only applies to arbitration cases before the player becomes eligible for free agency, not cases like Graffanino's last year.

by Zeyes on Sep 21, 2007 12:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

jenkins
is getting 7 million this year. so the lowest arbitration figure he can be awarded is 5.6
Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Sep 21, 2007 8:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Joba is untouchable
The Yanks won't give him up.  He's part of their future starting rotation.
Ryan Braun is the Ed Hochuli of Third Basemen. Prince is now Chubber Lang

by hyattff2003 on Sep 21, 2007 8:30 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Melvin's creativity
Remember, Melvin's creativity when looking outside the organization is usually limited to scouring the waiver wire for someone he/Maddux can prop up as an effective player for a year or so.  Kolb, Turnbow are the prime RP examples; also applies to Podsednik and possibly Wise.  My point is that it is easily possible that the next guy to fill the "sensation" role is someone we haven't heard of yet.

That said, I would argue (and hope many would agree) that pinning hopes of a rebuilding team on a waiver wire pickup is one thing, but doing so with a contending team is foolish at best.  But at today's costs, what choice does Melvin have?

"It's called 'playing the percentages.'" --C. M. Burns

by hilbelink on Sep 20, 2007 11:52 AM CDT   0 recs

not just waiver claims.
"Melvin's creativity when looking outside the organization is usually limited to scouring the waiver wire"

that's generally true about relievers, but I think that doesn't give him enough credit.

This is the guy that got Dave Bush from the Blue Jays, Vargas/Estrada from the D-Backs, Jose Capellan from the Braves (we were all excited about it then, anyway), and--oh yeah--Cordero, when nobody was talking about him being available, and he was 1.5 years away from free agency.

That's a better track record of prying talent away from other teams that most GMs can claim.  The fact that he's done so well with waiver claims is icing on the cake.

Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Sep 20, 2007 12:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the first thing you do
when looking for a closer, is not look for closers.

Do you know what i mean? As soon as a guy starts closing out games their price sky rockets.

Better, i say, to go after a Linebrink type, a setup guy who's fallen out of favor. Or a AAA guy who's got great stuff but is struggling as a starter.

Really they just need to be able to get three or four outs without losing the game maybe 85% of the time. Having Cordero for '08 and beyond would be a luxury. Having someone like Cordero is not a necessity.

I think the closer role is overrated even by those who say it is overrated. You just want the best possible pitchers in your pen, i don't think teams look to fringe starters enough, either.

The greatest luxury afforded by having someone like Cordero in the pen is that it is one lest inning a manager can screw up. But if you pay enough attention to matchups, and have very good pitchers in the bullpen you can get by just fine without a stud.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Sep 20, 2007 12:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Point taken.
Maybe I should have phrased it differently, by changing "...is usually limited to scouring..." to "...tends to favor scouring...".

Better?

"It's called 'playing the percentages.'" --C. M. Burns

by hilbelink on Sep 20, 2007 2:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's not forget...
the Sexson to Arizona trade that would, after subsequent trades, account for almost 1/2 our team.

by kgaul on Sep 20, 2007 7:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Other options?
I'm going out on a limb for these guys, so don't laugh. They've had good seasons but they might just be flashes in the pan. Anyway, Justin Miller and Kevin Gregg from Florida and Jon Rauch of the Nationals have been alright out east. They'd all be pretty cheap options, though cheap obviously doesn't matter as much as, say, talent. :)
Daily Ryan Braun leaderboard watch and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Sep 20, 2007 11:53 AM CDT   0 recs

not laughing
good picks, one and all, especially Rauch.  Bowden seems to put a very high price on his guys, so I doubt anything would get done, but I like the thought.
Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Sep 20, 2007 12:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

doesn't Rauch
have a bad injury history?

by molitorfan on Sep 20, 2007 6:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think that the
shine really came off of Weeks this year, but he started to change that a bit of late.  Do you really think that a trade of #23 would net one of these elite "closers in waiting?"  

This is kind of why I've been kicking around the trade Sheets idea lately....the whole trade value/get value thing.  It just seems to me that we need WAY more help next year in the reliever/closer department than we do at starter.  I also agree with the sentiment that I don't want to keep getting "scrap heap" guys....

Just as a question: Take all of the arms mentioned so far...(Valverde, Joba, Broxton, Shields et all).  If Sheets were dangled, wouldn't the teams that want to play the "off-limits" game on those guys have to listen?  Couldn't Sheets net 2 legitimate arms for the pen?  It seems easier to replace a #3-#4 starter via FA, than to replace an elite closer via the same method.

