In talking to some people involved today, I get the feeling the Yankees are backing away from a...

In talking to some people involved today, I get the feeling the Yankees are backing away from a potential Melky Cabrera-for-Mike Cameron trade with the Milwaukee Brewers, at least for now. There’s a deal the teams could make, and while I’m not sure of the particulars, at this point the Yankees’ main question is baseball-related, not financial.

We know they do not value Cameron at $10 million, which is why they wanted the Brewers to include some money — or take on Kei Igawa — to make the deal happen. Now that a fair deal seems to be in place, the question is whether it makes baseball sense.

I’m not sure it does. If the Yankees add Cameron, he would bat in the bottom third of the order. Presumably, Nick Swisher will be there, too. Those two hitters are good for a combined 300 strikeouts a season.

Tyler Kepner

Not only are the Yankees oblivious to the concept of actual value, their writers apparently are too.

6 months ago Jordan M Comment 65 comments 1 recs |

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Sure

this trade doesn’t make sense for the Yankees… (rolls eyes).

How about picking up Jeff Salazar? The Diamondbacks didn’t want him but he does project to be better offensively (but not defensively) than TGJr. And he’s a lefty. He’s mostly played the corners in the majors but has much more experience at center in the minors.

Unless we’re happy with Gwynn, Nelson, some Hall, possibly Lamb, and maybe even Iribarren as backups.

by jeffro53081 on Dec 15, 2008 8:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If the Yankees add Cameron, he would bat in the bottom third of the order.

It’s not the Brewers fault you spend $36 kajillion on pretty good players like A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Damon, Matsui, and Nady. And are looking to add Texiera, too. Plenty of teams would love the value Cameron gives their team.

So seriously. screw you Yankees.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 15, 2008 8:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like how strikeouts are the only stat he uses to make the point.

Are you seriously arguing that Cabrera and Gardner > Cameron? If so, you should not be writing about baseball.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 15, 2008 9:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair, we had Cameron batting 6th most of the year.

Not that he SHOULD have been there, but the point stands.

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by jhmoore on Dec 16, 2008 1:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cashman is the icky guy on the bus… at least the homeless guy wants a delusional fair deal

by Braunstalker on Dec 16, 2008 1:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

This is the impression I get from the people on the Yankee's side of the deal

Ooh if they’ll take Igawa maybe. But Cameron is very overrated. His batting average stinks, his on base percentage stinks and he strikes out a ton. He’s good on defense, but not that much better than Gardner or Cabrera. So what’s the appeal, for him to be CC’s caddy?

If that is truly the case, it looks like the Midwest gravitational coefficient has altered my true perspective of the actual value of Cameron. I guess batting average and strike outs are the be all and end all of statistics…what? he hit 25 home runs in 25 less games… that has no meaning. “The guy is old and we are the Yankees, therefore the Crew should pay half of his salary, take on Igawa’s contract, give us Bill Hall for for free, and buy us a corndog. I suppose we will pay the rest of Cameron and Hall’s contract, but give us the corndog for cripes sake. We like playoff corndogs and apparently $200 million doesn’t buy you playoff corndogs.”

anyway…f the yankees

by MadJimiBrewha on Dec 16, 2008 2:51 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

rec'd

I untuck my shirt!

by Michael M on Dec 16, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it is time

for Doug to give the Yankees the “New York hello”.

September 15: Not a bad little Monday

by molitorfan on Dec 16, 2008 6:03 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Cameron is OK

Cameron’s overall offensive effort was nice, with a 110 OPS+, but he wasn’t so good that I’m offended by the Yankees’ gamesmanship. The truth is that his defense was down last year, with a few high-profile drops in the last week of the season and the brief playoff run (none charged as errors. If the mighty Mike Cameron has a ball hit his glove and pop out, it must be a park effect or something, not an error). So, from the Yankees point of view, they’re getting a defensive center fielder whose skills are declining; a hitter with some power, but who also strikes out once per four at-bats; and C.C.‘s buddy, which is probably the only reason they’re trying to work this deal.

The Yankees probably don’t care if this deal goes through, and so they’re trying to turn it into a positive for them. On the Brewers side, this looks like a pure salary dump, which is odd. They could have just NOT KEPT Cameron. So, Melvin is not a very good GM, which was pretty clear going into this, and every other, offseason.

I remember looking forward to seeing Sackmann’s posts on why Cameron is worth keeping, but they don’t seem to be required. Everyone has jumped on the Cameron bandwagon without them.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 6:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure it's that everyone's jumping on the Cameron bandwagon as much as...

