Hall for Igawa?
by roguejim on Dec 17, 2008 11:49 AM CST
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PrintThis isn't Rumorville, so much as it is a Conjecture Cul-de-sac. I just wanted to gauge the anti-Bill E. Hall sentiment:
Would you trade Hall (in whom the Yankees have expressed interest) for Igawa straight up? We know Igawa has very nice AAA numbers, and is owed $12 million over the next 3 years. Bill E. Hall, OTOH, is owed $15.2 million over the next two years, with a $500,000 buyout in 2011 (or club option of $9.25 million).
You'd save close to $4 million and get much-needed pitcher depth. (Even if Igawa stinks, he's stinking for only $4 million, version Suppan's $12.5 million.)
Of course, that leaves Lamb as your starting 3rd baseman full time, and I kind of like the idea of a Bill E. Ha-aaa-ll platoon, with Hall against lefties (career OPS vs. LHP: .847) and Lamb against righties (career OPS vs. RHP: .757, but 40 pts. higher than against LHP). Besides, they have the whole Ebony and Ivory thing going.
You know, if only "Lamb" were "Goat," then the platoon could be Bill E. Goat.
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I threw up in my mouth a little
If Hall went to the Yankees, I would have to watch Yankees games, and root for them to win. I don’t think I could handle that.
by Marty McSuperFly on Dec 17, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
I'll also vote no.
I think the Brewers are really missing Hall’s true value. While he’s likely never going to be the dominant hitter they expected two seasons ago, he’s capable of playing second, short, third and the outfield…in fact, in his two best offensive seasons (2005 and 2006), he played three and four positions, respectively.
If Hall can hit reasonably (let’s say .260/.320/.450, only slightly above his career numbers for AVG and OBP), he could be very valuable as a 4 game a week or so starter, giving everyone a day off.
I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.
If the years were the same I would do that trade.
but as it stands, Hall will be gone a year sooner than Igawa and we will have the contract off the books sooner.
If the years were the same, though, I would take Igawa, due to the immediate necessity for pitching in addition to any hopes that getting out of NY would help him put up numbers closer to what he does in AAA.
Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9
Is Igawa going to be a productive MLBer?
As much as Billy has frustrated with his back foot stance and down year, he has a good chance at a significantly better year offensively and he is a good glove at 2b, 3b and SS. In a pinch he could hold his own in the OF for a couple games. I think his error totals are affected by that stretch where he learned he was going to be platooned and his zone ratings are affected by all the factors that affect the Brewers – a lot of shifts, a 1b who doesn’t dig many balls and is height limited as well as a couple others.
I can see where his offense is up for speculation and debate, but does anyone not see him as a good glove man?
Igawa is an unknown. Maybe the Brewers have scouting information that would say give him a shot.
More on Igawa
is here, thanks to SB Nation tags.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
good stuff there
I may write more about this at some point, but I think there hasn’t been enough talk about the potential upside of Igawa.
The NL Central would be way friendlier to him than the AL East, and he does have more experience with US baseball now. Of course, these are all if’s, and maybe he really will top out as a decent AAA pitcher. But there is a non-negligible chance that he could give an NL team 150-200 innings of, say, 4.75 ERA ball. Brewers fans know how much that can cost on the open market.
Again, these are all if’s, but that outcome has to be taken into consideration rather than writing off Igawa as someone who we’d pay millions just to be the next Chris Narveson.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Dec 17, 2008 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
My problem with this whole deal is that we were trading a sure thing for potential…Cabrera COULD bounce back from a rough 2007 followed by an awful 2008. Igawa MIGHT not be as bad as his 6+ ERA in pinstripes.
We more or less know what to expect from Cameron, and what I’m expecting is an above-average centerfielder. I’d rather not trade that for two rolls of the dice, one of which is a really expensive roll…
I don't specifically articulate my motives, because that wouldn't travel as well as a boo does.
right...
but cameron being a known quantity has its downside. Not only is he unlikely to outperform projections much in 2009, we know that for $10MM, we’re getting exactly nothing from him in 2010 and 2011. On the other hand, if all Igawa does is match his MLE for ‘07 and ’08 minor league performance, we’d get Suppan-or-better performance (I know, it’s a low bar, but still) from an innings eater for three years.
