Brew Crew Ball: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Want to help build SB Nation? We're hiring! Bar-right-arrows



Dayn Perry Doesn't Have What It Takes...

...and neither do the Cubs.

Perry wrote this article yesterday, claiming the Cubs are the better team headed into 2008.  I think it's probably too early to make any such claim, especially since the Brewers are at least one (reasonably big) move away from finalizing the starting rotation and opening-day lineup.

Even once that move is made, the Cubs and Brewers will look awfully close on paper.  Let's take a look at how Perry came to his half-baked conclusion.

First, he looks at the starting lineups, position-by-position.  He gives the nod to the Brewers at 5 of the 8 spots--all except LF (Soriano vs. LaGrynn), catcher, and RF, which he calls a push.  If I disagree at all, it's that this lame method doesn't do justice to the Cubs.  Soriano is WAY better than whoever the Brewers will throw out there in LF, while Fielder and Braun aren't overwhelmingly superior to D-Lee and A-Ram.  There's an awful lot of close calls here, and finishing your analysis with "5-2-1" is an easy, but misleading, way to get your column done.

I do agree up to this point, though: the Crew has the edge on offense.  It isn't a big one, though.

Next, the starting rotations.  Perry doesn't break it down spot by spot, instead just giving this summary:

Potentially, this is a big edge for the Cubs. The back end of the Chicago rotation is problematic, but Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly and Rich Hill make for a strong front three. ...If Sheets is unable to throw 200 innings -- something he hasn't done since 2004 -- then give a big edge to the Cubs.

If not, then...what?  Let's take a closer look.

  1. Zambrano vs. Sheets: Give the edge to Carlos for durability reasons.  This is a tough one to call, because, as Perry notes, is Sheets is healthy, he could very well be the better of the two.

  2. Gallardo vs. Hill: Another tough call: Gallardo has the potential to be more dominant, but we haven't seen him over the course of a season.  Call it a push.

  3. Suppan vs. Lilly: A push.  A Cubs fan will show up and strongly dispute this, despite not understanding the idea of FIP, in 3, 2, 1...

  4. Bush vs. Marquis: last year, Marquis was better; the year before, it was Bush; Bush is younger; I'd say this is a push.

  5. Dempster vs. Capuano: Capuano is probably the better pitcher, despite his struggles last year.  If Cappy is traded and Vargas gets this spot, it's a push or a slight edge to the Cubs.

  6. Vargas/Villanueva/Parra vs. Marshall/???: Big edge to the Brewers.  It's a safe bet that both of these teams will need 20+ starts from guys outside of their front 5, and the Brewers have at least one guy who would crack a whole lot of MLB rotations.

This is definitely not a big edge to the Cubs.  Nearly everyone routinely underestimates the importance of rotation depth.  Doug Melvin does not.  Sheets's fragility is a problem, but I don't know that there are any teams is baseball better prepared to deal with the loss of their ace than the Brewers.

It's impossible to give a final verdict here until Melvin makes a move with the pitching staff, but if Capuano stays, I give the edge to the Crew.

Finally, the bullpen.  Again, Perry sticks with a one-paragraph summary:

The Cubs ranked second in the NL in bullpen ERA last season, while the Brewers ranked ninth. That obvious advantage for the Cubs is even greater now that Francisco Cordero is in Cincinnati. Eric Gagne may wind up as an effective closer for the Brewers, but given his struggles in Boston last season he's something less than a known quantity going forward. On the other hand, David Riske was one of the best value signings of the winter. The Cubs, meanwhile, have an excellent middle-relief corps, and Kerry Wood figures to give them the dominating, shutdown closer they've lacked for so long. Consider this another edge for Chicago.

I know Dayn is a smart guy, but smart people write stupid paragraphs sometimes.  Please, please tell me why Gagne is "less than a known quantity going forward" and Wood is "the dominating, shutdown closer they've lacked for so long."  I understand that Gagne isn't a sure thing, but if we're questioning him, I'd say Wood deserves just as much skepticism.  At the very least, Kerry is no guarantee for six months of health.

The Cubs did, in fact, have a more effective pen than the Crew did last year, but there are few comparisons less appropriate to the subject at hand.  Marmol/Wuertz/Howry/Eyre is a nice group, sure, but the Brewers pen they'll stack up against this year is (duh!) barely related to their colleagues last year.  I'd say Riske = Howry, Shouse > Eyre, Wuertz = either Torres or Mota, and Marmol is a clear win over Turnbow.  If Marmol stays the closer, I'd say he's even with Gagne, and Wood is much less likely to be a clear win over Turnbow.