… the not-Melky-Cabrera/Igawa bandwagon. Particularly since taking on Igawa would negate some if not all of the salary dump, which eliminates one of the rationales for the deal in the first place. I personally am not that opposed to dealing Cameron if the right offer comes along, but I don’t like this deal much.

I have an unreasonable dislike of Bill Hall.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 16, 2008 6:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure

The Igawa part negates the salary dump, and would be one of the worst Melvin deals for the Brewers. There’s a lot of “Cameron is hella valuable” tone floating around, though, and I don’t think I’m convinced.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 7:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't recall ever really reaching to stretch Cameron's value...

But I do think he’s worth more than a bad, declining center fielder.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Dec 16, 2008 7:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think there's $10 million worth of difference

Cameron’s the better player, overall, but over the last 3 years, their lines are pretty close.

Cameron
2006 .268 .355 .482
2007 .242 .328 .431
2008 .243 .331 .477

Cabrera
2006 .280 .360 .391
2007 .273 .327 .391
2008 .249 .301 .341

So, for $10 million you get some slugging (and the associated Ks) and his defensive reputation, which drifts further from reality as time goes by. I think dumping Cameron straight-up for Cabrera is actually a pretty good deal for the Brewers, and would even be fair if the Brewers kicked in a couple million.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 7:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So Cam is an average defender? And Cabrera is how good? And the reason Cabrera will hit that whopping .750 OPS rather than the .640 is?

by ol Pete on Dec 16, 2008 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera is not good in the outfield

And we all saw Cameron make stupid mistakes and bad plays last year. His defense is still good, but not so good that it overshadows his weaknesses at the plate.

I picked the last 3 years so we wouldn’t cherry-pick Cabrera’s numbers from last year. I see where the Yankees think they should get a little more for taking on Cam’s salary, based on their performance over the last 3 years, and the possibility that Melky can still rebound and have a productive career (maybe).

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 8:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say he's not good

But he’s no Cameron, he could potentially play average defense in center (but probably -5 runs is more likely), and he would be a plus defender in the corners.

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by jhmoore on Dec 16, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not your contradicting yourself

you say this above:
“On the Brewers side, this looks like a pure salary dump, which is odd. They could have just NOT KEPT Cameron. So, Melvin is not a very good GM, which was pretty clear going into this, and every other, offseason.”

And now just say:
“I think dumping Cameron straight-up for Cabrera is actually a pretty good deal for the Brewers, and would even be fair if the Brewers kicked in a couple million.”

Unless you’re saying that Melvin just happen to make this a good deal without trying to make it one, if that makes sense.

I untuck my shirt!

by Michael M on Dec 16, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Poor wording

I should have said that Melky-Mikey straight-up is a fair deal as far as the 2 players and their salaries are concerned. I don’t have a lot of optimism about CF, regardless of which one is out there, and I’m not offended by the $10 million.

However, if Melvin was looking to dump salary, he already has a Melky on the roster in the person of TG Jr. That’s why I think Melvin is a terrible GM. This deal only makes sense if he’s dumping Cameron’s salary, but it’s a salary he didn’t have to take on to begin with.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"I remember looking forward to seeing Sackmann’s posts on why Cameron is worth keeping"

jihad is the new official keeper of the flame.

Thank you, jihad :)

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Dec 16, 2008 9:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you don't think Mlevin is a very good general manager:

I’m just curious as to how you view the Sexson trade, in retrospect, as most people think that is one of his best deals.

Not that I’m disagreeing with you, I really am just interested in your opinion on that particular trade.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It was a good trade

In retrospect, I don’t think it’s the blockbuster that everyone thought it was for the couple years after, but Melvin dealt Sexson at the height of his value and got several ok players in return, including a couple nice seasons out of Capuano and Overbay.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think I'm one of the few people, looking back, who doesn't really like the trade that much.

I don’t really know exactly what else we could have gotten, but to me and looking at similar deals for big time players, like Sexson was at the time, I think we should have gotten at least one or two top-flight prospects. Capuano was a good pick up, Counsell was a back-up, Moeller and De La Rosa sucked, Spivey and Overbay were both stop gaps. I just think we should have been able to get something that would have been helping us more in the future. All I can see that was actually good out of that trade was Cappy and Dave Bush (via Overbay).

I’m probably pretty alone in that argument, though.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

De la Rosa was a top prospect, though

and Capuano was a good prospect.

