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Dave Bush

One of the key questions for the Brewers over the next couple of weeks is: Just how good is Dave Bush?  Or, more specifically: How good can we expect him to be between now and October?

There's no disputing the fact that Bush has pitched poorly thus far.  His ERA is about 7.00, and while his FIP is better, it's only a run less.  If you think his performance with runners on is something that will continue, it's possible that his FIP is overly optimistic.  His xFIP (adjusting for the number of fly balls that leave the park) is better yet, but at 5.29, it's still not something he's about to put on his business card.

All of these numbers, though, refer to 5 starts.  30 innings.  It's certainly troublesome that the only 2008 data we have to go on is so bad, but every league average pitcher is going to have a stretch like this.  Even Ben Sheets, in his tremendous 2004 campaign (season ERA: 2.70), had a stretch of 45+ IP in which his ERA was 5.40.

Do we know that Bush is just going through a rough time, and that he'll turn things around?  No, we don't.  But we are talking about a 28 year old pitcher with over 100 career starts, 60+ of which came on the same team in the same park against the same league.  Very few players fall apart in their late 20s, and a pitcher is much more likely to perform in line with a sample of 400+ IP than with a sample of 30.

ZiPS projected Bush to have an ERA of 4.64 this year.  That's actually on the pessimistic side as far as projections go; my system, MINER, forecast him 4.46, while CHONE, another extremely accurate system, figured him for 4.38.  Those numbers reflect historical data that suggests that pitchers in their late 20s generally keep chugging along at their established rates.  Even in Bush's bad-for-him 2007, he was just about average for a starting pitcher, and that's where the projections put him for 2008.

Of course, a projection isn't a guarantee.  I looked at the set of ZiPS projections from 2007 to see how starters with similar forecasts fared.  Here are 8 guys who were projected to have ERAs between 4.59 and 4.69, and how they did in 2007:

  • Jon Garland, 4.23
  • Joe Blanton, 3.95
  • Paul Maholm, 5.02
  • Matt Chico, 4.63
  • Esteban Loaiza, 5.79 (in 7 GS)
  • Miguel Batista, 4.29
  • Ricky Nolasco, 5.48 (in 4 GS)
  • Orlando Hernandez, 3.72

Of those, closest comp is probably Garland, as he's the only one on the list within a year of Bush's age.  This is all just for illustration -- there's a reason projections are based on huge pools of aggregate data, not simply on a small group of comparable players.  But the point should be clear: pitchers with similar track records to Bush's usually end up somewhere around that level.

Now to switch gears.  It's become fashionable in some stathead circles to say that "scouting knowledge trumps statistical forecasts."  The idea is that if a pitcher changes his arm slot, or loses velocity, or has a nagging injury, then all bets are off.  To some extent that's true, and thanks to the great work of guys like Josh, we can start to analyze some of those things in a more rigorous way than just pointing and frowning.

I'm no professional scout, but I find it hard to identify noticeable differences in Bush's skills this year compared to previous years.  He has never dominated, and even when he's pitching well, he seems to throw a lot of straight fastballs.  To say his 7.00 ERA is due to a bunch of straight fastballs is to ignore where his straight fastballs (plus excellent control) got him in the first place.

And for better or worse, one of the better ways we have of knowing whether something is really wrong is by seeing how a player's team treats him.  Obviously the Brewers weren't thrilled with what they saw in Vargas, or they would've kept him.  We don't know whether Maddux, Yost, and Melvin think that Bush is still as good as he has been for the last four years, but we can be pretty sure that they thought he was better than Vargas, and they now think he's better than DiFelice, Narveson, or McClung.  (That's not an enthusiastic endorsement, I know.)

In May 2006, Bush had one stretch that looks almost identical to his start this year.   Of course, it didn't turn out that he was done--he followed  it with seven quality starts in his next eight outings.  I have no idea whether we'll get anything like that from Bush starting tonight, but the preponderance of evidence we have to go on suggests we'll get something a whole lot more like 4.64 and a whole lot less like 6.98.

