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Another trade idea.

I read a few days ago that the Twins might be 'targeting' JJ Hardy.  I'm not sure if we could somehow get Kevin Slowey off of them, but if we could, would you do it.  I know I would.

Slowey, coming off a solid age 24 season, could reach Super 2 status in 2009 and be arbitration eligible after the season, but if he doesn't, he'll be pre-arb until after 2010.

Slowey doesn't walk anyone.  His K% are decent (18.8% last season in the majors), but not great, though they would stand to improve in the NL. 

Hardy's coming off seasons with 26 and 24 HRs, plays above average D at a premium position, had his highest walk rate since his rookie year, and will be entering his peak seasons, which still figure to be pretty cheap (he made $2.65m in 2008).

Why would the Twins do this?  Because they think they can win now, and that have the pitching to do so. 

What do you all think?

0 recs  |  Comment 51 comments

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Service time

Slowey is at 1 year and 63 days of service time right now, so he isn’t a risk to reach Super 2 status next year.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Nov 10, 2008 4:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Love the WHIP. Can we explore Hart + prospect for him first though?

Gallardo, Slowey, Parra…I’d be happy with that. It takes away my wet dream of putting Weeks in Center once Cameron is gone but I can live with that.

by HRF on Nov 10, 2008 4:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

And, yes, I realize trading Hart + prospect is equivalent to ‘bag of baseballs + prospect’.

…what about Hart for Franklin Guitierrez?

by HRF on Nov 10, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s amazing how Corey Hart has gone from a franchise caliber player to a bag of balls in three months.

Seems every player that becomes one of my favorites turns to absolute crap in short order.

http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com

by No Huddle Offense on Nov 11, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Seems every player that becomes one of my favorites turns to absolute crap in short order.

Can you start rooting for the Cubs please??

;)

by Saberilliterate on Nov 11, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Twins don't need more OFers

At Battleyourtailoff.com we came to the consensus that it would take Slowey to get Hardy and we were split on whether that would be a great idea.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Nov 10, 2008 11:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't

I’d guess they would jump on it.

Do you think that Hardy plays average D?

by ol Pete on Nov 10, 2008 4:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Hardy plays above average D.

Quite above average, actually. I recall something in a Frosty Mug that Hardy was easily in the Top 3, sometimes ranked number 1.

by Rendezvous on Nov 10, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know for a fact

that KLSnow makes half of the stuff up in the Mug. (Ssssh.)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 11, 2008 4:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The hard part is producing fake web pages to back it up.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Nov 11, 2008 4:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nope

hardy for slowey = absolutely not

by BrewerBlue87 on Nov 11, 2008 12:52 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

i would have to see denard span or a reliever thrown in there as well as slowey .. ahh, now that i think of it, i dont like slowey, just give me Span and a reliever and well ship you hardy and another player

by BrewerBlue87 on Nov 11, 2008 1:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wait.

why wouldn’t you want Slowey to start, especially if they are going to include Span and another player?

if that were the case, I’d love it, and jump at the opp. Span is an ‘interesting’ player, but he’s got about a half season of interestingness so far. i wouldn’t look at him as a centerpiece for this deal.

BrewerBlue87, why don’t you like Slowey? i’m not saying he’s an ace, but what’s not to like?

by baumann on Nov 11, 2008 2:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hardy's D.

please note that i did say ‘above average D’ in the original post. i think Hardy has lots of value, all over the board. i think 5 cheap years of Slowey is a great place to start, if nothing else.

by baumann on Nov 11, 2008 2:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I was just curious about the source of your perception of his D being average.

Slowey might get it done, I don’t know.

Right now Escobar is mostly riding the bench because of his lack of hitting in the Venezuelan league. He has lost time to Tomas Perez, a former Phillie backup infielder.

by ol Pete on Nov 11, 2008 7:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He never said Hardy played average D. From the original post:

Hardy’s coming off seasons with 26 and 24 HRs, plays above average D at a premium position

With that said, I’d be surprised if Hardy is traded this year. I have doubts his bat is ready enough that the Brewers should trade one of the better shortstops in the league to make room for him.

by Supertramp on Nov 11, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

To clarify since I wasn't clear...

I have doubts Escobar’s bat is ready…I’m fine with Hardy’s.

by Supertramp on Nov 11, 2008 12:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Escobar=Royce Clayton

I would hope we got more than Slowey.

by Braunstalker on Nov 11, 2008 11:06 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

"more than Slowey"

Apparently five years of control over 24-year-old starting pitchers with 5.1 K/BB is something marginal — a throw in. I’m not trying to hate on Hardy here — I love the guy.

by baumann on Nov 11, 2008 1:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry,

I am in no way saying I dislike Slowey. I think it would rule if we could get him. I do, however, believe JJ is worth a good bit more. If we ran out of options for acquiring another quality starter, I would consider this a better idea.