What I like about it was that he got a bunch of solid, cheap players for an expiring contract. Of those solid, cheap guys, a few played well and got us decent returns in trades. We didn’t burn service time for good young players too early because of it, and if Cappy hadn’t gotten hurt, we’d have had 40% of our rotation from that trade.

It would have been nice to get a long-term contributor, sure. But that’s not always realistic, and he made a fine trade. I’m not with Jim Powell that it’s one of the most lopsided trades of all time, though.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 10:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Its only lopsided when you look at what Sexson gave the D-Backs.

Was George Of The Rose really a top prospect than? That I didn’t know. I wish we had gotten a bit more of a “sure thing” than. Though maybe he was and I’m just being silly.

I mean, yeah, the trade got us cheap serviceable guys for a time when we wouldn’t really be contending, but in my eyes did nothing to really get us more value a couple years down the road. Though I suppose, looking at top 100 prospect lists from 2003/4, the only Arizona prospects I’m seeing are Scott Hairston, Chad Tracy, Sergio Santos, Luis Terrero, Edgar Gonzalez, John Patterson (who had a very good year in 2005, anyway), Mike Gosling, and, of course, Lyle Overbay is there, too, though at that point he was already getting up there in age, in terms of prospect-dom.

So, really, in retrospect, their top prospects really really sucked for the most part. The only one I’d really want now is Chad Tracy. I’m assuming, correct me if I’m wrong, that he has been injured frequently the last couple years?

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 10:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yup, he's been hurt a lot

Sure, if you can heist Hanley Ramirez or something for a rental guy, that’s the kind of trade you want to make, but it’s not realistic.

JDLR was considered a pretty good prospect. The early 2005 era was the first time I really followed the Brewers much, and I remember Bob and Jim talking about how good this guy was going to be with his mid 90s fastball.

Look at it this way— think the D-Backs would take it back? I think they would have loved to have Overbay for Bush+Gross, Spivey for Ohka, JDLR for T-Graf, and of course a temporary ace-caliber pitcher in Cappy. Not a heist by any stretch of the imagination, but a quality deal and exactly what they needed in that situation— a bunch of cheap, solid guys, some with potential.

This is far more interesting than writing a 6-page research paper for English, btw. That’s what I’m supposed to be doing right now.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 10:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What topic?

For your English paper

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Dec 16, 2008 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Haha, I have to write a six page research paper, too!

Composition 2 for college credit. I was originally going to do mine on steroids in baseball/BALCO, but than decided that might be too opinionated and choose the 2008 world series instead. Every paper so far has been about baseball, pretty much. Pity nobody in this town can have a good conversation about baseball, most people I talk to still enjoy batting average as a great stat. But hey, that’s why I’m on this site almost all day!

Anyway, back to the trade. I suppose it might be somewhat unrealistic to get a superstar player for a rental, but there are plenty that do get that kind of value. Obviously not a good example, but still, look at the CC trade last year. They got Brantley and Laporta off of us for a half year of CC. Of course, CC is one of the best pitchers in the world and Sexson was just a good hitting 1B. I’m sure there are plenty of other deals like that, too. My point is just that, well it WAS a good deal, it would have been better at that point, when we weren’t really competing, to go for younger minor leaguers rather than stopgap players. You think that was exactly what was needed than, but I think what was needed was minor leaguers, especially more pitching if we could have gotten it. I mean, just look at how much better off we’d be right now if we had gotten a pitcher who, in a couple years could could have been a #3 type pitcher. Although, to go against myself, I guess you could say Bush is that guy. Or Capuano (without the injury). Or George of the Rose if he had not been so maddeningly inconsistent.

But, yeah, I do think it was a good trade, just not the best possible option. Of course, I’m also not saying we should have been going after three superstar type players, like Hanley Ramirez, either.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 11:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hypothetical

Say LaPorta comes up and hits .260/.330/.450 with 18 home runs about in each of the next two years in the majors. He frustrates Indians fans with inconsistent throws in from the outfield. In general, he’s erratic and inconsistent. There are flashes of brilliance, but there are flashes of incopmetence. He has one key moment, playing a key supporting role in a Mother’s Day game when a teammate walks it off v. Chad Bradford with a pink bat. Some support him and think they should keep him around. Others think he should be dumped. In the end, he has no options left, and he’s traded to the Royals for a resurgent Tony Graffaninio.

That was a really long analogy, but I think the point is made in there?