The wild card is dependent on the Brewers rotation--if Mota gets canned to make room for both Villanueva and Parra, that's an unusually deep pen for us.  If Mota doesn't get canned, that probably means he's pitching pretty well.

All in all, I'm willing to concede a slight advantage to the Cubs bullpen, but I wouldn't put money on it.

All the other details are just quibbling.  Defense is important, and the Cubs are better at it, but I think most of the offensive position comparisons stand even considering defense.  (Maybe Braun loses to A-Ram, maybe Fielder vs. Lee is a push.)  The bench isn't going to make much of a difference.  I'm disappointed that Perry dignified managers with as many paragraphs as the starting rotation.

Long story short, these are two pretty evenly-matched teams.  The Brewers have the higher upside, with the possibility of a full season from Sheets, a few promising young pitchers, and a younger offense.  With that higher upside comes a little more risk, though the team is reasonably well-equipped to withstand a loss or two in the rotation.

0 recs | Comment 28 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Dayn Perry
has to be related to Laynce and Jayson Nix.  There cannot be multiple families that utilize the unnecessary "y"

by The Prospector on Jan 6, 2008 9:28 PM CST   0 recs

Unless, of course
its supposed to be like "dayne" and not "dan" in which case, disregard previous message.

by The Prospector on Jan 6, 2008 9:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

i like that currently...
66% of 5990 people voted that they think the cubs will win the division.  

we can all agree that more cubs fans have read this silly article.

I got the Worst Christmas Gift ever!

by Jamie in LA on Jan 6, 2008 11:49 PM CST   0 recs

He sounds understated
compared to Chitown talk radio. Before they got Fukudome, it was pretty much assumed that Cubs would win the division. Now it is described as something that is "easy." Its widely assumed that they will get the second base guy from the Orioles, I believe, and pick up another starter as well. Payroll seems unlimited. Not sure what they plan to give up to get the 2nd baseman.

As to starting rotation, Big Z seems like a 50/50 prospect every time he goes out. Lilly pretty good. Marshall seems dependent on that high fastball. Will the league and especially the Brewcrew learn to lay off that thing? Marquis not very good, but the kind of guy the Brewers struggle against. Who was their fifth? That sure doesn't sound so awesome to me.

When I think of the bullpen, it doesn't seem like a lot of talent, but sweet Lou is pretty good at handling it. Maybe I just like him because he reminds me of some guy who would be drinking at the old National Liquor Bar. Marmol was exceptional, but he looked totally shocked when he got hit hard - I mean shocked. Will he melt down if some of those sliders start getting golfed out?

And Soriano doesn't seem like he can be counted on for a full season. He's got that great quick, accurate throw to get runners but he ain't much at fielding IIRC.

Fukudome better do well or he'll rue the day he signed a four year contract. I'm sure the drunk fans in right field will learn how to refer to inadequate male parts in Japanese if he struggles and the media will go on and on. They're wailing at the "bust" Ben Wallace for the Bulls.

by ol Pete on Jan 7, 2008 9:33 PM CST   0 recs

you beat me to it
i was just about to post something along those lines. i don't listen to chicago sports radio often but a few of the stations come in really clear in milwaukee and you'd think they'd already played the season the way they talk. i just don't get it. the teams were pretty much even last year, and the cubs have somehow made these brillant moves that have catapulted them way above the brewers?
YoGanna win with Gallardo on the mound.

by Griswald on Jan 7, 2008 10:31 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Gagne might wind up as "effective"
I'm glad a pitcher a couple seasons removed from the best relief campaign in history has so much upside!  I mean, no way will he be as excellent and dominant as Kerry Wood, but Gagne might actually be effective!!!
2008: The Year of #8

by stevie ray Braun on Jan 7, 2008 10:37 PM CST   0 recs

Sorry I'm late.
Apparently you need a Cubs fan to debate Suppan vs. Lilly?

Lilly, xFIP & FIP: 4.39, 4.16
Suppan, xFIP & FIP: 4.85, 4.30

So, even if we do understand DIPS, a case could be made that Lilly is better than Suppan. It's not even hard. Okay, but not by a whole heck of a lot. But Suppan is still a low-strikeout, groundball pitcher in front of a pretty miserable infield defense. Looking at TotalZone (I happened to have it open anyway), the only Brewers infielder above average is JJ Hardy, at +3 runs. Everyone else is either dead last or one above it.

