Comments
Butler scouting report
from DRays Bay:
Talk about a tale of two seasons. Butler had arguably the best numbers of a very talented Columbus Catfish staff, but got called up to Vero Beach toward the end of June and simply got rocked, missed nearly a month of starts, came back and was slightly more effective.
The University of San Diego product was a surprise 2nd-rounder in 2006, as his draft stock had been falling in concert with his productivity, which sparked concerns over his durability. At his best, Butler throws a low-90s fastball with good sinking actions as well as two serviceable breaking pitches and a changeup. But something really got out of whack in Vero Beach: In 49 innings there, he allowed 9 homeruns. In his previous 357 innings(combined college and pro), he allowed a total of 13.
Before the 2006 draft, BaseballAmerica mentioned that a taxing delivery might be to be blame for his decline over the course of his junior year. The report was that he didn’t incorporate his lower body enough, and that’s practically inviting an arm injury. Judging from the poor 2nd-half statistics and the time missed, I’d say the concerns over his delivery are as alive as ever. Part of the decline can be chalked up to being promoted a level, but the sharp HR rate increase makes me think it’s something else, such as not finishing on his delivery and leaving more balls up.
2007 was the second straight year Butler underwhelmed toward the end. I can probably be accused of saying this too much, but I think it applies to Butler perhaps more than anyone: I think he should make a move to the bullpen. If it is a durability issue, limiting his innings could help. Also, if efforts are made to clean up his delivery, pitching in shorter spurts might allow him to better focus on incorporating those changes.
Then again, perhaps his poor finish was a result of the injury(I can’t for the life of me find out why he missed those 3-4 starts). He was dominant in his final outing(7 innings, 2 hits, 7 strikeouts), so it might be best to see if a fully healthy Butler can be successful in Vero Beach as a starter. Either way, VB is almost certain to be where he opens 2008, and he’s still got plenty to prove.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 5:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
with Junior coming up
you have to preserve those 14 pitches somehow
by warwick5s on Apr 22, 2008 5:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unsure
I dunno what to think about this but at first glance, I don’t care for it. No sir.
"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome
by zsxander567 on Apr 22, 2008 5:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It does seem to be a waste of a quality bench player
At least we didn’t trade him for Marxist Empire though.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont like this
but I can’t fault them. Our minor league pitching is fairly unimpressive as of late (whatever happened to Inman?...ahem) and we already have a logjam of extra outfielders, not to mention LaPorta.
Ned Yost's Brewers: Braun Over Brains
by SRB on Apr 22, 2008 6:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
inman
still struggling with walk rates in AA. pretty much same place he was last year except collecting his paycheck from another club.
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Apr 22, 2008 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Garrison’s doing pretty well.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck Gabe
Gross doesn’t really have a place on the team with Gwynn and Kapler both healthy (not to mention Dillon as an IF/OF), and they probably weren’t going to get much more for him. Good luck to him in Tampa.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Apr 22, 2008 6:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Gross than Gwynn
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
Is there a market for Gabe Kapler? He has an OPS of over 1.2 and, well, he’s Gabe Kapler.
How can Gross be worth so little? Slow start notwithstanding, he can have a mini-Jenkins career, bashing against RHP and struggling against LHP. He’s not worth more than a guy with an ERA over 6 in A ball?
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 22, 2008 6:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Question
How much would you give up for Terrmel Sledge?
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Apr 22, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, another guy who got busted for roids
Sounds like our man.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plate discipline
Gross had a lot of it. Almost no other Brewers do. As pointed out in the bf.net discussion of the trade (link below), Gross had 10 of the team’s 51 walks.
http://brewersfandemonium.yuku.com/sreply/332592/t/Gabe-Gross-traded-Tampa-Bay—minor-league-pitcher-Josh-But.html
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 7:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Er, make that 57
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again
that can be attributed to a small sample size. For example, Weeks was much better at drawing a walk over the entire season last year than Gross.
Ned Yost's Brewers: Braun Over Brains
by SRB on Apr 22, 2008 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much of that comes from batting in front of the pitcher?
Sure, you still have to actually take the pitches but if they’re pitching around you, it makes it easier.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Apr 22, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a valid point
In the last five games, all batting in the #7 spot, Gross walked seven times.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That forum reminds me a lot of the comments section at the Journal.
by ol Pete on Apr 22, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did all this Gross love come from?
The last week and a half there have been a lot of complaints about Gross playing so much. Why the switch all of a sudden?
The way I look at it is that Gross didn’t have a huge upside and we get a 2nd round player with at least some upside. Gross had a great eye, but TGjr is more valuable.