Every paper so far has been about baseball, pretty much. Pity nobody in this town can have a good conversation about baseball, most people I talk to still enjoy batting average as a great stat. But hey, that’s why I’m on this site almost all day!

Responding also to RJ above— I have English 101 (UW-Oshkosh credit), and they give me really specific windows of possible topics, so it’s usually a stretch to bring baseball into the picture. This particular one is actually a paper about a research paper. The “exploratory” is 5 to 6 pages describing in first person narrative how you will outline your 10-12 page research paper. The topic was limited to a fairly broad “How will society change”, and I actually have a Rambling Al favorite of the newspaper industry.

And about trying to talk about baseball with people— it’s hard, I usually give up quickly. Recently, it’s been about defense— people just don’t get that A) errors suck as an evaluation method B) defense is a huge part of player value and you can’t just say “drive in 2, let in 1” anymore.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 11:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome, mine is an oshkosh credit, also.

I think (not sure) there are two parts or kinds or something that english 101 entails, because I’m almost positive mine’s the same.

We are just told the kind of paper we are writing, though, and have pretty much complete liberty to choose the topic. I just did a cause/effect paper on what would happen if CC signed with the Brewers. The day I turned it in he signed with the Yankees. We are also on the computers pretty much all day every day “working” on our paper for that week. (I am usually on here reading the Mug or playing games with a buddy.

My teacher is honestly insane with her grading though. On each paper it’s 50 points conventions and 50 points for ideas. I always get something like a 45 on ideas, but my conventions screw me over. Even though I am a pretty good writer. Me and my classmates are all straight A students (fine, mostly B’s for me this year), but literally brag when we get a B- on a paper.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 11:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mine's not quite that strict

I have like a 3.98 gpa overall, but that class is difficult— I’ll probably get a B. I got a 71 on my first paper— rude awakening. It was a memoir. I tried to be funny in it. My teacher does not appreciate humor so much. We get funny/awkward looks when we make jokes.

Kimberly is dang good at blocking games, but we’re smarter than the system. They don’t block en espanol.

Somewhat related story: I had a computer class freshman year where my teacher was a crazy old guy, and my computer was opposite his desk, and we had a ton of worktime. We had to script HTML and make a website. This is my finished product and it is awesome. I like how I used avg, hr, rbi mostly back then. Researching players, I found Brewerfan.net one day. Another day, in 2007 after an epic yosting, I googled “Death to Ned Yost” at school and the first entry is FNY, which has a link to BCB in the sidebar— resulting in my first exposure to this fine site.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 11:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That site is impressive.

I was in a web processing class and had to do something similar, though I take no shame in saying mine didn’t compare. I don’t remember…pretty much anything from that class, to be honest.

Now you’ve got me wondering how I found the holy grail of brewers talk that is brewcrewball.com. I have no idea….

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 17, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BCB does your homework!

I think you should let your fellow BCBers do your homework. Each BCB volunteer could contribute a paragraph. That could be pretty interesting. :)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Dec 16, 2008 11:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

With all my topics baseball related

I’d be willing to give it a shot. I think the research paper might be the last one, though.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 11:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It was the best of research papers, it was the worst of research papers. Call me Noah J.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Dec 17, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Haha!

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 17, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I did a research paper on steroids my senior year of high school

It was at the height of Barry Bonds/Balco stuff.

It’s kind of funny that as an engineer, I missed writing. Any opportunity I had to write a paper or report, I would take it.

What’s the lesson to be learned? If you don’t like writing, be an engineer… and blogs might not be the right place to hang around..

by tcyoung on Dec 17, 2008 1:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Pods+ Viscaino for Carlos was pretty nice too

As well as Overbay for Gross, DBush, and ZachJack (and Koskie in a separate deal).

I just give him credit for not being an idiot. I think there is the smart/moneyball teir of GMs, then the Doug-type smart small market GMs, then the idiots like Sabean and Bowden.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 9:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't dislike Doug. I don't really like him either. I'm neutral.

The Podsednik-Lee trade was absolutely spectacular. That I give him Kudos for. The Overbay trade was pretty good as well.

Lee for Cordero, Mench and Nix was OK. Cordero was good, anyway. However, I’m not sure if maybe I would have rather had the picks we would have gotten for Lee, especially with Jack Z having still been here.

It just seems like, other than the Pods-Lee trade, Melvin has never really gotten anybody with upper-class potential or a star player, which is my biggest beef with the Sexson trade.

Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9

by NoahJ on Dec 16, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Their lines are pretty close?

