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On Yost and The Great Disconnect

Star-divide

Anti-Yostian feelings are coming back to the surface now that we've hit .500. Given how much he was reviled last September, it makes sense. I got into a discussion last night about how much Yost is really to blame for what's happened thus far. My take is: not much. He didn't blow out Gallardo's knee, or put a hex on Rickie's bat, or not offer a slightly higher contract offer to Cordero so we wouldn't be stuck with a slovenly, post-'roidal, sub-par closer who now leads MLB in blown saves.

I honestly don't think that Nedward has done much to negatively affect the team thus far. He's been flexible enough listen to the stat-heads about batting the pitcher eighth (although I'm not sure if he had much choice in the matter), and been flexible enough to tweak the Braun/Fielder and Hart/Hall configurations in the lineup. Ned clung to Turnbow in a few instances where it hurt us, but it's not as if there were incredible options elsewhere in the 'pen.

Then the question was raised: Even if Yost isn't to blame for .500, is he capable of doing anything positive at this point to turn the team around? And the more I thought about it, the more I lean towards no. It seems like there are only two areas where Yost could potentially make an impact, and he comes up short in both. 

The first would be the tactical department, an area where, as we saw last season, Ned proven to be severely lacking in the skills needed to manage a pennant race. The number of outcomes a manager has influence over might not be that high -- correct me if I'm wrong, but even The All-Knowing LaRussa admitted in Bissinger's book that his preparation may only come up huge in a handful of games each season -- but still, it's pretty unlikely that Ned is going to outsmart many other managers. The stubborn and scrappy parts of Ned's brain block out whatever genius might be hiding up there.

The second, and I think this might actually be more important, is the motivational department. I know, I know -- if Prince ends up with 45-plus homers this season, it won't be because he was inspired by a good pep talk. It'll be because he simply started acting like the hitter he was statistically projected to be in '08. But there is still something to be said for having a clubhouse atmosphere where the players want to win for their manager, and I've always had the suspicion that there's somewhat of a disconnect between Yost and the young core of the team.

The Brewers, if one goes strictly by everyday position players, are (I think) the blackest team in MLB. This, to me, is really cool thing -- in an era where we always hear how the U.S.' best African-American athletes are shunning baseball for basketball and football, Milwaukee trots out three young black talents in its infield (Prince, Rickie and Bill Hall) one veteran in its outfield (Mike Cameron), and has a possible future starter (Tony Gwynn Jr.) on its bench. And Prince, a soon-to-be 24-year-old phenom, is the jolly-when-they-need-it, serious-when-they-need-it leader of the clubhouse. The team feeds of Prince, and he knows this.

Yost, on the other hand, is a 52-year-old good ol' boy who loves NASCAR and hunting, and was a freakin' taxidermist at one point. And so when Nedward decides to bring in a celebrity guest to entertain his troops, he naturally chooses who? His old friend Larry The Cable Guy.

Yost brought in Larry earlier this season, and there was Fox Sports Net-Wisconsin footage of LTCG taking batting practice in a cutoff No. 1 jersey. A friend who's around the Brewers told me recently that this is not the first time Larry has been in the clubhouse. Larry The Cable Guy, if you're not familiar, is regarded as America's No. 1 redneck comic, and he is perhaps the worst form of man: not even a real redneck, but rather a redneck impersonator who makes boat-loads of money off of rednecks, by pandering to themes they love, such as racism, xenophobia and anti-intellectualism.

Here are a couple of pertinent lines from a Slate.com article on Larry from 2005:

[Redneck] comedy speaks to a broadly American condition: the feeling of being left out. Blue Collar was mounted as a rejoinder to The Original Kings of Comedy (2000), a film directed by Spike Lee that featured four black comedians.

Redneck comedy—the creation of a cretinous, backwoods alter ego—was once useful in maintaining the delicate social fabric of the South. According to James C. Cobb, a history professor at the University of Georgia, the redneck comedian provided a rallying point for bourgeois and lower-class whites alike. With his front-porch humor and politically outrageous bons mots, the redneck comedian created an illusion of white equality across classes. Thus united, Cobb explains, Southern whites could better band together against common "foes"—newly enfranchised blacks, Northern carpetbaggers, and so forth.

I'm aware that this is a completely anecdotal argument. But if you're a proud African-American like Prince, Rickie, Gwynn, Hall or Cameron; or a Jewish product of L.A. like Braun or Kapler; or a Mexican immigrant like Gallardo; or a Domincan like Villanueva, aren't you at least a tad insulted -- even if you won't ever say it to the press -- that Ned brings that kind of comedic crap around the team, gives it a jersey, and lets it take BP? It's as if Ned hasn't looked around and realized that he's not with John Rocker and the Braves anymore. The Brewers hardly have any real Southerners on their roster; only Ben Sheets and Corey Hart really qualify in that department. If you wanted to bring in a celebrity comedian that the team would actually like, you'd get Chris Rock.