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Excellent post Jeff

The only thing that worries me about Bush is the walks. As you say his fastball is straight and it is going to get hit. As long as the bases are empty this isn’t a huge problem itself but if he walks a bunch of guys first then you have a problem. He already has given up 14 walks in less than 30 inning which is just not going to cut it. That said, the only game that was really terrible as far as the walks go was his debut against the Cubs where he walked five. The other games have been in the not great but acceptable range.

BTW, thanks for the plug.

Visit my baseball blog ...or else!

by dixieflatline on May 12, 2008 1:27 PM CDT   0 recs

I wonder...

Obviously Bush knows he’s getting hit hard, so it would be natural for him to start nibbling more, leading to the walks. It would be interesting to see if bad luck (i.e., high BABIP or HR/F) leads to more walks, or at least a lower strike%.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 1:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

darn it Jeff!

You aren’t supposed to give me ideas like that. I have enough stuff I want to study. It is on the “cool things to look at list” but don’t expect any results any time soon :)

Visit my baseball blog ...or else!

by dixieflatline on May 12, 2008 1:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well,

I didn’t mean to put it on YOUR list … at least as far as walk rate and strike% goes, those are things I can do.

That said, I think there are as many things ranked higher on my list as on yours.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 2:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the scariest part

about the possibility of Bush’s impending demise is the fact we may have turned Lyle Overbay into Josh Butler.

by somethingvague on May 12, 2008 1:55 PM CDT   0 recs

we got two years of league average starting

from Bush. If he goes down in the first inning tonight and never pitches another inning in the majors, we’ll have gotten a LOT more than Josh Butler.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 2:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you're right

although in fairness while it’s pragmatic, it’s tough to get excited about “league average”

by somethingvague on May 12, 2008 2:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if you want to get excited about league average

just imagine replacing 32 jeff suppan starts with 32 jeff weaver starts. (or ben hendrickson starts, or JDLR starts.)

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 2:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

it is hard to be excited about “league average” but its another thing to be satisfied with “league average”

Overall I think Bush has done a decent job here over his time though he is definitely struggling now. Hopefully he turn it around soon and get back to that “league average.” If he can do that then I’ll be content with his output. Villy is the one I’m worried about. Will he show that he has what it takes to be a starter long term or is he a better fit for the pen?

Can't pitch Gagne in rain. He’s like the B-2 bomber of baseball.--TheJay

by verno329 on May 12, 2008 3:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Last year should have been a breakout year.

In 2006, his K/9 rate was up a decent 7.11, his BB/9 rate was a microscopic 1.63 giving him a K/BB rate of 4.37 tied for best in the National League. His HR/9 was fine at 1.0, so he had all the peripherals of a guy that should have been closer to his 3.98 FIP

So why didn’t he break out in 2007 at age 27? His BB were up a bit, his Ks were down a bit, and his BABIp was up (.327) suggesting a combination of diminishing skill and luck.

My theory is that the jump from pitching 136 innings in 2005 to pitching 210 in 2006 took its toll. Its not a theory that I like, but there you have it, its the only thing I can think of.

I agree with Jeff, that DB should be a serviceable 3rd or 4th pitcher. Right now he’s not, and I don’t know why.

by grant76 on May 12, 2008 3:53 PM CDT   0 recs

innings

He pitched 55 minor league innings in ‘05, for a total of 190+ that year.

We’re hitting on a common theme here, though. The babip was up, by a lot, at the same time his walks went up. The babip could be partly bad luck, but some of that blame definitely goes to the defense. In 04-06, his BABIP was consistently in the .280 range; in 07 it was .050 higher. In other words, 18% more balls were falling in for hits, possibly having nothing to do with anything he was doing on the mound.