JJ puts people (girls) in the seats. I think we have to give him a bump above his very nice stats for that, as having him on the team gives the Brewers more revenue. Also, I enjoy watching the game with females who actually give a darn what is happening on the field.

by Braunstalker on Nov 11, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

JJ puts people (girls) in the seats. I think we have to give him a bump above his very nice stats for that, as having him on the team gives the Brewers more revenue.

Does he? I would think a team winning 85+ games would put more people in the seats than JJ Hardy’s looks alone ever could. I don’t mean to suggest the team has to get rid of Hardy to win that many games, far from it. I just think that even if everyone on the team looked like the irradiated offspring of Joe Torre and Julian Tavarez, as long as they won a lot of games plenty of people would stay in the seats.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Nov 11, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I am uncertain

my girlfriend would be as tolerant of my addiction if that were the case. I would be cool with a team of Don Mossis if they won 90 games a year myself.

Too dumb to know how to link
http://deadspin.com/sports/baseball/the-ugliest-baseball-player-of-all-time-149269.php

by Braunstalker on Nov 11, 2008 7:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not like I'm checking out dudes, but...

I don’t really get the Hardy attraction.

http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com

by No Huddle Offense on Nov 12, 2008 6:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes Really

He also sells a hell of a lot of #7 jerseys

by Saberilliterate on Nov 11, 2008 1:59 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

This was in response to thejay

by Saberilliterate on Nov 11, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Let’s trade Cameron, move Hardy to second, put Weeks in center, and wait for this all to blow over.

by HRF on Nov 11, 2008 2:42 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

1+

This is actually a far better idea than trading away our best defensive player in the prime of his career. Rickie’s got a role model in Braun for the position switch (and also look at what one of his comps B.J. Upton did with it). The Yanks are interested in Cameron to the tune of (reportedly) Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy. If we could replace Melky in the deal with a live-armed prospect for the bullpen (of which the Yanks have plenty in their system), I think this makes MUCH more sense than sending JJ to the twinkies.

by balldeagle on Nov 11, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Center is such a tough defensive position – why do so many people feel that Weeks can just slide right in?

Look what happened to Hall when he was put out to pasture in CF… we ruined his career. If anything, lets trade Hall to the Twins. Halls best position is SS and he had his best seasons as a SS – both defensively and offensively. DM is a salesman… lets see if he can sell Hall to the Twins to fill their SS need.

Braun was the exception to the rule and not the rule….

by Saberilliterate on Nov 11, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

“If Center is such a tough defensive position – why do so many people feel that Weeks can just slide right in?”

Joe Sheehan: Because his offense isn’t developing, and there’s a notion—one I can get behind—that he’s stagnating as a player in part because of his inability to master second base. He seems to have the tools to play center field, the Brewers could use a CF*, and maybe the move would get his bat started again. The parallels to B.J. Upton are pretty clear.

*The Brewers exercised Mike Cameron’s option. I still think you could run Weeks out to center and look for a trade with Cameron or Hart.

by HRF on Nov 11, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If he can’t throw a ball from 2nd base to 1st base … how is he going to through the ball from the out field to a cut-off or home plate???

Bill Hall was supposed to have the tools to play CF too… that experiment bombed… badly. 2006 OPS+ (while playing mostly SS) 125 – 2007 OPS+ (in CF) 89. Hall had fan goodwill to support him in a transition. Weeks doesn’t have that fan goodwill.

Sorry – live or die at 2b – it is only my opinion and means less than the dog doo doo on the bottom of my shoe… but still my opinion

by Saberilliterate on Nov 11, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not necessarily

advocating moving Rickie Weeks to centerfield - in fact, I think I’d rather leave him at second. But there’s plenty of precedent for moving second basemen with dubious defensive skills to center. Chuck Knoblauch comes to mind.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 11, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For the record:

From now on, the following rule applies. You can either:

A) Advocate for players to constantly switch positions, or
B) Complain about players’ defensive abilities.

Rickie Weeks has never played an inning in center field in his life. He’s most likely more valuable as a second baseman than a center fielder. Moving him to the outfield could be a train wreck for a guy who already looks lost in other places.

Two years ago the Crew moved Bill Hall to center because he had a great bat and the team needed an outfielder more than an infielder. How’d that work out?