As far as rotation depth - eh. The Cubs have Sean Gallagher and Kevin Hart on the back end, both with good track records at AAA last season. Either of them have at least the potential to match up with Villanueva or Vargas. Whether or not the Cubs organization will give them sufficent chances or not is really the question.

by cwyers on Jan 8, 2008 12:27 AM CST   0 recs

One season for the FIP thing?
Really? That's all you're going to use? I can see how saying Lilly's xFIP over the last four years has been 4.98, 5.02, 4.77, 4.39 would hurt your argument, but come on. Given that Suppan over the same stretch has put up 4.73, 4.55, 4.86, 4.85, what were you saying about them again?
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Jan 8, 2008 4:04 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'm guessing that the DH and the AL...
...has something to do with Lilly's higher xFIP in that time period. Whether or not it accounts for the full difference is something that I'm going to have to put more work into. (Unless I'm missing something, Hardball Times isn't applying park or league factors to the xFIP components. If I'm missing something, I'd love to know before I go building a spreadsheet or so.)

by cwyers on Jan 8, 2008 8:54 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'm just amazed
at finding a rational cubs fan period, let alone one that brings stats to back up his arguments.  I have to say that you have been the best that has swung by here.
I saw the overcrowded marketplase that is the brewers blogs and said, "Me Too!" www.chubberlang.blogspot.com

by hyattff2003 on Jan 9, 2008 3:45 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hyattff
the link to your blog is broken.  did you forget to put the address in the href="..." part of the tag?  It just tries to go to a page at brewcrewball.

by newguy on Jan 10, 2008 10:04 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Always with the stats...
If I had a choice, I'd take Lilly over Suppan, but an argument could be made that Suppan was better than Lilly. Regardless, Lilly will probably be your best pitcher. Suppan may end up being the third, fourth or fifth best on the Brewers. And I hope Lilly's nightmare in the ever so brief playoffs doesn't carry over.

Good job at getting that dig in on defensive statistics. I can't believe how many people believe attempts at estimates, which is what you are using, are akin to a DNA match. The Cubs aren't without their defensive problems. Soriano, Theriot, your 2nd base crew or the mystery players who will play when Soriano, Lee and Ramirez are injured.

And the Cubs have potential all over the place, from Pie to Soto to your BP prospects and Marmol. Hell, even Fukudome is "potential." What that is, is a lot of "ifs." If Zell or whoever is doing the Gordon Gekko routine on the Cubs succeeds, it could mean the end to Yankee payrolls. If...

by ol Pete on Jan 8, 2008 5:36 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Ummm
I don't disagree with a lot of this, except the very end.

Either of them have at least the potential to match up with Villanueva or Vargas.

If the Cubs could put Vargas as their #5, I think they Wood.  As for Villanueva, I would be surprised if he didn't outpitch any Cub starter not named Zambrano.  OK, maybe Hill.  Maybe.  But I think he'll push Suppan down to our #4 starter by the break.

I think that'll be asking a lot of your AAA guys.  Heck, WE have AAA guys with good stats...

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Jan 8, 2008 3:11 AM CST   0 recs

Hey now.
The Cubs can have real prospects too, y'know. <G> Sickles gave Gallagher a B in his prospect evaluation, compared to a B+ for Parra. FWIW. I've been accused of having a mancrush on Gallagher before.

I don't know about Vargas - his last ERA+ over 100 was in 2003, coincidentally his first and only such year. I wouldn't even call him an innings eater type. Granted in this case he's matching up with Dempster (I guess - the Cubs have backed off on some of those comments, saying he'll get a chance to compete with Hart/Gallagher/Marshall for the 5 spot, and go back to the bullpen if he can't outpitch them).

by cwyers on Jan 8, 2008 9:57 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

thoughts
Gallardo vs. Hill: Another tough call: Gallardo has the potential to be more dominant

Not so sure about this...

People tend to forget how dominatant Hill was in the minors.  Gallardo had better overall minor league numbers than Hill, but not significantly so, especially if you only look at Hill's last few years in the minors.  

I also think that you overvalue the Brewers bullpen and undervalue the Cubs bullpen, as well as undervaluing Marshall.  Don't forget that Eyre pitched very, very well in the second half of the season.  He is a bit of an unknown, but it wouldn't surprise me if he pitches as well, if not better, than Shouse.

But I do think you are right... the teams are relatively even.

by cubfan on Jan 8, 2008 9:39 AM CST   0 recs

I think it's a lot safer to say that Eyre...
...was kept out of situations where he had a chance to do real damage.

