Interesting... From CBS

by CATALYST on Feb 4, 2008 10:22 PM CST

I'm cruising through CBS, reading fantasy baseball stuff and noticed this as their "projected lineup."

Interesting lineup. I know that Yost talked about not having Braun in front of Fielder anymore... So that's wrong... But how about Hart in the 5 hole?

Milwaukee Brewers
No.    Player    Position
1.    Rickie Weeks    2B
2.    J.J. Hardy    SS
3.    Ryan Braun    LF
4.    Prince Fielder    1B
5.    Corey Hart    RF
6.    Mike Cameron    CF
7.    Bill Hall    3B
8.    Jason Kendall    C

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i think that's a good lineup

"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue

by Michael M on Feb 4, 2008 10:37 PM CST reply actions

i think Hart is great at 5

but who knows about any of it other than Weeks at 1 and probably as you say, Fielder at 3 and Braun at 4.

As crazy as it might sound, I wouldn't be surprised to see Kendall in the 2 spot if his health is good and his hitting is toward the top of his expectations.

by ol Pete on Feb 5, 2008 12:13 AM CST reply actions

Interesting you bring up Kendall...

I was looking over my pecota spread sheet earlier. Here is how they list Brewer System Caters in terms of VORP:

Eric Munson 9.9
Vinny Rotino 5.4
Angel Solome 5.0
Mike Rivera 4.5
Lou Palmisano 3.3
Jason Kendall 0.6

As most of you know, PECOTA is a projection system of how a player would do at the Major League Level, and VORP stands for Value Over Replacement Player. So what this is saying is that we have 5 catchers in our system that would do better at the major league level than Jason Kendall. And he's being paid 4.25 Million for being the 6th best catcher in our system.

Johnny Estrada is projected to have a 2.6 VORP this season.

I saw the overcrowded marketplase that is the brewers blogs and said, "Me Too!" The Chubber Lang Report

by hyattff2003 on Feb 5, 2008 12:31 AM CST reply actions

It's currently 12:30 PM, and I am exhauted

please replace caters with compares.

I saw the overcrowded marketplase that is the brewers blogs and said, "Me Too!" The Chubber Lang Report

by hyattff2003 on Feb 5, 2008 12:31 AM CST up reply actions

make that Catchers

I saw the overcrowded marketplase that is the brewers blogs and said, "Me Too!" The Chubber Lang Report

by hyattff2003 on Feb 5, 2008 12:32 AM CST up reply actions

i like hart leading off. but im tired, too...

hart
hardy
braun
fielder
cameron
weeks
hall
kendall

I play softball.

by Jamie in LA on Feb 5, 2008 1:00 AM CST up reply actions

Munson?

Calling for a breakout year at age 30, huh?

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Feb 5, 2008 7:40 AM CST up reply actions

If you call...

.251/.331/.431 a breakout w/ 11 homers and 41 RBIs, then yes.

I think his power that he is capable of plus his above .600 OPS makes him a much better option than Kendall.

I saw the overcrowded marketplase that is the brewers blogs and said, "Me Too!" The Chubber Lang Report

by hyattff2003 on Feb 5, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions

Yeah, I'm sure he'd put up a better OPS

I guess with Kendall it all comes down to hoping all the "good at managing pitchers" stuff isn't just hype and settling for a hopefully decent OBP with minimal power.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Feb 5, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions

Munson

I really don't understand all of the excitement about Eric Munson. He has never hit consistently in the majors. Last year was the first time that he has ever had a better OPS than Kendall (.669 to .610). And for all of the valid concern about Kendall's throwing, even he threw out a better percentage than Munson last year (15% to 10%).

I know some of Munson's numbers represent small sample sizes, but I just don't see anyting to get excited over.

I am not super excited about Kendall, but I think he will be an upgrade, and if he can help turn the pitching staff into what it was even two years ago (pre-Estrada) with the rest of the offense he can go 0-3 with a walk and still be an asset.

Now if Eric Munson could hit half as good a Thurman Munson we may have something.

by Infield Fly Rule on Feb 5, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions

i think

the excitements is about his possible ability to hit some in contrast to kendel

"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue

by Michael M on Feb 5, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions

I think the word "excitement"

must be a relative term.

by newguy @ Brew Crew Ball on Feb 5, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions

He was the third guy taken in the draft

He was taken because he was a great power hitter. He's hit really well for streaks throughout his career. Plus he's a good athlete, a left hander and a catcher with low miles.

by ol Pete on Feb 5, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions

here.