Now, Larry the Cable Guy isn't the reason we started 16-16. Neither is Ned's lack of managerial skill. But we can't exactly just print out every player's PECOTA projections for '08, tape them up in their lockers, and say, "You're supposed to be doing THIS!" There's some intangible, emotional element to this as well. Someone will need to motivate them out of the funk, and motivate them through the All-Star break, and try to make a semi-improbable run at overtaking the Cubs. That someone will need to be a good baseball mind AND be able to connect with the kids, not insult them. Let's be proactive and acknowledge that that someone is not Ned.

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This was interesting

I’ll have to think about it some.

I’ve often wondered if maybe Ned had value as a manager that maybe I just wasn’t seeing. I have a hard time coming up with possible attributes, though.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on May 7, 2008 6:08 PM CDT   0 recs

attributes

I just feel like, at best, Yost is a good steward – he can keep order over a hot streak, like the one we had at the start of last season. When things go sour, though, he’s not capable of turning it around. He just exacerbates the slump. Kremblas would be a good dose of new energy into the dugout. Who knows: He might like Larry the Cable Guy, too. But he’d probably be conscious enough of the kids’ backgrounds + personalties not to bring Larry to the field.

by MooseHaas on May 7, 2008 6:23 PM CDT   0 recs

Right now

I don’t think the Brewers could get away with putting Kremblas in as the head coach.

He's the round mound of profound

by drezdn on May 7, 2008 7:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

How much does a manager really have to do with performance?

I guess I just don’t see what managers contribute beyond in-game decisions.

Steve
http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com

by stigmo on May 7, 2008 8:29 PM CDT   0 recs

Deadspin

we are well on the way to making their prediction come true:

http://deadspin.com/372431/your-nl-central-preview

Good time for Prince's fifth homer

by molitorfan on May 7, 2008 8:40 PM CDT   0 recs

Maybe we need more Cubans

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 7, 2008 8:48 PM CDT   0 recs

The worst part

is that redneck comedians aren’t funny. I stopped at the Blue Collar Comedy thing one time and felt like getting up and smacking the TV like Homer Simpson. “Darn stupid TV. Be more funny!”

by Marty McSuperFly on May 7, 2008 8:53 PM CDT   0 recs

This was a good article

There’s some good insight here. I’ve long thought that the players on the Brewers simply don’t like Yost, and you rarely see any of them saying anything nice about him. This article provides some more food for thought along those lines.

by Marty McSuperFly on May 7, 2008 8:54 PM CDT   0 recs

I'm as white as they come

and I’m deeply offended by Larry the Cable Guy.

by warwick5s on May 7, 2008 9:37 PM CDT   0 recs

But isn't the source of the offense different?

Larry the Cable Guy offends my sense of intelligence and sincerity.

To the intelligence aspect, this guy made his name penning songs like “Donny the Retard” and crafting his “madder than” line of humor (as in “I’m madder than a queer with tonsilitis on Valentine’s day”). This guy is a creep who is educated enough to know exactly what base he’s appealing to and it’s pathetic.

Furthermore, as MooseHaas hinted at, this guy is playing a “character.” His name isn’t Larry. It’s Daniel. He grew up in Nebraska and Florida and received a private school education. So, again, “Larry,” is deliberately creating a character that is a total creep in order to get the cheapest laughs available. If he was reflecting his culture honestly I would still find him repulsive, but at least I could respect his sincerity.

On the other hand, there is Rock. Rock is funny. Rock is controversial. Rock is a real person, not a creation by some calculating dickhead looking to cash in on ignorance, fear, and intolerance. You might not agree with what Rock has to say, but at least it’s sincere and intelligent.

by 400metres on May 8, 2008 10:07 AM CDT to parent up   1 recs

Couldn't you say the same about Larry the Cable Guy?

If you are tuning in or paid for the seat then I suspect you know what you are getting. I wouldn’t watch either of them, but if I did I sure wouldn’t get upset over anything they said. They are comics after all. Whether they are gutter comics or not, I don’t see either of them as detrimental to society. There just chasing the dollar like everyone else.

by Radar_3 on May 8, 2008 1:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No

and now you’re deliberately missing the point.

by Marty McSuperFly on May 8, 2008 1:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you say so

but I bet you can find just as many disgusted comments concerning each of their comedy routines right here on the world wide web.

by Radar_3 on May 8, 2008 2:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I hear what you're trying to say, but our point is

that it’s not the audience but the performer that matters. I don’t really give a shit about the fact that there are people who are offended by Rock too – that doesn’t change the fact that Rock is an intelligent, incisive comic whereas LCG is a bottom-feeding douche with nothing to say.

