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Ned, Three Games In

At this site (and plenty of others) talk about the Brewers constantly shifts to talk about Ned Yost.   There are plenty of us who have had our issues with Ned in the past, and I have no doubt he'll continue to give us plenty of fodder in 2008.

But, surprised as I am to say it, I'm a Ned fan right now.  It's tough to know just how much of any decision should be credited to Ned or to the front office, but at the very least, there are a handful of things that Ned hasn't screwed up.

  1. Pitcher batting eighth.  Since we've been talking about it for weeks, it's easy to lose sight of just how big this is.  I don't mean big in terms of won-loss implications--I know that swapping two guys in the batting order isn't going to make a huge difference.  But this is a very gutsy thing, and it's going to lead to plenty of questions in the press.  (It sounds like Jim Powell, for one, brings it up constantly.)  Managers have done it before, but if Ned does this for the entire season...well, hats off to him.

  2. Playing the best eight.  I heard plenty of complaints earlier in the week when Gabe Kapler got a start the day after Tony Gwynn turned in his opening day heroics.  One game does not a superstar make.  Neither Gwynn or Kapler should be a major league starter, but platooning them does make the combination more credible.  Ned didn't play the hot hand: he stuck with the plan.  Further, we haven't seen a start from Counsell yet.  I'm sure we will, and the occasional one is okay, but I'm always worried that a cold streak from Rickie or Bill Hall will lead to 3 Counsell starts per week.

  3. Bullpen management.  We haven't seen a lot of issues yet, but so far, so good.  This is probably more about Doug Melvin than anything else, but regardless of who to credit, it looks good.  For now, I'll trust that using Riske for two innings was simply a matter of capitalizing on somebody with good stuff--not a danger sign that Riske will be overused.  We haven't seen Shouse face a righty yet, either.  (Granted, we haven't seen Shouse at all.)

  4. Cutting Vargas.  I published a little diatribe back when Ned was talking about "maintaining the depth."  In short, that was a way of defending himself for keeping Vargas even if Claudio wasn't one of the best options.  Well, as it turned out, Ned and/or the brain trust made a gutsy decision.  It saved a few bucks, but not enough for that to be the main factor.  It's possible we'll have a rotation at some point with Villanueva, Parra, and Gallardo--three youngsters, two of whom could easily have been demoted or sent to the 'pen in favor of a decidedly mediocre veteran.  I don't even feel that strongly about cutting Vargas; what impresses me is the fact that a contending team made the call to go with youth over more of a "known quantity."  It might backfire, but it might also be the difference between 88 wins and 85 wins.

  5. Dave Bush today.  Judging from the comments in the game thread, many of you think Bush should have been pulled earlier--maybe as early as the 4th inning.  You might be right.  But there are a lot of reasons you might be wrong.  First off, we've got two games coming right up with two young starters.  I wouldn't want to use the 'pen for 5+ innings if I didn't have to.  Second, there's no guarantee McClung (especially if he had to go all the way through the order, maybe even more) would be better than an off-his-game Bush.  We've also seen plenty of outings in the past when Bush got it together after a rough inning or two.  The decision didn't pan out all that great today, but I'm a firm believer in sticking with the horse you rode in on (to a certain point, anyway).  When evaluating managerial decisions during a game, it's easy to confuse action with effectiveness--any manager can emulate Tony LaRussa and make move after move after move.  But sometimes the most effective move is the one you didn't make.  It may even turn out that leaving Bush in was a good call today if we end up needing a lot of innings from the bullpen this weekend. 

Of course, I reserve the right to get seethingly angry with Ned in tomorrow's game.  But for now, it looks to me like we have downright decent skipper.

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Argh

I'm watching the Ned Yost post game...the dislike is washing over me again. Contentious prick.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Apr 3, 2008 4:41 PM CDT   0 recs

haha

I'm glad I'm not watching. It's one benefit of sticking to mlb.tv. I can't imagine I'd like him personally, and every time I see him talk just solidifies that.

but hey, pitcher batting eighth! :)

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2008 4:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I had hoped that Simmons would be doing the post-games

It's not like people are asking Ned tough questions, and he's being such an ass. The reporters are asking nice, creampuff questions (Are you excited to be going home? Are you happy to win against Chicago? etc.), and his responses are so surly, bordering on obnoxious.