Weeks
Hart
Fielder
Braun
Cameron
Hall/Hardy
Hardy/Hall
Kendall

If people were making a fuss last year about Braun not being able to use his speed while hitting clean-up (i.e. behind Prince), then why wouldn't they complain about Hart not getting to use his team-best speed early in the lineup? I'm not a big stolen base fan, but Hart does it at a very high rate, which makes it valuable, and he should get on base at a .360 clip, which is more than I can say for Mr. Hardy, who does not steal bases. I just don't see a reason to give Hardy more PAs over Hart. I think Hart is hands-down the better player, and is best at #2 -- higher AVG, higher OBP, more speed, probably more power. What's the reason not to get him PAs?

Also, Prince needs a guaranteed PA in the first inning. It just makes sense to get him as many PAs as possible. Also, his higher OBP will be a good set up for the high SLG, low-to-mid OBP guys that follow him like Braun, Hall, and Cameron. (Sorry if I'm not convinced yet that Brauny will consistently post an OBP above .350. To make up for it, I am convinced that he will consistently hit mistakes pitches 400 feet long and 300 feet high about 40-50 times per year over the next decade.) All the great hitters bat #3: Pujols, Papi, Pronk, Berkman, Miggy. If Prince is our great bat, he bats third.

To boot, PECOTA likes Cameron's chances of posting an OPS north of .825. Frankly, so do I. I'd bat him fifth when he's done with the suspension, unless Billy is on a tear.

This is the lineup that makes the most sense to me.

"Cover your flesh." - Bill Haverchuck

by baumann on Feb 5, 2008 12:33 AM CST reply actions

I'd vote for that..

That's my ideal lineup too. What are the chances Nedley will see things the same way?

by balldeagle on Feb 5, 2008 6:45 AM CST up reply actions

I agree with this lineup too

though part of it is because you explain it pretty well.

Corey was underrated and overshadowed last season, and I bet Nedly will put him somewhere around 6th (to "utilize his speed") and Hardy 2nd.

FWIW, I head some of the Jim Powell Talkin' Brewers show on Saturday, and with Ned on the phone, he had the fans call in. Sure enough, one called in and asked Ned if he felt he was playing for his job, and Ned got all pissed. I'm really counting on Ted Simmons to be a better media guy than that Yost fellow.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Feb 5, 2008 7:12 AM CST up reply actions

i heard that question, too...

ned was super pissed; and i think the caller phrased the question well.

ned settled down when jim rephrased it. then gloated that he has been in 4 or 5 nl manager pictures taken at the winter meetings.

the follow up should have been; how is albert pujols? have you guys been hanging out a lot this offseason?

I play softball.

by Jamie in LA on Feb 5, 2008 1:42 PM CST up reply actions

I also

like this lineup. Plus, didn't Hardy hit better last year when he was dropped further down in the line up?

I am way too excited for this season. What do we have 3-4 weeks until spring training now?

by thekid2point0 on Feb 5, 2008 7:39 AM CST up reply actions

I like this lineup the best too.

This is the lineup I'd run out there. Except I'd start Craig Counsell at 3rd base for 10 days or so a few times when I can categorize him as the "hot hand" and bench Bill Hall. On those occassions, I'd put Counsell in the 2-hole and move Hart down to sixth. Of course Corey will be rested every third day so Mench and (insert name of other salty veteran here) can get some at-bats and stay fresh.

Oh, I almost forgot. I'd also sit Weeks, Fielder, and Braun on Sundays. On Sundays, Counsell will hit lead off, Hardy will bat third, and the hot hand will bat clean-up.

Sincerely,
Ned Yost

Don't try to do too much with it. Just take the ball the other way.

by shooty babitt on Feb 5, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions

let's not get crazy.

come on... hardy only hit 3rd 8 times. that's only, what, 5% of the season? Strange thing is they won 5 straight with hardy in the 3-hole, then lost, then lost again, and then got no hit and that ended that experiment. always had to blow up in ned's face before he quit.

and counsell leadoff and hardy 3rd... come on that's ridiculous... what's that? oh.

what are we going to laugh about when nedily is gone?

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Feb 5, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions

hmmm

what are we going to laugh about when nedily is gone?

only one way to find out... :)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Feb 5, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions

My wager

Probably the dumb things the next manager does. :)

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Feb 5, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions

That game

My case for that game has always been that any team would have been no-hit by Verlander that night.

Now, looking at that lineup...DAMN! Counsell, Graffanino, Hardy. Now I'm thinking that even Jeff Cirillo could've no-hit that lineup!

Yost didn't even have the balls to pinch hit for Counsell or Graffy in the 9th.

by newguy @ Brew Crew Ball on Feb 5, 2008 2:17 PM CST up reply actions

Yost

is the only person I've heard talking about moving Braun so he could steal. IIRC Cameron hits something like .220 against righties, so I would say flip Hart and Cameron. Cameron is fast on the basepaths as well.

