Trade is offical: Durham a Brewer
For Steve Hammond and Darren Ford. I still think this is stupid.
No word yet on how much, if any, money is coming Milwaukee's way, or who's going down to Nashville.
[UPDATE] Rotoworld says Dillon got the ticket to AAA. No surprise there.
4 months ago
battlekow
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This
is stupid. And the Redskins just trumped us by trading for Jason Taylor.
by molitorfan on Jul 20, 2008 6:12 PM CDT 0 recs
I suppose Dillon goes to Nashville
maybe that’ll help him with regular at bats
by ol Pete on Jul 20, 2008 6:15 PM CDT 0 recs
That i'd assume..
And then Stetter when they activate Soup.
I just don’t really get the trade unless there’s something else brewing.
by SgtClueLs on
Jul 20, 2008 6:18 PM CDT
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I really like the deal
I don’t really see the point of a lot of the fuss you guys are having with the deal. If you look at it, we’re picking up Durham, a trusted veteran with some speed, contact, and some pop in his bat at age 36 in return for a soft-tossing starter who was 0-4 in AAA with a 7+ ERA and a speedy A-ball prospect who wasn’t batting above .260. I mean, Scott Podsednik ceiling? Sure.
Look at what the Brewers add to their bench. We can’t always acquire Sabathia, but I parallel this deal to the Red Sox in 2004 picking up Dave Roberts. Aging vet who’s seen it all, and a few clutch plays help the team in the long run. Let’s not write Durham off before he plays a game for us. I think it’s going to be pretty cool to have him, he’s a good player.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
by ryan braun on Jul 20, 2008 6:20 PM CDT 0 recs
Agreed
Since it’s been decided we’re going for it this year we need to have everyone on the bench contribute. Durham will play more this year than those other two guys would have in their careers for the crew, in my opinion.
by madwilbury on
Jul 20, 2008 6:24 PM CDT
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Here's the problem
- He sucks at defense at second
- I like his OBP skill, but it’s not guaranteed to hold up
- If we’re just getting a pinch hitter, why not call up Brad Nelson or sign Richie Sexson or something?
I don’t think it’s a terrible deal, were not giving up a whole lot. It depends on how Durham’s utilized, I guess.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
by jihad on
Jul 20, 2008 6:25 PM CDT
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also
Hammond is just a little bit better than Miller, Narron, Welch, etc, so I’m disappointed to see him get included.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
by jihad on
Jul 20, 2008 6:27 PM CDT
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He's at least the 3rd best pitcher for a last place AAA team
Because DiFelice and Dillard were called up before him. Soft-tossers can pan out, but that’s a higher risk than a harder throwing pitcher. Even if he pans out, I don’t see him being too successful, I think Durham is worth it. Besides, our pitching prospects suck.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
by ryan braun on
Jul 20, 2008 6:29 PM CDT
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He was in AAA for all of four games
His 7+ ERA is meaningless, essentially. He posted a 20/5 K/BB in 17 innings.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 6:30 PM CDT
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If he does pan out
Great, good for him. Ben Hendrickson put up monster numbers in AAA, too. I’m just saying not even prospect pans out to the top of their ceiling, and we are going for it this year. I see much more value in Durham for two months +, than a soft throwing Hammond in a year or two and a 2004 draft pick in Single A.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
by ryan braun on
Jul 20, 2008 6:33 PM CDT
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Defense aside...
Yeah, his defense does suck. But he can play multiple positions, and from what I remember about him from Moneyball, he’s dabbled in outfield. All it a very poor man’s Chone Figgins, I know that’s a pretty ridiculous comparison, but that’s what I think.
Utilized right, yes, he’s got a lot of speed and contact. Plus, I really love Russell Branyan’s defense, you know. He’s so talented.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
by ryan braun on
Jul 20, 2008 6:27 PM CDT
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Durham can only play 2B, he cannot play multiple positions and has played 2B/DH for 1818 out of 1819 career games. His defense doesn’t really suck though, he’s definitely a late inning defensive upgrade over Weeks.
I’m trying to be optimistic and noting that he’s an offensive improvement over Dillon, but his offense can’t really be relied upon either. He used to be a decent hitter but was atrocious last season with an OPS+ of only 65 (the same as Craig Counsell, who can play multiple positions and is a superior fielder).
Hopefully last year was somewhat of a fluke though, and he stays above league average from here on out. Hitting off the bench and in the Brewers lineup can only help. I don’t know either of the minor leaguers very well but I can’t imagine this largely frivolous deal would have taken place if they were seen as having a lot of upside.