Given what we have for 2009, and maybe even for 2010, we probably need to be building a high-risk, high-reward team. With Cameron, we probably don’t win in ‘09. Without Cameron, we probably don’t win, and we may be worse (say, 80 wins instead of 83), but if stuff breaks right with Igawa and Melky, we could be better, and have money to burn.
But, without knowing what else Doug plans to do, or how much money he’s going to spend doing it, we can’t even try to evaluate the risk/reward relationship in any concrete manner.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Dec 17, 2008 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
Hall isn’t as abysmal as everyone thinks—he’s adequate—but I’d be wary of trading him for anything until Mat Gamel is ready. (I wonder what he can do without having an injury he doesn’t disclose for months.)
On the other hand, if you traded Suppan for Igawa straight up I would be so behind that. ;) I don’t think Igawa is as awful as his MLB numbers are showing. He’s perfectly adequate when he plays for Scranton, after all. I hope it is just an NY-related problem.
Suppan is not the benchmark for bad contracts.
We cannot say that a bad contract isn’t so bad because it’s smaller than Suppan’s.
You are right kind of – Carl Pavano could the bench mark for MLB
But
What contract would you call the worst in Brewer’s history? I can think of contracts that we should have signed and didn’t. But I can’t think of any contracts that are clear cut ‘worse’ than Suppans. Gagne’s comes close – but DM only signed him to one year instead of four.
by Saberilliterate on Dec 17, 2008 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
Hammonds
3 years/$21 million at a time when Brewer payrolls were below $50 million. Total of 187 games played.
Hammonds.
$22MM, three years.
If you assume inflation of 5, that’s an AAV of about $10MM in 2007 (comparable to Suppan’s signing) terms. If you assume baseball salary inflation of 10 (more like how it has been lately), it’s an AAV of $13MM in 2007.
Blech.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Dec 17, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Was Hammonds
a bad contract when it signed or just 20/20 hindsight?
Asking – because I really don’t know/remember. I was hardening my liver a lot at the time.
Also – what was the payroll at the time? How much of a % did he take up?
by Saberilliterate on Dec 17, 2008 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
Had his best year in Colorado as a 29 year old the year before he signed with the Brewers, no doubt wooed by his .335 batting average. Hadn’t played a full season in his career due to injuries.
Can’t find what the Brewers payroll was, but I believe it ranged from the low $30s to upper $40s during his time here and the teams weren’t nearly competitive enough to think that investing that much .
Here is the JS article when he signed, reads like a trainwreck.
Brewers payrolls
Opening Day 2000: $36.5 million.
Opening Day 2001: $43.1 million.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
Here is the JS article when he signed, reads like a trainwreck.
Man – we were standing right at the RR crossing waiting for the train to smack us right along side the head. Reading the article reminded me of why Dean Taylor was fired.
by Saberilliterate on Dec 18, 2008 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
I believe the term
HELL 2 DA NAWWWWWW!!! is the appropriate answer to your question.
I just sit back and root for the taser
I have to say, I'm shocked
at all the Bill Hall love. :)
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
it's not that we love Hall so much...
…it’s that we’d be really embarrassed if we suddenly started losing to the Reds next year.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Dec 17, 2008 6:28 PM CST up reply actions
Everyone is actually talking about the ex-Pirate
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
Wrong adjective pal.
I wouldn’t give a thimble full of toe jam for either one.
I have an unreasonable dislike of Bill Hall.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 17, 2008 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
You say that like you're a collector.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
You mean that you don’t collect your toe jam? I have 2 1/2 Miracle Whip jars full of it…
by Saberilliterate on Dec 18, 2008 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
When I first read the name of this post
I thought you were implying that Igawa was hall of fame bound.
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