Hardy did much better at the bottom of the order for whatever reason.

by ol Pete on Feb 5, 2008 7:51 PM CST up reply actions

Maybe the best part of all the lineups

Ned can't do his preferred R-L-R-L thing up and down the lineup this year.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Feb 5, 2008 7:39 AM CST reply actions

Does anyone recall

when Ned Yost said that he was going to bat Braun in the 4th spot to allow him to steal more? By this I mean, was it before or after the signing of Mike Cameron? If it was before, I can see his lineup changing and batting Braun in the 3 hole. Cameron brings much more speed to the lineup and you don't have to have everyone in the lineup steal 20 bags.

Back to Braun, he did have a 1.023 OPS in the 3 hole compared to a .777 in the 4 hole. On the flip side, Prince had a 1.101 OPS in the 4th spot with a .869 in the third. He needs Prince's protection more than Prince needs his. This seems like an easy decision that will have a heavy influence on the signing of Cameron.

So again the question needs to be asked, When did yost exactly say that Braun was batting 5th?

by brewfan2 on Feb 5, 2008 10:00 AM CST reply actions

last sentence I meant batting 4th.

by brewfan2 on Feb 5, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

Careful with the numbers

Braun only had 47 plate appearances in the cleanup spot, so you can't really say that's what he'd do batting cleanup going forward. You may as well argue Craig Counsell should start and hit sixth because he has a career OPS of 1.114 when in that spot (39 PA). I'm sure wherever each of them bats, they'll still hit pretty well - it's not like the fifth spot will be a black hole. I would guess Yost still wants Braun batting fourth even after the addition of Cameron.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Feb 5, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions

Good Point

with the numbers, but as I recall, Braun was so much different in the 4 hole that Yost almost had to put him back in the 3 spot.

I could be wrong though.

by brewfan2 on Feb 5, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions

My recollection

is that it was about a two week period and neither Prince or Ryan did very well. Personally, the old way was working so well, I think they ought to leave it. There are three good basestealers, so spread them out. Is the difference in volume of steals going to be significant depending on version A or B? I doubt it, but my guess is that Braun hits fourth. When Ned talked about it, it almost seemed as if it was something he was doing for Ryan.

by ol Pete on Feb 5, 2008 7:58 PM CST up reply actions

Counsell batting 6

Scary thing is that is EXACTLY the kind of sh*t thinking that Yost uses to make decisions on the lineup every day.

by newguy @ Brew Crew Ball on Feb 5, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

'Using their speed'

I really wish this meant we were putting the speed guys in front of the guys most likely to get extra-base hits. If Weeks, Hart, Braun or Gwynn are on first and a ball goes to the wall they score. Everybody else it's a crap shoot.

Putting Weeks, Hart and Braun in front of Prince the team is using their speed to the greatest benefit without the risk associated with a stolen base attempt or hit and run. You are essentially setting your speed guys up to steal home, instead of second base.

But I think this may be too 'visionary' for the Nedster.

by Joe on Feb 5, 2008 1:14 PM CST reply actions

What?!??

There you go, thinking again. When will you stop using your brain to make lineups, and go with your gut? Everyone knows in their gut that stolen bases spark rallies. Just look at Dave Roberts in the 2004 ALCS.

"It's called 'playing the percentages.'" --C. M. Burns

by hilbelink on Feb 5, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions

alright..my lineup and reasons..

Weeks (no other option)
Hardy (contact hitter, hits well before prince, hint hint)
Fielder (hands down best hitter)
Hart (speed, power, contact)
Braun (lot of obp in front, braun can mash)
Cameron (he CAN hit, give some pitches to swing at for braun, will strike out a lot w/ 2 outs)
Hall (could still end up batting 5th, i'm rooting for hall because i know he has skills, i hope it doesnt all go to trade bait)
Hardy (did you think i was going to bat him 9th!?)
Brooks Kieshnick (why not!?)

by rschm on Feb 5, 2008 8:07 PM CST reply actions

no

i didn't think that you would bat him 9th, but i did think that you would limit yourself to batting him only once in the lineup. i mean, if we're going to let someone hit twice in place of Kendall, let it be Prince. helll, if we can DH for the catcher, I'd let Gross and Dillon platoon.

"Cover your flesh." - Bill Haverchuck

by baumann on Feb 5, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions

My guess

Weeks 2B
Hardy SS
Fielder 1B
Braun LF
Hart RF
Cameron CF
Hall 3B
Kendall C
Pitcher

I've seen this as a possible scenario, with the thinking being that those middle 3 all can steal bases. Roughly 2 weeks until pitchers and catchers report... I'm so esscited!

by kgaul on Feb 6, 2008 12:37 PM CST reply actions

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