As for Gallardo - he pitched 187.6 innings last year, well over his previous career high of 155. The Brewers are going to have to be careful about not overextending that young arm of his. Hill, on the other hand, has hit just under 200 innings the past two seasons, and is actually six years older than Gallardo, which means his shoulder should be a bit better developed to handle a full season. That means a lot of different things long term. But for next season I think you can reasonably expect more quality innings out of Hill, while Gallardo is probably going to hit a wall at some point.

by cwyers on Jan 8, 2008 9:48 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

A 37 inning increase from one year to the next
is a little more than I think they would have preferred to put on him, but with Sheets injury and the pennant race, it would have been criminal not to throw Gallardo out there as often as they did.

The damage, if there is any, is done.  At 187 innings pitched last year, he's in position to hit 200 innings without much more stretching. That's all they'll expect from him anyway.  There's still the risk of catastrophic injury, as there is with any pitcher, but as far as the over-use type of health problems I think he'll be fine if he gets out of spring training with a live arm.  

Hitting the wall at some point next year is a possibility and I think he had a couple of terrible outings when he neared the 150 inning mark last season, but he collected himself and did well towards the end of the season.  I don't see any reason to suspect he would "hit the wall" before 200 innings, when it becomes a possibility with virtually any pitcher.  

 

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 8, 2008 1:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Oops. 32 innings.
That's why I pursued degrees in the humanities  instead of math...

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 8, 2008 5:39 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Signings
Not really "news," but the brewers officially signed these guys to ML contracts, i guess:

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/07/brewers-sign-five-players-to-major-league-deals/

by em3 on Jan 8, 2008 10:32 AM CST   0 recs

more upside
I completely agree with the final point you made that says the Brewers have more upside than do the Cubs.  Parra, Gallardo, Bush, and Cappy have the chance to be far better than they were last year...not to mention Sheets if he can stay healthy (which, sadly, I doubt).  The Cubs have veteran, proven guys that are close to the downward spin of their careers.

With that said, Lilly and Marquis performed much better than I thought they would.  Marmol and Wood will be tough at the end of the bullpen, as well.  

It will not be fun to play the Cubbies, but they have their weak links.  We have ours too, obviously, but neither teams are done making moves.  Sounds like the Cubs are on Brian Roberts' trail...that wouldn't be the best news for the Crew...

Come check out BrewersNation, a new Brewers blog that keeps you up to date on ALL Brewers news and rumors. http://sportsnationjb.blogspot.com/

by jimmyb1799 on Jan 8, 2008 11:26 AM CST   0 recs

Marcels, Suppan v. Lilly
.        Year   Rel.   ERA    IP      Hit   K     BB   HR   WHIP   K/G   BB/G  HR/G
Lilly    2008   0.81   4.20   182.0   173   151   66   25   1.31   7.5   3.3   1.20
Suppan   2008   0.82   4.62   182.0   206   107   64   19   1.48   5.3   3.2   0.90

It's funny, but i think if i'm the cubs i'd rather have suppan for the HR & GB rates, and if I'm the brewers i'd rather have Lilly for the K rates.

For me, comparing the rotations, while the brewers are far deeper, it's the top of the rotation where the biggest difference is made. I'd take 2008 sheets, and 2008 gallardo both over zambrano. i'd go like this:

  1. sheets
  2. gallardo
  3. zambrano
  4. hill
  5. lilly
  6. suppan
  7. bush
  8. capuano
  9. villanueva
  10. vargas
  11. marquis
  12. parra
  13. gallagher
  14. marshall
  15. dempster
  16. glendon rusch
  17. hart
now, if you do pitching + defense it's the cubs, probably easily. but just straight pitching i think the brewers win both on depth and dominance.

i think villanueva is the wildcard who can put the brewers over the top, and i think the cream city crusher rotation is underrated because people don't realize yet that gallardo is an ace.

also, bold prediction here, i think sheets and gallardo both pitch more innings than zambrano this year. it's a pretty rare feat to pitch 200+ innings in 5 straight years, and his mechanics were all over the place last year, not only start to start, but pitch to pitch. of course, if he's healthy, he's primed to post his career season, he is still only 27.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jan 9, 2008 12:09 PM CST   0 recs

zips ERA projections
zips ERA projections:

gallardo 3.66
sheets 3.72
parra 4.31
villanueva 4.46
capuano 4.48
bush 4.64
suppan 4.76
vargas 4.99

zambrano 3.70
hill 3.88
lilly 4.24
gallagher 4.91
marshall 4.97
marquis 5.06
veal 5.72
hart 5.73