If this guy makes it too the majors and has some success, this trade would have been worth it.
by brewfan2 on Apr 22, 2008 8:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
different guys
the gross haters aren’t posting too much in this thread.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 22, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't hate Gross
He does seem like a guy who does better when he has more playing time, but it sure seems like a no-brainer to trade him when there are too many outfielders up in Milwaukee and crowding around the minors.
I like Gwynn though, and it seems a lot of people who like Gross see him as an alternative to Gwynn and there are a lot of Gwynn haters.
by ol Pete on Apr 22, 2008 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scouting Report from Baseball America
Butler reached high Class A in his first full pro season, continuing to show filthy stuff even after a sprained thumb cost him three weeks starting in mid-July. The 47th overall pick in 2006, he had his pro debut cut short by biceps tendinitis. His arm strength returned last season, and he has one of the best repertiores among Tampa Bay pitching prospects. Butler owns a 92-95 fastball with outstanding movement, including late sinking action. He also has an overhand curveball with tight spin and a hard, sharp slider. His changeup continues to show improvement, though he tends to abandon the pitch too readily. The Rays like Butler’s competitive streak and his work ethic. He simply needs innings against better competition so he can become more consistent with with his changeup and his release. Tampa Bay has worked with him to incorporate his legs more in his delivery. He’ll open the season back in class A and should move up to Double-A at some point in 2008.
Obviously a lot more optimistic. But I like guys that can be effective while doing their job. And it doesn’t really boost my hopes seeing that he’s getting rocked in the pitching friendly FSL. Oh well, maybe he be decent
by Hyatt on Apr 22, 2008 8:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to complain
At times, it felt like Gross was only being kept around because he had options/was left handed.
by drezdn on Apr 22, 2008 8:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Better than being kept around because you're the son of a HOFer
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if that is the only reason they are keeping TGjr
Then why haven’t they traded him I know San Diego ask for him first last year during the talks for Linebrink But Melvin said no I guess Doug just has to have a son of a HOFer on the team or he does not feel right. I could see San Diego keeping him around for that reason but why would the Brewers?
I am very happy to see Gross go he was not going to get any playing time after Cameron got back anyway. I think the Brewers will survive without him
Good riddance
Its all about the Bullpen this season that is the key.
by WSB Chris on Apr 22, 2008 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not the reason they're keeping him
They’re keeping him because they think he’s a good baseball player. The problem is, he isn’t, at least not compared to other options.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what other options?
Surely not Gross.
by ol Pete on Apr 22, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Gross
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 22, 2008 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gross vs TGjr
Gross is probably the better overall player, but sometimes that’s not preferable. We don’t need another starting outfielder or platoon outfielder once Cameron comes back, and TGjr could be considered a better situational guy to have on the bench. They’re both LF, Gwynn is decent as a pinch runner, and I would argue Gwynn is a marginally better fielder. Add in the fact that he’s younger and has more upside, and this move makes sense.
It’s not a big deal either way though, Cameron will be back soon and when he is Kapler has earned his spot as the fourth outfielder in line.
Ned Yost's Brewers: Braun Over Brains
by SRB on Apr 22, 2008 9:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on Kapler
I should have said 4th/5th below. But as far as insurance for the future, a former minor league manger is probably not going to be around too long..
by throughhyperspace on Apr 22, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gwynn is a significantly better overall player IMO
Way better defender, better overall hitter, better baserunner.
by ol Pete on Apr 22, 2008 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree with that
I like TG a little better, too. However, Gross is a pretty reliable RHP hitter on a team that doesn’t hit righties (northpaws?) well. He’s also a good source of power from the bench - I might be misremembering, but I thought he might have won a game or two for us with game-winning home runs.
Having said all that, he’s not going to play ahead of Cameron, Braun, or Hart, and TG probably gives you more options late in the game.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 23, 2008 6:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good riddance
If only so it is one less ‘favorite’ for Yost to play ahead of better players. If Gross had stuck around, he would have stolen a minimum of 50 PAs from Braun as a ‘defensive replacement’.
by Getting Yosted on Apr 22, 2008 9:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Defensive replacement
What is that based on? Surely not the fact that Braun’s been removed before the end of the game once since the Cubs series to open the year.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Apr 22, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gross has been playing regularly
With the injuries/suspensions, Ned has been able to scratch his Gross itch. Even then Braun has come out of two games this season for ‘defense’. Once Gross was freed up from the burden of sucking for an entire game, Yost would have been looking for excuses to allow Gross to suck for an inning or two.
by Getting Yosted on Apr 23, 2008 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Because you say so. :)
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Apr 23, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gross v Gwynn
If they’re both 4th OF’s, TG seems to have the greater value off the bench. TG is more better defensively and has speed. Gross may have more power and perhaps a better eye, but I’m happy to keep Gwynn. Now if they end up trading Gwynn this year this trade looses its value in upside(depending on the deal, of course).