"My thing is that you guys eat meat all day and you can't hit a ball. That's my thing." - P. Fielder
by SRB on
Jul 20, 2008 7:40 PM CDT
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I agree with you on all points, except
that he’s a late inning upgrade defensively from Weeks. From what I’ve read and heard, he has absolutely no range, I saw his range factor earlier and it was one of the worst in the league… I can’t find the data now.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
by jihad on
Jul 20, 2008 8:20 PM CDT
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Offensively, it's some nice LaRussa-proofing
Helps against the late inning LaRussa relief moves.
I am pro-Cameron
by Lake County on
Jul 20, 2008 7:16 PM CDT
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i have that card signed somewhere... yay!
go get em' seth!
by Jamie in LA on
Jul 20, 2008 9:38 PM CDT
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One thing that would make this more worthwhile
would be if Durham has agreed to turn down arbitration. Then we could offer him arb, he’d say no, we get picks. Someone in the other thread seemed confident he’d be a Type A FA, which would make it wonderful; even Type B might flip the deal in our favor.
That said, I think it’s unlikely that’s happened.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Jul 20, 2008 6:30 PM CDT 1 recs
Hopefully he has an under-the-table agreement to re-sign with the Giants for five years after the season
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 6:31 PM CDT
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if durham is above replacement level for the rest of ‘08 it’s a win for the brewers.
talent like hammond and ford can be signed off the street. i’m really surprised to hear anyone say we gave up too much. there is a pretty good chance that neither of these two minor leaguers ever contributes to a major league team.
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Jul 20, 2008 6:43 PM CDT 0 recs
I think you're undervaluing Hammond
Guys like Chris Narveson can be signed off the street. Hammond is better than Narveson.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 7:11 PM CDT
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Here's a question
what relief pitcher could we have gotten back for Hammond and Ford? My major issue with the deal is that I think we need an upgrade in the pen as well and now we have traded away players we could have used to get pen help.
by molitorfan on Jul 20, 2008 7:01 PM CDT 0 recs
Looking at STATS ZR...
...I’d say that Durham is definitely a bad defensive second baseman, but that Weeks is worse. (Weeks is the worst second baseman in my ZR projections.) I’ve got IDs mapped to the RZR data finally, and I’m going to try to get RZR projections set up soon.
But I really don’t see how this move makes the Brewers better unless he’s taking playing time from Weeks, and I mean a lot of playing time. If you’re just looking for a bat on the bench, the Brewers have a ton of those guys in the minors who can hit, don’t they?
by cwyers on Jul 20, 2008 7:33 PM CDT 0 recs
Well, as of now
Weeks’ RZR is .800 and he’s tied for the most OOZ plays (23) of any non-Utley 2B (Utley has 44!). Durham is .768 & 8.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 7:38 PM CDT
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Yeah, I don’t see Rickie’s problem being range and he really hasn’t been bad this year. Come to think of it, the curse of throws in the dirt doesn’t seem that common this year.
by ol Pete on
Jul 20, 2008 7:40 PM CDT
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Durham's down a bit in RZR from the past few seasons.
Sure, he’s 36, but I’m still not quite ready to write him off just based upon a half-season of ZR data.
Weeks is also having an outliers of a season, but the other direction.
by cwyers on
Jul 20, 2008 7:50 PM CDT
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I know
Just sayin’.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 7:57 PM CDT
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$$$ and playing time
Durham had a provision in his contract that paid him $200,000 if he was traded, and Brewers GM Doug Melvin said his club picked up that cost. But a Giants source said that team picked up about half of the $3 million remaining on Durham’s contract.linkManager Ned Yost said he hadn’t thought it out yet but would probably play Durham at second base “a couple of times” a week. That obviously would cost Rickie Weeks playing time but Weeks kept a stiff upper lip about the deal and said he still considered himself the team’s second baseman.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on Jul 20, 2008 7:34 PM CDT 0 recs
so, let's see...
half of $3MM is $1.5MM…add $200k, and we’ve got $1.7MM.
That sounds just a touch like paying $2 million for a tweak, right?
Right?
(Yes, Melvin made the “tweak” comment about the bullpen, but I don’t see how this move would have much more of an impact than, say, Taschner over Stetter.)
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Jul 20, 2008 8:03 PM CDT
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The bright side
I needed an excuse to update the prospect list anyway.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on Jul 20, 2008 7:59 PM CDT 0 recs
Why is everyone comparing him to Weeks?
The question should be, is he an improvement over Dillon (I assume that’s who will be sent down). Unfortunately, Joe has played little and hasn’t hit much, particularly as a PH. I think Ray will be an improvement in that area. I hope his availability will build a fire under Rickie, who was never worried about Craig taking over his job.
by richfry on Jul 20, 2008 8:23 PM CDT 0 recs
Marcels for the rest of the year
Durham: .259/.335/.412
Dillon: .262/.338/.399
Major upgrade!