It’s understandable, then, that he would try to do more to avoid getting the defense involved. Heck, it’s possible that Maddux coached him in that direction—if he could’ve gotten more K’s out of the deal, it would have been a few more BB’s along with fewer balls for the defense to miss.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 4:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well his FIP went up too

But you could be right that he was thinking about it and trying to do too much.

One more thing this year is that his LOB% is only about 60% which is pretty bad (mental?). His fly ball and HR rates are also up. THough his LD rate is down. Weird.

by grant76 on May 12, 2008 5:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Giving up runs

Here’s my frustration with Dave Bush the starter: He’s only effective for four innings.

I had an hour to kill today so I crunched the numbers from Dave Bush’s last 20 starts.

He gave up a run in the first inning of 45% of his last 20 starts. In all but one occasion, it was one run.
He gave up a run in the second inning in 25% of those starts.
He gave up a run in the third inning in 21.1% of opportunities (in 1 start, he was pulled before this point).
He gave up a run in the fourth inning in 42.1% of opportunities (again, excluding one game where he was gone).
He allowed a run in the fifth inning of 33.3% of his 18 opportunities, including four of his last five starts.
He allowed a run in the sixth inning of 41.2% of his 17 opportunities, including five of his last six starts.
He’s been allowed to pitch into the seventh inning 6 times during this stretch, and allowed a run in the inning in five of those games.

Here’s Bush’s ERA (including unearned runs) by inning. The first number is his last 20 starts, the number in parentheses is just 2008:

1st: 6.30 (1.80 in 2008)
2nd: 4.05 (3.60 in 2008)
3rd: 3.79 (7.20 in 2008)
4th: 5.21 (3.60 in 2008)
5th: 6.00 (12.60 in 2008)
6th: 6.88 (16.20 in 2008)
7th: 9.00 (hasn’t appeared in 2008)

So can we agree that his effectiveness, at least in his last 20 starts, has dramatically declined after 3-4 innings, making it a dicey proposition to continue to rely on him as a starting pitcher expected to consistently go 6?

by KLSnow on May 12, 2008 6:07 PM CDT   0 recs

or in simpler terms

it’s the common refrain “Dave Bush can’t get through the batting order a third time”. His WHIP is around 1.5 this year, or about 6 baserunners in four innings, for 18 batters (if we ignore the occasional DP or CS). So at the end of those four, he’s almost exactly gone through the order twice on average, and he’s likely going to face the good part of the lineup in the fifth.

When he was still more economical with the hits and walks, he had a better chance of still facing the bottom of the lineup during the fifth and getting out of that one unscathed…there’s a reason he’s been known for the 6th-inning blowup in the past. Those simply seem to be coming one inning earlier now, thanks to him giving up more runners early on.

by Zeyes on May 12, 2008 7:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

First inning run: check

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 12, 2008 7:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

we can agree about his last 20 starts, but...

does it really matter?

for one thing, there’s no law that a SP has to be pushed to go 6 every time. I’d much rather have 5 solid from our guys right now than 5.1 with a run or two in the fifth and a mess for Riske to clean up. Sure, we’d all love to have league average starters who give us 6 IP every time, but…. we don’t have 3 of those, let alone 5.

further, if you go back further, it’s not at all a clear trend for Bush. The lg average OPS for 1st/2nd/3rd times through the order is 715/750/821—in other words, the average pitcher gets worse. Bush, in his career, is 804/696/791. 07 is ugly: 804/669/999 … but 06: 828/605/650. maybe the increased walks (discussed above) are leading to higher pitch counts, or maybe he nibbles more later in games, or who knows, but it’s far from a slam-dunk case that we can’t rely on Bush to be decent for 6 IP.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 9:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Trenni just got done announcing that Ned was gonna “have” to push the starters a little harder, ask them to go a little longer, until this “bullpen thing” gets figured out.

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 12, 2008 10:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm willing to make a deal

Ned can have 13 pitchers the whole f’ing season, if he, the coaching staff, and all the media people agree never to mention bullpen overwork every again.