I get what you are saying Marty, so I’m not trying to be confrontational, but saying these guys are pretty close is a reach. You’re talking about around 100 OPS per year separating the two on average. 100 OPS points is a lot.

At first base, @100 OPS is the difference between Prince Fielder and Paul Konerko last year.

In the outfield, @100 OPS points is the difference between Matt Holliday and Gabe Kapler.

Again, I get what you’re saying; some have overvalued a declining Cameron. He still has a ton ov value at 10MIL per year though. We shouldn’t just be giving him away. The Yankees’ fiscal constraints rank pretty far down my importance totem pole.

It is dangerous for an athlete to believe his own publicity, good or bad - Bob Uecker, 1982.

by Adam P on Dec 16, 2008 8:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I guess that's the question

The OPS point differential is almost entirely due to Cameron’s SLG, since their OBA is pretty close (and, of course, Melky had an atrocious year last year, leading to a bigger spread in 2008). So, Cameron is +.091 in 2006, +.040 in 2007 and +.130 in 2008. I haven’t looked at any projections, but I figure they project out to probably another spread of .090 in SLG. I don’t really think that’s worth $10 million by itself. On the other hand, I don’t think the Brewers need to be actively looking to dump that $10 million in salary.

As I’ve said, I think Cam is the better player. I just don’t think he’s so much better that the Yankees are scorned for looking for a better deal.

And Igawa sucks. Any trade that includes him and his $12 million over the next 3 years is unspeakable.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

....but it's not 10 million by itself Marty.

Correct me if I’m wrong please, but Cabrera is due a raise. He’s going to get a salary of around 2-3 million. So the difference between the two is really 7 million. It’s actually more like 6.25 if you consider it would cost the brewers 750K to just be done with Cameron with a buyout. It’s actually like 3 million dollars if the Brewers end up kicking in @3 Million of his salary. The cost savings or salary dump or whatever you want to call it is minimal at best, and so it becomes in my mind a minimal cost difference versus a noticeable performance difference. Advantage Yankees.

Give us more please…….

It is dangerous for an athlete to believe his own publicity, good or bad - Bob Uecker, 1982.

by Adam P on Dec 16, 2008 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think all those numbers are right

It would have been $750k to not pick up Cameron’s option, but since they already have, the Brewers are on the hook for the whole $10 million, I think. I would have to defer to people that pay more attention to those details.

Given Cabrera’s performance over the last couple years, would he get more than $2 million in arbitration? Seems iffy. Still, I see your point, if that’s the case. It’s still a spread of 7-8 million, without any cash or other players thrown in, and I’m not convinced that the 70-100 SLG points are worth it, especially since SLG can vary that much, year-to-year.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Keeping the flame

I’m not convinced that the 70-100 SLG points are worth it

If everything else is equal, I’d agree with you. But I think the difference in opinions here is a result of the defense. I— and many others here— think Cameron is still a top-notch center fielder. I know you’ve mentioned that ball he missed in the playoffs, and I assume the other one you’re talking about was the one in Houston, but I don’t think Cabrera or many other CFs for that matter even touch those balls. I think we’re talking more like .100 pts SLG difference, maybe a similar OBP but more consistency there from Cameron, and about 10 runs or 1 win defensively. If Cabrera was really good at defense, I’d be fine with this, but I’m skeptical.

And there is no doubt Cameron is worth $10 million on a 1 year deal. Even with an estimate of 10 runs above average in center, that’s about a win, and then he only has to be +10 runs above replacement to justify that commitment on a 1-year deal. I’ll take my chances with that, because 10 runs over replacement about league average for a CF.

So really, a even a replacement level hitting CF worth +25 runs in the field (Franklin Gutierrez?) is worth $10 mil on a 1-year deal. You can argue all you want that Cabrera is a decent pickup— and to an extent, I agree— but the Brewers shouldn’t have to pick up any salary or take a bad contract. Cam at $10 mil is in no way overpaid, unless you really think his defense or hitting is going to fall of a cliff- and I see nothing suggesting it will.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It is about defense

I think Cam’s defensive reputation has inflated his value in many minds. I tend to see him more and more as Griffey on the downside of his career – he made enough great plays for his reputation to be reinforced, but his overall play is reverting to average. I expect it will be worse this year, and as a streaky offensive players, those numbers could come in anywhere.

Overall, I like this thread now. It’s a much more productive discussion than “Cashman has lost his mind!” and “Melvin should tell the Yankees to take a leap!”

