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No! No Cameron!

I just read an post at Al's Ramblings with a link, presumably of an article to be run in the Urinal-Sentinel soon, about a serious interest in Mike Cameron. As Haudricourt points out, though, Cameron is the opposite of what Melvin said he's looking for. The Brewer's have been seeking a LH bat with a high(er) OBP for left or third. Cameron is RH, and his OBP isn't real good. When I saw the paragraph about his penchant for striking out(160 times in 07), my first response was, "that's the last guy we need." Thoughts?

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I would rather have Lofton
even if Cameron wasn't suspended for the first 25 games of next season.  This signing seems absurd, and I hope it doesn't happen.
2008: The Year of #8

by stevie ray Braun on Jan 9, 2008 10:20 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Urinal Sentinel?
no to this signing.

bring me lofton, even if he is 487 years old.

I got the Worst Christmas Gift ever!

by Jamie in LA on Jan 9, 2008 11:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Meh
I don't think Jamie's right about Lofton's age.  Lofton's nowhere near 487.  I think he's only in his 460s.  (It just seems like 487.)

I guess I'm not thrilled about any of the options being discussed.  I'd like Lofton a whole lot better if he weren't so bad against lefites [2007 OPS: .545].  Gonzo's really old and anecdotally has a noodle for a throwing arm, but he approaches credible from both sides of the plate on offense.

As for Cameron...

  • His stats are here.  The JS Blog report is here and here.
  • I mentioned this elsewhere, but in 2005, he played almost entirely in right field for the Mets.  In theory, we could move Corey Hart to left and keep Billy in centerfield.
  • There's reason to think Moustache knows what he's doing.  Cameron had a pretty bad season last year, but was pretty good in 2006, where he set a career high in OPS (.837) and had his highest OBP (.355) since 2000, all in a pitcher's park.  I still give Moustache the benefit of the doubt, even if he has missed on outfielders in the past (TGH).  If we can coax a repeat of 2006, it'd be a fine signing, though I certainly wouldn't bet on it.
  • He just turned 35 this week, a spring chicken compared to his would-be competitors.
  • His splits are interesting: although he tends to hit lefties better than righties (.914/.700 OPS in 2007, .843/.767 career), in his fabled 2006 season, he was better against RHP, .844 vs. 810.  I'd presume we wouldn't platoon him.
  • He won't be playing in the team's first 25 games aftre a suspension for banned stimulants.  This would be quite the reputation we're developing.
  • FWIW, if we signed Cameron, I assume we'd be set for our lineup (assuming that we'd move him/Billy/Corey/Ryan around in some configuration).  Given our plethora of pitching, I'd also assume that any trades involving our pitchers would be for prospects, then?  It seems to me it's easier to swing a deal when you have a need, like for a leftfielder.  Maybe it's only me, but getting our rotation taken care of is as pressing a need as signing an ancient leftfielder.
  • For the record, I'll still be pissed if we traded Billy Hall, especially if it's precipitated by signing Cameron.  
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Jan 10, 2008 12:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

i know it has been mentioned before many times...
but what makes me crazy is that we aren't willing to move him back to the infield; but we are willing to trade him to a team that will most certainly play him there.

i dont like the idea of signing cameron, but it could be worse; doug could be pursuing this guy...

I got the Worst Christmas Gift ever!

by Jamie in LA on Jan 10, 2008 1:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree 100%
Granted, Bill E. Hall is old by Brewer standards (he just turned 29), but if I had to pick between Hall and Cameron, I'd go with Hall --- who, lest we forget, is younger and presumably cheaper.

If you must trade him, why now?  His 2007 was his first season in three years as a regular with an OPS below .800.  (I forgot that he hit .291 in 500 ABs in 2005!)

I'm just hoping that I'll wake up tomorrow and find that this was all a dream.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Jan 10, 2008 2:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not that weird, I guess
I'm sure other teams see him as having more value for them at third base than the Brewers do. After all, if you have Ryan Braun at third base, defense issues and all, moving Hall back doesn't seem like much of an improvement overall. If you're a team that's seen guys like Abraham Nunez and Wes Helms every day at third, trading for Hall might be quite attractive (I don't know that the Phillies are interested, but they're a handy example).

I hope all these names thrown out today are just a reaction to the lack of Brewers news lately. It wouldn't surprise me if a routine call to all the agents of the players on Tom H's list was morphed into "serious talks."