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Nov 11, 2008 4:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"From now on, the following rule applies. You can either:

A) Advocate for players to constantly switch positions, or
B) Complain about players’ defensive abilities."
I choose death.

Rickie Weeks has never played an inning in center field in his life. He’s most likely more valuable as a second baseman than a center fielder. Moving him to the outfield could be a train wreck for a guy who already looks lost in other places.
A) Just because he hasn’t doesn’t mean he can’t. He has the tools.
B) I know this isn’t news—I’m not saying this in a sarcastic or condescending way, just saying—to you so forgive the redundancy of this point B, but without CC and Sheets the 09 rotation is not good to say the least. Ditto for the bullpen. If the year ends up with them out of the race—and they’re certainly behind the Cubs as of now—I’d rather see them cut costs with Cameron and take an admitted flier on Weeks in Center in a punting year then stubbornly keep him at second when winning just isn’t that likely to begin with.

Two years ago the Crew moved Bill Hall to center because he had a great bat and the team needed an outfielder more than an infielder. How’d that work out?
A) It worked out terribly.
B) SMALL SAMPLE SIZE ALERT
C) Weeks and Hall are not clones of each other
D) SMALL SAMPLE SIZE ALERT
E) If we’re going to make a comparison we should at least use Sheehan’s of Weeks to Upton as that has far more parallels than Weeks to Hall.

by HRF on Nov 11, 2008 6:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your concept

“without CC and Sheets the 09 rotation is not good to say the least. Ditto for the bullpen. If the year ends up with them out of the race—and they’re certainly behind the Cubs as of now—I’d rather see them cut costs with Cameron and take an admitted flier on Weeks in Center in a punting year then stubbornly keep him at second when winning just isn’t that likely to begin with.”

I’ve had the feeling that we’re really just not going to be able to contend next year (unless we somehow get CC) without burying ourselves with contracts of mediocre overpaid stopgaps (please no jon garland/ollie perez). I’d like the brewers to use 2009 to groom gamel/escobar/salome/cain/gillespie, save money on FA’s, and let the farm system bubble over in 2010. Trade Cam for kennedy. I’d also like to make sure the prospects get called up Braun-style, to control them for another year.

While next year could be ugly (i hope i’m wrong) I think the Crew is in great shape for 2010 and beyond.

by marty22 on Nov 11, 2008 7:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

might as well trade

Hardy and Fielder and perhaps Hart

by ol Pete on Nov 11, 2008 7:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Upton started playing CF when he was 22. Weeks is 26 (Hall was 27 btw). I don’t see what parallels Weeks has with Upton other than that they are both fast.

by Supertramp on Nov 11, 2008 8:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. I mean, other than age, it’s not like they both were/are athletic second baseman with the same tools or anything with a scary similar plate approach and both being great at drawing walks but for some reason the average and power numbers stagnating.

Oh, wait.

by HRF on Nov 11, 2008 10:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Age is a big issue. Most 2B are athletic. Upton has better average, they bat different spots in the order..yada yada yada. You could find similarities and differences with a lot of players if you look hard enough.

I guess I don’t see much parallel in Upton learning a new position at age 22 (a defensive position that while improving, he is still average at 2 years later) with Weeks doing the same at age 26/27, especially a 26 year old player as inconsistent at the plate as Weeks has been.

If you’re going to “cut your costs” by getting rid of Cameron and his 1 year deal you might as well do as ol Pete sarcastically (I assume?) suggests and get rid of everyone that is due arbitration the next couple years and take your chances with a bunch of guys currently in the minors. I’d rather not see that happen.

by Supertramp on Nov 11, 2008 11:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Age is a big issue. Most 2B are athletic. Upton has better average, they bat different spots in the order..yada yada yada. You could find similarities and differences with a lot of players if you look hard enough.
If one was 36 and the other was 22 I’d agree on the age issue. If one is 26 and one is 22 I’d LOL.

Yes, Upton hits for higher average and has a higher power potential. He was coming off a .300/.386/.508 2007 season. But remind me again how Weeks having a career .245 batting average in any way, shape or form affects his potential for the handling of the centerfield job.

I find your dismissal solely because of age curious when the gap between ages isn’t large enough to affect performance and doubly curious when they have damn near the same raw tools.

I guess I don’t see much parallel in Upton learning a new position at age 22 (a defensive position that while improving, he is still average at 2 years later) with Weeks doing the same at age 26/27, especially a 26 year old player as inconsistent at the plate as Weeks has been.
You’re acting like Weeks is turning 32 or 33 this offseason and not when Braun’s contract expires. Weeks is about to hit his physical prime; he’s not getting any slower over the next three or four seasons; there’s plenty of time for learning, especially when 2009 is not looking like a viable year to “go for it”.