It’s funny, but this love affair with LCG by Yost makes me question his judgment even more than his decision to bean Pujols did. Seriously.

by 400metres on May 8, 2008 8:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

We'll have to agree to disagree

LCG plays to his audience. I’m not sure they’d be willing to pay much to listen to political humor & satire. He has created a niche for himself as stupid as it may be.

I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that the whole LCG thing is just an act. Regardless the Brewers need to win a game!

by Radar_3 on May 9, 2008 7:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"benefit of the doubt"

you’ve got that backwards. he’s not better for pretending to be a racist hick, he’s worse. benefiting from the ills of society is despicable, not a “niche.”

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on May 9, 2008 9:15 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Only one way he benefits

and that is when people put their butts in the seats. His “act” must be entertaining to some, shoot many I guess, with the coin he has made. I’m not going to put him down for trying to make a better life for himself & family. It won’t be my $ but others are free to spend theirs how they wish.

by Radar_3 on May 9, 2008 10:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But, going back to the point of this post

The predominately black, latino, and jewish Brewers baseball team did not pay any money to be exposed to this idiot or associated with his “act”. Only Ned wanted him to be there.

Futhermore, it’s one thing to pay to go and see a show, but bringing LGC to wear a Brewers jersey specially made for him and have him take batting practice creates an explicit association with the Team and therefore an implicit endorsement of all the garbage he spews on stage to his moronic fans.

That’s why I take this personally. I don’t give a rusty fuck if Ned or anyone else is a fan of LGC – but when the Brewers implicitly are, that’s a different story.

by 400metres on May 9, 2008 11:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

so...

you are saying that racism is ok as long as the market will support it?

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on May 9, 2008 11:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly or

what I’m trying to say is take him for what he is, an idiot with an act. I doubt it would be difficult to avoid any interaction with him. If the team was forced to listen to 5 minutes of his garbage that is another story.

I don’t think Weeks is hitting .190 & Villy has a 6+ ERA because LCG was taking BP. I’m willing to bet they could care less whether he was there or not.

by Radar_3 on May 9, 2008 1:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, thanks to youtube,

you know longer have to give “Larry” the benefit of the doubt as to whether it’s just an act:

http://www.tvjab.com/youtube-find-larry-the-cable-guy-before-he-was-larry/

You’ll see the race-baiting, gay-bashing, and other cheap stereotypes are there, but not a hint of “Larry.”

by 400metres on May 9, 2008 10:44 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I was thinking along similar lines today

Which player has steadily progressed under Ned’s management? Not had a good half a season like Turnbow or Capuano, but consistently gotten better? The bad parts of the young players games are still bad, and they haven’t significantly improved the good parts of the game. In most other sports, that is what a manager brings to the team as a positive, they make the players they have better.

by Getting Yosted on May 7, 2008 9:38 PM CDT   0 recs

Excluding this year's preliminary results

Prince Fielder and JJ Hardy have gotten significantly better.

Ben Sheets and Bill Hall have improved greatly, only to fall back (for different reasons).

Rickie Weeks’ walk total skyrocketed last year, though with perhaps concomitant drop in his batting average.

Now, would I ascribe any of these positive results to Ned Yost’s influence? I have no inside knowledge, but it doesn’t seem like Yost would have much affect on, for example, Prince Fielder maturing into a monster in his second full season. Except in situations of pitcher overuse/abuse, I don’t think the manager’s style has much to do with a player’s performance; nevertheless, all the players I listed have arguably gotten better under Yost.

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 7, 2008 10:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess I should have phrased it as they aren’t getting better at the weak parts of their game. Rickie is still a mess defensively and can’t stop popping out to second base, Fielder is still an adventure picking a ball out of the dirt, Hardy can’t hit anything that isn’t a fastball in, Hall still tries to pull everything out of the park, etc. The same thing that was an achilles heel for the players 4 years ago is still one, and you would think a competent manager could motivate the player to improve and develop a plan to help the player improve.