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jan 10, 2008 9:48 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Rich Hill?
I'm not sure why Hill is still ranked so highly, he's been wildly inconsistent and will be 28 next year.  I'd easily rather have Lilly, Suppan, and definitely Gallardo over Hill.
2008: The Year of #8

by stevie ray Braun on Jan 9, 2008 12:35 PM CST   0 recs

consistent
actually, i think last year he was pretty consistent as far as pitchers go.

also, the year before the cubs wouldn't let him pitch up in the zone, which is the bread to his curveball butter.

he's got more upside than lilly and suppan. i think he'll have a better '08 than both of them.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jan 9, 2008 1:52 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Mike Cameron
Turns out the Brewers are interested in him!  Much better then Gonzalez or Lofton.  

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/09/brewers-interested-in-mike-cameron/

by ET90210 on Jan 9, 2008 9:37 PM CST   0 recs

Cameron
Mike Cameron would be terrible to have on the Brewers.  We do not need another power-hitter with a high strikeout rate.  He hit .245 last year.  The Brewers would be much better off with someone like Lofton, who has a much higher OBP.  

Not to mention Cameron is suspended for the first 25 games of the season.  Here's to hoping they sign Lofton over Cameron!

Come check out BrewersNation, a new Brewers blog that keeps you up to date on ALL Brewers news and rumors. http://sportsnationjb.blogspot.com/

by jimmyb1799 on Jan 9, 2008 11:45 PM CST   0 recs

more free agent news
Turns out the Brewers are interested in many outfield free agents this offseason.  More than I had heard of...
Come check out BrewersNation, a new Brewers blog that keeps you up to date on ALL Brewers news and rumors. http://sportsnationjb.blogspot.com/

by jimmyb1799 on Jan 10, 2008 7:04 PM CST   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Brew Crew Ball is made with whole grains and contains bits of real grit. It's the perfect dessert for a playoff berth that's been in the crock pot for 26 years. Guaranteed to enhance your sarcasm and sense of irony!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Images_small
A quick rant that has nothing to do with anything.
61427post_foto_small
Rumorville: The Other Cordero
61427post_foto_small
Rumorville: Trevor Hoffman
61427post_foto_small
Rumorville: Mark Mulder
61427post_foto_small
Exiting Rumorville: Braden Looper
Prince-fielder-r_small
Hyatt's Fantasy Baseball Preview: OF
Prince-fielder-r_small
Hyatt's Fantasy Baseball Guide: SS
Prince-fielder-r_small
Hyatt's Fantasy Baseball Guide: 3B
Prince-fielder-r_small
Hyatt's Fantasy Baseball Guide: 2B
Prince-fielder-r_small
Hyatt's Fantasy Baseball Guide: 1B

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

Featured Poll

Poll
Now that the pitching market is starting to dwindle, has your opinion changed on Ben Sheets?

  292 votes | Results

90 - 72

7.5

Lost 1

0

NL Central Standings

W L PCT GB STRK
Chicago 97 64 .602 0 Lost 4
Milwaukee 90 72 .555 7.5 Lost 1
Houston 86 75 .534 11 Won 1
St. Louis 86 76 .530 11.5 Won 6
Cincinnati 74 88 .456 23.5 Lost 5
Pittsburgh 67 95 .413 30.5 Won 1

(updated 1.7.2009 at 9:45 AM CST)

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Rob Wooten Day
Catching Prospects
Rumorville: Prince Fielder
MLBTR - Turnbow Agrees
Angels sign FUentes, Cubs trade DeRosa
ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME?!? (d-lowe offer)
Rumorville: One that may have fell through the cracks
Seth McClung is a Popular Guy
Ode to spring.

I like the snow as much as anybody who likes snow. I even don't dread shoveling. Still, I find myself anxious for spring. 

Why?

I can't wait to play hookey from work or school and make it to a game at Miller Park. I want to have the money I save now go to a goal other than just tuition and bills. I want to sit behind home plate and watch Brauny hit a monstrous homer.

And that, my friends, is all I want for Christmas - spring.
"The Angels had a better record than us and the Blue Jays, and the Brewers...

Post_icon New FanShot All FanShots Carrot-mini


Moderators

61427post_foto_small roguejim

Mordecai_brown_small Jeff Sackmann

Cowswithguns_small battlekow

Images_small KLSnow

Contributors

Small John

Small dixieflatline

Turtle_small TheJay

ad

Site Meter