As for Upton’s “still average” defense, he was fourth in OOZ plays in the AL and tied for sixth in the majors. That’s “good”. He had a .921 RZR, good for 7th in the AL and 12th overall (of those qualified). Neither of those RZR standings are world beating but his range brings him out of the “average” those show.

Upton’s success in center does not ensure Weeks the same success. But the parallel’s exist, the similarities exist, to the point where it’s worth the risk in a psuedo-punting year.

If you’re going to "cut your costs" by getting rid of Cameron and his 1 year deal you might as well do as ol Pete sarcastically (I assume?) suggests and get rid of everyone that is due arbitration the next couple years and take your chances with a bunch of guys currently in the minors. I’d rather not see that happen.
Because I’m in favor of cutting costs by way of a 36 year old who is being paid 9 million a year at a defensive position that ages poorly I want to get rid of the rest of the young core just for the sake of saving costs? And because there could very well be a perfectly viable replacement on the roster? A replacement that when done lets the Brewers bring up Escobar to use WITH Hardy instead of having to trade Hardy?

The Brewers are close to being perennial contenders. Close. As of now, however, they’re not. The pitching isn’t there and isn’t being helped by the defense. And from the looks of it, they’re not going to be viable, season long contenders next year. Why waste nine million when that nine million can be better spent the season after when, Bernie willing, they will be ready to be that contender or be that one free agent/trade away when we’ll need that nine million? Say Weeks is an absolute disaster out there. What’s the difference between winning 82 games and missing the playoffs and winning 79 games and missing the playoffs? But then say Weeks is average out there. And in his physical prime. And still learning the position. That isn’t worth the risk? And, hell, maybe it’ll help his inconsistencies at the plate.

by HRF on Nov 12, 2008 12:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm

One argument in favor of moving Rickie to center is that he’s NOT a .300 hitter.

Moving Hall to center after his breakout season turns out to be a gamble that didn’t pay off (though it’s fair to wonder if he would have slumped if he stayed in the infield - given that his stats haven’t recovered since coming back, maybe he simply had a career year instead of being ruined by switching positions).

However, Rickie’s offense now, frankly, isn’t THAT good. He’s not hitting for a high average, and although he has some power, he’s not really a home run threat. He offensive skills should be immune to switching positions: his speed and his ability to take a walk, one presumes, won’t change. If he repeats Billy Hall’s offensive tumble and puts up a .220 BA…well, that’s not that far a tumble.

In other words, what’s the worst that could happen? :)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 12, 2008 6:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The worst that could happen is Weeks continues to be madly inconsistent at the plate and is as lost as Bill Hall was in CF. How long does that experiment work? 30 games max?

In addition to costing you games, you’ve wrecked any value Weeks has, gotten rid of a CF that costs you nothing long term and have to find a new 2B and new leadoff man.

Of course their is a chance he becomes an average defensive CF which leads to another chance that he improves at the plate, but is it worth the risk? You’ve got a reasoned argument that it is, I just disagree.

by Supertramp on Nov 12, 2008 8:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

Admittedly, I was thinking in terms of offense - I didn’t really consider the defensive mishaps that could occur in center. Going from Cameron to Rickie would be quite a hit in centerfield defense. On the other hand, the the prevailing (if unspoken) wisdom is that if you’re fast, you can play center, no matter what your other defensive liabilities might be.

Anyway, my usual Weeks-in-center caveat applies: while I won’t rule out the possibility that he could work out fine, I really don’t think moving him to center is a fantastic idea. And really, I don’t think his defense at second is so bad to warrant such a switch. I just don’t think the “Hall in centerfield ruined his swing” argument - which may or may not be valid - applies in Rickie’s case.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 12, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"Hall in centerfield ruined his swing" argument – which may or may not be valid – applies in Rickie’s case.

Indeed. The closest comparable is Upton, not Hall.

by HRF on Nov 12, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It depends on how bad you think he is at second

I think his range makes up for the occasional throwing error, making him below-average but not by a whole lot. I think the potential for him to improve at second is just as good as the potential for him to be good in center, without the risk of a total catastrophe if he can’t play CF at all.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Nov 12, 2008 9:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But...

I did enjoy the Shaun of the Dead reference.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Nov 11, 2008 4:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope you’re not the only one who did.

by HRF on Nov 11, 2008 6:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course not!

“Yeah, boyyyeee!”

"If loving CC is wrong I do not want to be right"
"If lovin’ Braun is wrong, I want to be a repeat offender"

by kirbir on Nov 11, 2008 8:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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