When you see a team as young as the Brewers plateau, it is on the people who are overseeing the fiasco. They replaced the hitting coach and whatever Davey Nelson did two years ago. Last year it was Nick Leyva’s turn on the chopping block and Robin Yount saw something to make him want to get out. There just aren’t that many more ‘reasons’.

by Getting Yosted on May 9, 2008 9:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That was the sign for me

The fact that Yount took considerable discussions to come in the first place and then left in the manner in which he did convinced me that something was seriously amiss with NEdley and his staff. We will never know what Robin saw but he does not strike me as a guy who commits to something and then walks away without considerable thought. Maybe wanting to be back home was an issue but we all know Robin was a competitor at heart and to leave that situation was probably difficult (again conjecture). I believe Nedley and his methods had a significant role in Yount’s departure. This isn’t a wish to revert back to the ‘80’s or even to have Yount manage the Brewers. It was however a symptom that Annastasio should have seen in black and white and should have led him to take action.

The Wallbangers won because they played the game like kids! Let's do that again!!!

by 80badger on May 9, 2008 12:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I come in peace as a Cub fan

I’ve been hearing rumblings out of Milwaukee that Ned Yost is in trouble. And that there may be a player mutiny on hand. Am I wrong to think Yost doesnt’ make it to the All Star break? Curious what Brewer fans think on the subject. I know Yost is as popular with fans in Milwaukee as Dusty was in Chicago, but is he really in danger?

Lou, stop being obstinate...bat Soriano # 6.

by MDBNIU on May 7, 2008 10:17 PM CDT   0 recs

Everyone on the mutant BCB thinks you're a troll

Be warned; your leash is short. Where are you getting these rumblings from?

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 7, 2008 10:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep, I'm a troll

Also not a sabermetrician robot, which rubs a lot of bloggers the wrong way. So if you are yet another in a long line of Comic Book Store Guy from the Simpsons clone then just say so and I will cease the discussion now.

Personally, it appears to me Ned Yost is in big trouble in Milwaukee despite his relationship with Doug Melvin. And yes I am picking up signals that Yost is facing a bit of a player mutiny ala what Scott Skiles faced with the Chicago Bulls. Yost has the personality of formica and is ridiculously stubborn in his ways if you ask me. Is he the whole problem? No. Doug Melvin grossly miscalculated on the bullpen. Eric Gas Can is a former steroid abuser, yet you shell out $10 million on the guy? He also severely overpaid for nomadic aging types in Soloman Torres, David Riske and Guillermo Mota (another roid boy). And why on earth does a team with payroll limitations shell out big money on Bill Hall (who had one career year) and Mike Cameron?!? Especially when you have players like Tony Gwynn Jr. and Gabe Gross on hand. Stupid. Especially when you shoudl be saving your eggs to meet the impending asking price of Ben Sheets.

Lou, stop being obstinate...bat Soriano # 6.

by MDBNIU on May 7, 2008 10:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

By the way...the Cubs have big problems of our own

Lest you think I come to bash the Brewers solely. I’d give my left nut to have the quartet of young talent you have in Corey Hart, Rickie Weeks, Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder.

Lou, stop being obstinate...bat Soriano # 6.

by MDBNIU on May 7, 2008 10:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

2012, baby!

Although I don’t know if the foursome will be intact at that point, we control Hart, Weeks, and Fielder until 2012 (and Braun after then). Hopefully, they’ll be a pain in your side for years to come.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on May 8, 2008 12:02 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I was thinking

Maybe in exchange for me helping you with your algebra homework, you could teach me how to get girls. What do you say?

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on May 7, 2008 11:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tough call

I wonder who would have the tougher job, there.

by Marty McSuperFly on May 8, 2008 6:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's hard to say

if Yost’s job is on the line or not. For reasons that escape me, Melvin’s loyalty toward Yost seem to run pretty deep, to the detriment to the team (in my opinion). So who can say?

Although you can make an argument against each of the players above, you can also defend each of the signings fairly easily. (Even Gagne, who is on pace for about 40 saves, though 20 blown saves.) Although not everyone here likes his moves, I think most around these parts would say that Doug Melvin has done a pretty good job. (My biggest complaint is that when he turns trash into treasure, he holds on too long. Turnbow and Podsednik are two prime examples.)

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on May 8, 2008 12:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And in addition, saying that everyone is overpaid

is just silly…nevermind Gagne, but whatever Riske et al. are getting is simply what the going rate for more or less reliable relief pitchers is these days. Sometimes it seems like fans think you can just run a trial season, throw 30 MLB-minimum relief pitchers out there, find out which half dozen of them doesn’t suck, and then play the real season – and voila, killer bullpen without “overpaying” for free agents.

by Zeyes on May 8, 2008 2:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

hey, that's what the giants are doing

wait, you mean it isn’t working?