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Jan 10, 2008 11:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a feeling
that that last sentence you wrote is exactly what is going to happen

by Bigdogg2002 on Jan 10, 2008 12:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's a dream.
But that's just speculation.  While I'd rather have Lofton myself, it seems pretty clear to me that the thought process is to play Cameron in Center, move Hall back to 3rd, and slide Braun to Left.  Personally, I think that's asking for trouble since you're moving two of your own players to accomodate a guy whose offensive numbers don't justify finding a place for him.  

But.  There's some available logic that supports the move.  Cameron would appear to be an improvement defensively in center over Hall, and Hall almost certainly would be an improvement defensively over Braun at 3rd.  Braun will probably struggle defensively in left, particularly early, but the available LF's out there appear to be no more than adequate defensively, at best.  Theoretically, the defensive upgrade at Center and 3rd would over come the diminished defensive performance in LF.  Then there's Hall's offensive production.  The argument that the move to Center made him focus so much on defense that his offensive stats suffered doesn't make much sense to me.  Far less than the available conclusion that 2007 was simply a regression to the mean and that 2006 was a statistical anomaly for Hall offensively.  But I'm certainly no expert.  If Melvin believes that Hall's offensive numbers will approach 2006 levels again if he's playing a defensive position he's comfortable with, then the interest in Cameron becomes more understandable, since it would result in offensive upgrade from Hall as well as the defensive upgrades at Center and 3rd.

If they sign Cameron, I sure as hell hope that thinking is correct.  Trading Hall now, after he struggled offensively last season, doesn't make a lot of sense to me, particularly since he can play so many positions if injuries crop up.  Besides, once he turns 30 he'll qualify as one of those crusty veteran types Ned loves so damn much.

If Cameron does sign, my guess is we'll get 25 games of Gwynn/Gross in C and Hall will play 3rd all year (barring injury).  He belongs in the IF anyway.      

The question is does the defensive improvement in C justify all the other positional switches?  

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 10, 2008 10:01 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I mostly agree
I hadn't thought about that too much, or knew that Cameron was above-average defensively.  Is Hall an upgrade over Braun at 3b defense, though?  Although he can play 3B/SS/2B/Cf, he's mostly played shortstop in the bigs.  In 2005, when he played his career high 59 games at third, he still played more games at shortstop (66), and 65 more innings.  His .953 fielding percentage doesn't seem that good, though I guess it is an improvement over Braun's .895.

It would be tragically funny if we do all this to move Hall to third base, and he's worse than Ryan.  

I think it's possible that too much was made about the switch to center and Hall's offensive output, but it sure seems like there was something else other than merely regression to the mean.  Hall's stats are here.    To me, regression to the mean is usually a drop to 80% of production(ish) from the previous season's gangbusters performance.  Even if 2006 was an aberration (OPS .899), you'd expect a drop to something like his 2005 season (OPS .837).  I don't think you can attribute a .160 drop in OPS to merely regression to the mean. (I mean, if we inched closer to the actual definition of regression to the mean, last season OPS was almost 50 points below his career average, which includes his awe-uninspiring 2002-2004 seasons.)  

He's only had 2 good seasons, so I think you could argue that 2005 and 2006 were aberrations, though I hope that's not the case.  If that's what Moustache thinks, then I guess now would be the time to trade him.  Still, like Braun's defense at third, I'd like to think he deserves another year to turn things around.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Jan 10, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

another post
strangely enough, TH posted another ...ummm... post a couple of hours after his original.  Apparently the Mustache didn't return his calls last night meaning something may be in the works.

Incidentally, Melvin didn't return my calls last night either, but that usually just means he's either watching hockey or there's a John Candy marathon on BBC Canada.

by newguy on Jan 10, 2008 12:42 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

nice
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Jan 10, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In my experience
almost always the latter.
2008: The Year of #8

by stevie ray Braun on Jan 10, 2008 6:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We could always just...
put YoGa in left field.  He has a career minor league OPS of .842, and .743 in the majors, not to mention his arm is surely passable out there :)

by marty22 on Jan 10, 2008 6:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

One positive of signing Cameron
Let's just stick Gwynn out there for 25 games and finally get a decent look at what he can actually do...then again that could backfire and result in a significant decrease in his trade value. That would really hurt his prime spot on this team as DTB... (Designated Trade Bait)

by MadJimiBrewha on Jan 11, 2008 9:21 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

yeah, what you said.
i just posted the same thing in the billy hall thread. but i went a step further and suggested we put TGjr out there and not sign cameron.

with fielder, weeks, and braun anywhere on the diamond, i think putting a defensive specialist, like TGjr, out there everyday to help offset the defensive misgivings is appropriate.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jan 11, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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