Again to everyone, I realize we love Ben....I love him too.  I just feel we're weaker (especially in '08) at the back end of the pen than the front.  I'm just trying to gauge what the trade might be worth....that's all.

If A-Rod hits A-Bombs, does Fielder hit F-Bombs? It's dumb I know....

by Adam P on Sep 20, 2007 12:22 PM CDT   0 recs

Sheets
For Joba Chamberlain and Edwar Ramirez from the Yanks?  I'd be very tempted.
Hey Ned! Ever heard of small ball? Or are your balls too small?

by CATALYST on Sep 20, 2007 12:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

CAN WE
Throw Ned into the trade and get Torre back?
Hey Ned! Ever heard of small ball? Or are your balls too small?

by CATALYST on Sep 20, 2007 1:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

At any price
Cordero must be signed, and I don't care what the cost.

Why?

They have a graphic that shows on the ribbon board when Cordero enters the game.  It shows COCO COCO COCO on one side and KKKKKKKKKKKKKKK on the other side, and then the two sides move toward and past each other.  In that split-second, the sign says COCK.  And it's everywhere the ribbon board goes.

Some nights, it's the only good part of being at the game.

by Marty McSuperFly on Sep 20, 2007 12:43 PM CDT   0 recs

FYI Marty,
The Postgame show on 1250 AM was giving your site a little love last night....don't know if you heard it.  
If A-Rod hits A-Bombs, does Fielder hit F-Bombs? It's dumb I know....

by Adam P on Sep 20, 2007 1:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

nice
We usually see a pretty big bump in traffic after losses, and today was a little bigger, so maybe it's the extra radio attention.

by Marty McSuperFly on Sep 20, 2007 1:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Just to let you know the context...
Someone called in and suggested that they start a website called "SendMattWiseDowntoAAA.com"...

One of the hosts responded, "Well....There's already a Fire Ned Yost. com, so that's not a bad idea..."

Your shit is going global, man.

If A-Rod hits A-Bombs, does Fielder hit F-Bombs? It's dumb I know....

by Adam P on Sep 20, 2007 1:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Does Tim Allen
still host the radio show?  I blogged for their myspace last year.
Ryan Braun is the Ed Hochuli of Third Basemen. Prince is now Chubber Lang

by hyattff2003 on Sep 21, 2007 8:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yep
along with his annoying co-host sparky
"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue

by Michael M on Sep 21, 2007 12:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

HAAAAAAAAAAAA! awesome.
its like im there seeing it myself...
Yost puts Cordero in for more than three outs??? What a genius!!!! Manager of the year!!!

by Jamie in LA on Sep 20, 2007 1:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow..
I think a little pee just leaked out.  Thank god theres no one in the office today...

by SgtClueLs on Sep 20, 2007 1:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I just can't see
paying CoCo the money other teams will fork over.  

Closers are made and not born.  We turned Danny Kolb and Derrick Turnbow into all-stars; we can do it again.  

I once liked Villy for it, but he really does seem better suited as a starter.  (It's no coincidence that we're winning again now that our starters have remembered how to pitch.)

If you're looking for someone to get out of jams...how about Vargas?  His whole season has been putting people on and then getting out of the inning.

Linebrink might actually be the Brewer with the best closer-in-waiting numbers.

Sheets would be lights-out as a closer, and, in theory, would be less susceptible to on-field injuries...

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Sep 20, 2007 1:23 PM CDT   0 recs

vargas might not be too bad.
Yost puts Cordero in for more than three outs??? What a genius!!!! Manager of the year!!!

by Jamie in LA on Sep 20, 2007 2:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

don't overpay for a closer
I think we're overemphasizing the role because the rest of our bullpen is stinking up the place lately. Lets not forget that back in July and August, it was our starters who were really letting us down.

Two years ago, we thought we were in bad shape losing Kolb, and Turnbow ended up being lights out, last year he was horrible after the break, but we got Coco who had been blowing games for Texas.  Look at the Jays who lost BJ Ryan only to see Accardo emerge as a stud.  

by keephopealive on Sep 20, 2007 3:38 PM CDT   0 recs

it seems obvious to me...
that we should trade for kerry wood.
YoGanna win with Gallardo on the mound.

by Griswald on Sep 20, 2007 3:38 PM CDT   0 recs

in-house options
Mark DiFelice! No, just kidding. Still, I suppose we'd be looking for a guy with at least decent control who also keeps the ball in the ballpark...maybe Steve Bray? He doesn't really have much left to prove in the minors after throwing more than 160 IP with a sub-2.00 ERA over the last two years.

by Zeyes on Sep 20, 2007 4:16 PM CDT   0 recs

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