You can put up with this unrestrained hatred for reporters if you're a managing genius. When you're Ned Yost, though, you should try to be a little nice. Asshat.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Apr 3, 2008 4:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Give him a chance

Ned likes the way you conduct your business, Sackie.

by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 3, 2008 4:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

three games in and things are edgy

My mind is boggled by his description of Bulldog's performance. Oh if only a reporter would ask him if it was "pleasant to watch" or asked him about those two pitches that he added.

I guess he had beliefs (Bushy) and he gambled and lost. There's something to be said for that.

by ol Pete on Apr 3, 2008 5:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You're mostly right

Ned should have pulled Dave Bush earlier, though. Somewhere around noon.

by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 3, 2008 4:57 PM CDT   0 recs

You really like the pitcher batting 8th, eh?

Beyond the novelty of it, I just don't see the attraction. Now, if he'd moved Braun and Fielder up to 2 and 3, then I'd be on board, but just flipping Kendall into the 9th spot feels like a half-hearted effort to me.

Now, with the home opener coming, and three games against an awful Giants team, and Brian Shouse thus far unused, I sense the opportunity for Yostings over the weekend. Fear not, they will come.

by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 3, 2008 5:05 PM CDT   0 recs

I really do

It is an improvement, though maybe not as much as Braun at #2.

As with a couple of the other things on the list, it's not that they are such a big deal, runs-wise, or that I feel that strongly about them in the first place, but that it shows he's willing to do something that is both unusual and smart. It might not be his idea, but stats guys (including in-house guys) have been harping on lineup construction stuff for a long time, and everyone except for TLR has ignored them.

I guess for me it's like finding out that my boss just gave an unsung, self-effacing co-worker a raise. It doesn't make my life better, it might have nothing to do with me ever getting a raise, but it shows he's prioritizing the right stuff and acting on it.

(Though I realize you're right, the Yostings will come.)

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2008 5:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitcher Batting 8th is optimal, but not by much.

According to "The Book - Playing the Percentages in Baseball". Batting the pitcher 8th vs. 9th does increase a NL team's runs. But the increase is only 0.012 per game (about two runs per season). So it is really not a big deal. See pages 147-149.

by 16 Lezcano - RF on Apr 3, 2008 8:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So far

I give Ned an 'A'. Wow, did I just type that?

If we were batting Braun 2, it would be an A+.

by Braunstalker on Apr 3, 2008 5:35 PM CDT   0 recs

i'm all for going with the young guys

How will you feel if one of them goes to AAA and Bush stays up? I don't really get Kapler and even Gross is kind of a question mark. Maybe they're being marketed or something.

by ol Pete on Apr 3, 2008 5:36 PM CDT   0 recs

I agree

I posted the first thread of why Kapler was starting after Gywnn was the MVP... but in reality neither are should be everyday players... and Kapler does bat about .290 against lefties... It was the batting him #2 that bothered me.

I like his decisions on pitching so far, waiving Vargas, letting Parra and Villenueva into the roation, and letting Riske go yesterday.

If Hart was batting 5 instead of Hall and someone else batting 2 he would get an A. So B+ right now... but it is early in the season.

This is early in the year, the part that killed us last year was the management of our pitcher' innings, so it is easy with three games in four days to start the season, but when someone goes down with an injury and we get in a lot of tight games, managing will become crucial.

by Kyguy922 on Apr 3, 2008 5:55 PM CDT   0 recs

I'm with you

on this.

B+.

My question is if Bush continues this way, will he move to the bullpen when Gallardo comes back?

by KDean75 on Apr 4, 2008 11:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank You

I'm about as far from a Yost apologist as they come, but in tracking some of the game threads so far, I felt like people were really getting picky with some of their complaints about things Ned didn't do. You lose some credibility when you give the man no credit for anything. Jeff, your post was spot on, and timely. I have seen nothing so far that warrants a "here we go again" mentality. Let's give it a bit of time before we go after Ned again--especially now that they won their first series of the year--on the road at Wrigley.

by James Stanley Cocanower on Apr 3, 2008 7:02 PM CDT   0 recs

I believe you mean

Miller Park South

by Stoa on Apr 3, 2008 7:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of managerial bravery

Bobby Cox just put Chris Resop in LF to save him for after Royce Ring pitched to Adam LaRoche (lefty-lefty). I always wanted to see someone do that.