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Even if Cameron is exactly average as a center fielder next year

He’d be around 10-15 runs better defensively than Cabrera.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Dec 16, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cameron’s .935 RZR was towards the top of the NL, and his 13.3 UZR/150 was second in all of baseball last year among CFs.

I tend to think that the complaints that his defense is slipping are the result of a couple plays he didn’t make (as mentioned above) and the lack of a ton of highlight catches (see McLouth, Nate).

by Supertramp on Dec 16, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Defensive stats

Still coming along.

Melky’s RZR in center last year was .938, so that one’s not terribly useful for comparision. UZR is nice, and Melky was at 0.0 last year, so I don’t know if his reputation as a butcher is deserved, although he’s clearly not a good defender.

Part of my issue with Cam’s stats is that those memorable blunders weren’t charged as errors, and so his numbers are inflated.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Some NY fans talk about Melky being a pretty good defender. Who knows?

I’m not sure what defensive metrics include errors.

by ol Pete on Dec 16, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

UZR does

it also includes range. That’s why it’s a nice compromise.

And Marty, I absolutely see where you’re coming from. Your opinion is that Cam’s defense is not so great and getting worse, where I still think he’s well above average and won’t decline too much. Just a difference in opinion.

I don’t object to trading Cam at all, I think it’s a fine idea. But I think we can get a better package than this.

And neck size to baby eating ratio.

by Jordan M on Dec 16, 2008 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

NY Daily News

Although the two sides didn’t talk Monday, a Yankees official said the trade should still get done at some point. “There’s no hurry,” the official said. “There are a lot of issues.”

by ol Pete on Dec 16, 2008 9:11 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think Cameron has more value to the Brewers because of who is playing next to him. Braun is still learning a new position and Hart could still use a little work. Having that extra defense in center probably helps Braun’s transition to a new position.

That being said, I’m not necessarily pro-Cameron. I think he was a big part of the Brewers success last year, but I would dump him if the right offer came along. Cabrera/Igawa is not the right deal, especially is we’re trading him to dump his salary.

by BrewHaHeather on Dec 16, 2008 10:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The second half of that comment

Is exactly how I feel as well.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Dec 16, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Irony

All of a sudden, after decades of driving up the price, the Yankees want a player but don’t want to pay him what he’s worth.

The rest of baseball has been dealing with this problem for decades, but the Yankees are behaving like they’ve never seen it before.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Dec 16, 2008 10:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

more irony

They shovel money for pitching but don’t seem all that concerned about catching the ball behind those pitchers. Who are the corner outfielders on their roster: Damon, Matsui, maybe Swisher – I’m not including somebody (but is that person a good defender)? Isn’t the Yankee outfield rather large?

I look forward to the intense coverage of the Yankees this year as ground balls go up the middle and CC watches the outfielders running around. I’m sure he’ll be thrilled when Damon makes a throw to the plate.

by ol Pete on Dec 16, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Can Damon make a throw to the plate without bouncing it half dozen times??

by Saberilliterate on Dec 17, 2008 8:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you kidding?

Even with the bounces, I don’t think he could throw past the mound.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 17, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like how nobody there responded to my comment.

Me and my damn numbers…

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by jhmoore on Dec 16, 2008 1:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Which comment was that?

At last count, there’s 35 comments here and hundreds on previous threads about the same topic.

It’s possible we’re talking this one to death.

I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.

by KLSnow on Dec 16, 2008 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Depressing

It’s possible we’re talking this one to death.

Yeah, all this talk about Cameron/Cabrera is just highlighting the fact that no significant changes are being made to the Brewers, except for losses. Lost Sabathia, Sheets, Torres. Still have Suppan. Not looking like a good 2009.

by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 16, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

by tcyoung on Dec 16, 2008 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I meant at NYTimes, it's this one:

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/hot-stove-rumblings-on-cameron-pettitte-and-manny/#comment-68217

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by jhmoore on Dec 16, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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NL Central Standings

	W	L	PCT	GB	STRK
St. Louis Viva El Birdos	45	39	.535	0	Won 1
Milwaukee Brew Crew Ball	43	38	.530	0.5	Lost 1
Cincinnati Red Reporter	40	40	.500	3	Lost 1
Chicago Bleed Cubbie Blue	39	39	.500	3	Won 1
Houston The Crawfish Boxes	39	41	.487	4	Won 1
Pittsburgh Bucs Dugout	37	45	.451	7	Lost 2