Sounds fair, right?

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 12, 2008 10:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it matters.

Now, I recognize I’m arguing against a guy immediately after he pitched well, but regardless of that, to answer your question, yes, it does matter.

20 starts push him all the way back to July of last year. He was allowed to pitch into the sixth inning in 17 of 20 starts and imploded at a fairly high rate. We’ve established ad nauseum that the sixth inning is not a place where he should be pitching. But management has still left him in for 17 of those 20 games.

Is that all his fault? No. But if Ned’s going to insist on riding him until he implodes every fifth day and he consistently does it in the fifth or sixth, then his performance combines with Ned’s inability to adjust for it and creates a problem.

With that said, a later commenter noted an adjustment he may have made. It seems like, with a good performance tonight, he’s earned a shot to prove he can make that stick.

by KLSnow on May 13, 2008 8:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the knock against Bush not pitching deep....

is mostly anecdotal. Sure he has melted down for some big innings, but the idea that he is just a five inning pitcher doesn’t seem right to me. This year he has just been a bad pitcher, but if you look back to the 2006 season, he pitched through 7 innings in 15 starts. he had 3 complete games and 2 shutouts.

In fact his best inning was probably the 7th where his OPS was a mere .579. His next best inning was the sixth inning where his OPS was .590.

-

by grant76 on May 13, 2008 8:59 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Merely anecdotal?

The thing is, I compiled data from his last 20 starts so I’d have information that wasn’t purely anecdotal. That data includes all of his starts for nearly a full season. How much more do you want?

by KLSnow on May 13, 2008 10:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why 20, though?

what’s so special about 20? if that’s how much time you had, then fine, but recognize the limitations.

but if you did 40, or 50, you’d get totally different results.

if we did all of our projections and judgments off of 2/3 of a season, they wouldn’t be nearly as good.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 13, 2008 10:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why more than 20?

How far back do we have to go to get a feel for a pitcher’s current abilities? Are his starts last May worth as much for evaluation purposes as his starts from this May?

I stopped at 20 partly because I didn’t want to spend all day gathering stats on something I was only going to post in a the comments of a post that was already getting outdated. But I also stand by the logic that, if you’re looking for the current abilities/failings of a pitcher, the data from his last start going back to his 10th start is more valuable than 21-30, or 21-50.

by KLSnow on May 13, 2008 7:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The data is biased a little

How late a pitcher pitches in the game is causally related to how well he’s pitching.

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 13, 2008 10:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

does that make you

a causal fan?

(sorry, I’ve been waiting for this opportunity for days)

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 13, 2008 10:50 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Right

And Bush is good enough in the early innings, and especially the third and fourth, to merit being allowed to pitch in the fifth and sixth consistently…but he also consistently tails off, sometimes violently so, in that space.

by KLSnow on May 13, 2008 7:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bush vs. the world

From the mlb.com recap:

Bush threw 92 pitches, 59 of them strikes, and pounded the inner half of the plate. That marked a bit of a departure from the philosophy espoused by Yost and other coaches - to own the low-and-away strike and work from there - and more of a return to the way Bush worked when he joined the Brewers for the 2006 season.


Bush has downplayed that philosophical difference, but he has been working on the adjustment for some time. He first mentioned it on April 15, after he surrendered three runs in six innings of a loss to the Cardinals at Busch Stadium.


“I like staying on the attack to both sides of the plate, and I felt like there were times that we were encouraged not to,” Bush said. “It’s something we’ve talked about as a staff and with the coaches, as far as taking maybe a slightly different approach after the game. I think the last couple of days we have done that and had good results.”


Said Yost: “His strength is really inside, and I think we’ve been trying to get him to command the outside part of the plate a little bit more than he was comfortable with. It opened up his game today.”

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 13, 2008 12:13 AM CDT   0 recs

I wonder....

If they sent him too the minors to test out his theory

by grant76 on May 13, 2008 9:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

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