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on May 8, 2008 2:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ironically

The bucks now have Scott Skiles. The bullpen, despite the monetary splurging, has I think been alright so far (with exception to Gagne). I always thought Bill Hall was a bit of a long shot for that much of a deal but with the exception of Gwynn Jr. Gabe Gross just isn’t that good and nobody could’ve seen Kapler getting very far. I think it’s just that the entire offense is anemic and the people who we kind of expect to do well just aren’t, well, doing well. It’s not a good sign when Jason Kendall has the highest average on the team. But I still think as the season progresses so will the team. Sticking with the too early to tell concept.

"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome

by zsxander567 on May 8, 2008 3:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

so...

where did you say you were picking up these rumblings from? is it your “instincts” clenching?

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on May 8, 2008 8:19 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This reminds me

Of when Geoff Baker of the Toronto Star tried to make a big deal of the Blue Jays having a lower proportion of minority players than the population of the city of Toronto in an effort to a) criticize J.P. Ricciardi and b) explain why attendance was sagging. Of course, guys like Carlos Delgado said Baker didn’t know what he was talking about and it was a non-issue in the clubhouse.

I find it doubtful that, should the Brewers go on a hot stretch, anyone will ascribe it to Yost and his ability to motivate/whatever, so to talk about him being unable to add to the team in a positive manner seems pointless. But hey, firing the manager in mid-season worked in 1982, so I’m sure it’ll work now since everyone knows that’s the one true way to the World Series. Is that season an exception to the rule or does changing managers in the middle of the season actually work out more often than not?

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on May 8, 2008 7:52 AM CDT   0 recs

I respectfully disagree that the Toronto example is relevant to this one.

I don’t think many clubhouses really give a f*ck about whether they correctly represent the demographics of their city. I do think players care a lot about what happens within their own clubhouse. I think there were minority players in MLB who didn’t have much interest in playing with John Rocker. The reference here in the Yost/LTCG thing is that the manager’s tastes might be directly insulting to the core of the team, which happens to be heavily African-American by MLB standards.

And even if they were to say it’s a non-issue, it at least shows evidence that Yost probably isn’t capable of “connecting” with his players beyond stubbornly sticking up for them in the press. My argument isn’t that the Brewers need to hire Dusty Baker because the team is black - that would be the worst idea ever - but it wouldn’t hurt to match a young team with a younger, more progressive manager. Ned is a good ol boy who’s wound up WAY too tight, and really isn’t going to help us get out of this mess. And even if everything is based on stats and we’re just waiting for our sluggers to regress to the mean, it would be nice if they did it for a manager they were excited about playing for. I mean, do you EVER hear Brewers go out of their way to praise Ned?

by MooseHaas on May 9, 2008 12:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It might be insulting

But then again, it might not. It’s all hypothetical. Couldn’t it also be insulting to insinuate that in order to be “proud,” you must take some offense to someone like Larry the Cable Guy?

Either way, since it is all hypothetical, there’s other possible reasons for a lack of motivation. Maybe Mike Maddux really likes South Park, leading Canadian Eric Gagne to feel like he doesn’t have any guidance. Maybe Bill Castro really likes Carlos Mencia. Maybe the team is listless because they don’t like their team leader’s anti-meat stance. Or perhaps Gabe Gross was the clubhouse mascot and his being traded has lowered spirits. The old-school, “play-the-right-way, blah-blah-blah” guys might be taking offense to Ryan Braun’s cocky attitude, causing a rift. It might be the front office: the team could be wondering why Melvin & Co. only go after free agents like David Riske when there aren’t ex-Rangers available. Maybe the team has heard rumors [insert Brewers-related person X] owns stock in a chicken noodle soup company and has been infecting children nationwide with the common cold in order to boost sales.

Yost’s hardly the only manager around the league to have a disconnect with his players. Two of the last three world champions have been led by guys who either throw their players under the bus or have had protracted feuds with guys on their team. John Gibbons can hardly be on any players’ nice guy list and, like jacob says below, Lou Piniella regularly throws his team under the bus. I can’t imagine many Yankees players are pleased that Joe Girardi decreed candy and ice cream are out of the home clubhouse. Everyone likes candy and ice cream! :) That’s not to say Yost should follow that sort of pattern, but it’s hardly unprecedented around the league.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on May 9, 2008 1:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yost

good article moose, it would make sense that yost and the young core, regardless of their race don’t get along like the best of buddies. but i’m not convinced the players don’t respect yost. he does a great job standing up for them and giving them one opportunity after another to turn it around or continue to fail. he sticks with guys longer than he needs to.

look at the opposite, lou pinella, he regularly throws his team under the bus, and benched his starting CF after just 4 games…

bringing in the redneck is a brain-dead, respect-eroding move, one worthy of discipline, but i think the firing line is respect and not pals.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on May 8, 2008 8:24 AM CDT   0 recs

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