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on Apr 3, 2008 9:28 PM CDT   0 recs

wow!

I've always wanted to see that, and I've especially wanted to see that pitcher get an outfield assist. You know they have the arm for it...

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2008 9:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You had to know I'd take the bait

This is the only instance I can find since 1956 and it doesn't really count because the pitcher involved never took the mound, but it does involve two guys in the outfield switching back and forth a lot, which is almost as good.

September 10, 1980, LA Dodgers at Houston

In the bottom of the 11th, Houston was trailing 5-3 and for some reason Bobby Castillo replaced Bobby Mitchell (weird, since Mitchell was an outfielder and had just scored the go-ahead run). In any event, Castillo took over in right field and proceeded to switch between left and right field with Dusty Baker, depending on the handedness of the upcoming hitter. Long story short, the Astros tied the game on a single by Gary Woods and had the bases loaded with only one out. Enos Cabell came up and because he was a righty, Castillo was in the right field. Wouldn't you know it that Cabell flies out to Castillo who proceeds to gun down Julio Gonzalez trying to score. It was all for naught, though, as the Dodgers failed to score in the 12th and Jose Cruz hit a walk-off in the bottom of that inning.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Apr 3, 2008 10:04 PM CDT to parent up   1 recs

Wait, what are we talking about?

Putting a pitcher in the outfield for one batter, and then bringing him back? I'd trust The Jay over my own memory, but I would have sworn I saw the Cardinals do that in the 80s or maybe the early 90s (either Whitey Herzog or Joe Torre). I seem to recall moving him to right field, and I don't think a ball was hit to him.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Apr 3, 2008 11:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, that happens a fair amount

I was looking for a pitcher in the outfield who got an assist.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Apr 3, 2008 11:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I take it

Cirillo doesn't count. :)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Apr 3, 2008 11:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Brewers did that once

I remember as a kid the Brewers moved a pitcher to 1B for a batter (Chuck Crim) perhaps? Shoot, I need to go to baseball-reference...

by grant76 on Apr 4, 2008 7:42 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

June 6 1989

Chuck Crim loaded the bases with one out in the bottom of the 9th clinging to a 6-3 lead.

The Brewers brought in the lefty Tony Fossas, to face switch-hitting Nelso Liriano and moved Crim to first.

Fossas promptly gave up a single and was removed with the Brewers up 6-4.

Crim moved back to pitcher and got a flyout and strikeout to get out of his own jam.

And you all think Ned makes some weird decisions.....

by grant76 on Apr 4, 2008 8:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bush

Being one of the people calling for the pull + not having McClung in. After my young, excitability wore off I agree it definitely does help the pen in the long run but I'd still argue for pulling him earlier like the 5th. If he keeps giving up runs, even if its 1 an inning, it just becomes a slipper slope. I'd like to have seen Shouse in perhaps instead of McClung. I mean he's got so much grit. However being a newbie here I'm certainly open to mostlikely more knowledgeable opinions than I from everyone.

"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome

by zsxander567 on Apr 4, 2008 2:49 AM CDT   0 recs

Saw signs of the ol' Ned yesterday

The biggest thing that bothered me so far this season was Ned Yost double-switching out Ryan Braun for Gabe Gross when the team was down by 3 runs. To score 3 runs you're probably going to have to go through the order again which means that spot will likely come up in a key situation if you're making a comeback.

It was basically a "give-up" move and I don't think this team should be giving up when only down by three against your likely #1 division rival. It's one of those moves that didn't really affect the game but bothered me nonetheless.

by kingcharlesxii on Apr 4, 2008 12:58 PM CDT   0 recs

I thought that was ok.

Braun made the last out of the 8th.The worst case scenario would be that the Brewers tie the game with three runs and load the bases with two out to get back to Braun's spot. It wasn't likely that they would get back to his spot. and if they did they probably would have had the lead.

by grant76 on Apr 4, 2008 1:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't too bothered by it either,

but the bigger concern is that the game goes into extras. And I guess when you're in extras, there's no clear rule on whether you want defense or offense ... Gabe's high OBP and quality corner defense might be better when you're playing for 1 run than Braun's power + risk of extra-base errors.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 4, 2008 1:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

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Jeff Suppan is due to be activated from the DL on Tuesday. What should the Brewers do with the rotation?
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