Especially if it is because Kapler is still producing. I hope he is, but that makes Gywnn more expendable. Then we’re stuck with an option year for Cameron and a previously retired backup outfielder. (who knows LaPorta’s timetable)
On Josh Butler, I’d like to think the stache saw a worthwhile semi-reclamation product. Perhaps a (continuing) mechanical change to take stress off the arm and/or a move to bullpen. A sprained thumb sounds much better then the Ray’s Bay made it seem. If Melvin thinks he can make it the show in 2-3 years, I’m all for the trade.
by throughhyperspace on Apr 22, 2008 9:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"TG is more better"
talk about a half-assed edit.. more valuable/better defensively..
by throughhyperspace on Apr 22, 2008 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom Line
After some thinking, the way I see it is someone had to go for when Cameron comes back along with the 14 pitcher craziness so he just sort of got the short end of the stick (or bat). I don’t see it as a knock to him though.
"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome
by zsxander567 on Apr 22, 2008 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
5 Games
With 5 games left on Cameron’s suspension we will have to make another move within the next week. I tend to feel Melvin isn’t going to allow this 14 man pitching staff all season and the Cameron return would most likely be the best time to scrap that before Yost becomes too comfortable with it. So who is the odd man out?
Stetter seems to be the most obvious choice to me, but it sure does sound like Yost likes the double LOOGY.
Turnbow hasn’t done anything to get us excited about.
Bush seems like the odd man out of the rotation at this point.
Parra hasn’t looked spectacular and hasn’t made it past the 5th inning if my memory serves me right. I also believe he has options.
McClung has pitched well, but I can easily see a scenario where they would prefer Bush for the long man and try to trade McClung or attempt to pass him through waivers (which if I had to guess, might be difficult due to recent performances).
The only other option that comes to mind at this moment is Sheets to the DL. as much as I hate to say it, I have a feeling this is the option most likely to happen.
"He's been very, very impressive," Yost said. "I mean really impressive. I mean really, really impressive."
by MadJimiBrewha on Apr 22, 2008 11:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hear me now and believe me later
Kapler gets cut, Josh Butler gets called up.
:)
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 23, 2008 6:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall before the season that Yost wanted a 13 man pitching staff and Melvin said no. I think it was either McCalvy or Haudricourt, but maybe its just talk radio blather. That would mean two guys out of there.
McClung has been instrumental in wins, Bush in losses but you may be right. Mota scares me the most when he is in there… well, other than Derrek.
by ol Pete on Apr 23, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
heard Melvin on the radio this morning – sounded like 13 man pitching staff for a while
by ol Pete on Apr 23, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take...
I grudgingly think this has to be considered a good move by Moustache. He got a serviceable pitching prospect for a spare part that he would’ve had to discard for nothing in a week. That said, I think he traded the wrong guy, and I don’t mean TG Jr. We need LH power on the bench for the postseason. When there’s 2 outs in the 9th inning and we’re down by 1, is there anybody here who would rather send in TG Jr to PH vs Jonathan Papelbon rather than Gross? The guy he should’ve traded is our RH bench player, Kapler. When Cameron gets back we’ll be even more RH-dominant. Kapler will come down to earth over the course of the year and post similar numbers to Gross, but his numbers vs RHP will likely be far less than Gross’ will.
by balldeagle on Apr 23, 2008 9:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I Agree
Particularly with the part about Kapler coming down to earth. He would seem like the ideal buy-low sell-high type of move before he does in fact come down to earth. Especially based on the fact that he is indeed another right-handed bat on a team loaded with right-handed bats.
"He's been very, very impressive," Yost said. "I mean really impressive. I mean really, really impressive."
by MadJimiBrewha on Apr 23, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn’t have said it better. This move makes me angry.
by Braunstalker on Apr 23, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun fact about the trade
Brevard County (go Manatees!) was playing Vero Beach when the trade was made. Butler just had to switch dugouts.
by drezdn on Apr 23, 2008 2:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For more commentary on Josh Butler
Check out this thread on John Sickels’ site.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Apr 24, 2008 2:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

