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 8:25 PM CDT
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But
he’s a Left-handed hitter™
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
by jihad on
Jul 20, 2008 8:29 PM CDT
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I wonder what Dillon is projected to do against righties
If Durham or Dillon are the guys they’re sending up to pinch-hit later in games, I’ll take the guy who’s been able to hit righties this year (or ever).
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on
Jul 21, 2008 9:18 AM CDT
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Ruh-roh!
Durham wears number 5 and has for most of his career. I wonder if the Brewers let him take it. Probably, but usually they’d prefer to let the #5 sit vacant for a while.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
by jihad on Jul 20, 2008 8:29 PM CDT 0 recs
basic agreement done at all-star game weekend
At least it sounds that way in this article. Not announcing till after the game was Durham’s request.
by ol Pete on Jul 20, 2008 8:54 PM CDT 0 recs
I can respect that
Still would have been cool to pull a mid-game switch. Those chances don’t come by very often…
I am pro-Cameron
by Lake County on
Jul 20, 2008 9:16 PM CDT
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My God I hate Ned Yost.
Here’s his latest gem, uttered in defense of Rickie Weeks, which once again proves that he’s either a complete moron or he’s convinced that everyone else is stupid enough to buy what he’s selling.
“I wouldn’t say he has underachieved,” said Yost. “He has never been a .300 hitter (in the majors), so who says he is underachieving?’
“He’s working his way up. He’s getting better in all phases of his game. For me, he has never underachieved because he never achieved up here. How can you say he has underachieved?”
He’s competely right, of course, assuming that we were hoping for a .216 hitter when he was the 2nd overall pick in 2003. And it’s completely unreasonable to say that he’s underachieved offensively (though not defensively) since his nearly 100pts lower than it was in 2006, because you’re only underachieving if you were once a .300 hitter and aren’t hitting for that average now. What. An. Ass.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 20, 2008 9:13 PM CDT 0 recs
that should read "since his OPS is nearly 100pts lower"...
... I really could use an edit function…
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 9:14 PM CDT
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But he scores so many runs...
Sigh.
I am pro-Cameron
by Lake County on
Jul 20, 2008 9:19 PM CDT
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Weeks
Weeks has never been close to a .300 hitter. In 2006, his BABIP was about .355 which was flat out luck.
Weeks is what he is…a lower average type who can still get on base, is a great percentage basestealer, has occasional pop, and is an improving but still mediocre fielder.
He is still just 25 years old as well, so he still has some development left.
Is he underachieving this year? To a point, but he has also been a bit unlucky with his BABIP and his HR/FB rates, both of which should revert back to the mean. That being said, his average is only 60 points (not 100) point lower than 2006, and only 17 points lower than last year.
So is Yost wrong? A little, or at least from a certain point of view, but I don’t see any need to throw Weeks under the bus publicly. He has been with this group of players for quite a while and they still play hard for him, which isn’t always to be expected. I think part of this is that he refuses to throw his players to the wolves. He would rather be a little caustic with the press, which in my mind, is preferrable.
by badgermaniac on
Jul 20, 2008 9:38 PM CDT
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That's fine if the choices are restricted to
throwing Weeks under the bus publicly and arguing about the definition of “underachiever.” They’re not. How about a little honesty? Like saying Rickie’s still a big part of the club this year and into the future, but we’ve got to get more production out of the leadoff spot and if that means playing Durham a couple of times per week, then that’s what we’ll do until Rickie gets his OBP up.
But why would Yost do that when he routinely gets away with departing into his own rhetorical reality, or when desperate, simply writing off the questioner as not udnerstanding the game as well as he does?
And I said his OPS was nearly 100pts lower, not his batting average.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 10:00 PM CDT
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He said something like that last week...
..though probably not as caustic as you would like.
He said something like Weeks’ production hasn’t been where they want it, but he has contributed overall and has hit into some bad luck (both of which are true to varying degrees).
I think Yost understands that what he sees on the field and what the raw numbers say haven’t been exact matches, and when you look at him subjectively, he is peforming about as well as he always has.
If you normalize the two “luck” factors that I already mentioned, he is pretty close to where he was last year…not quite…but close.
by badgermaniac on
Jul 20, 2008 10:18 PM CDT
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I'm not looking for caustic.
I’m looking for an absence of nonsensical bullshit or silence.
Oh, and I’m looking for 2006 out of Rickie at the plate, not 2007.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 10:20 PM CDT
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when you are asked a question...
...you have to say something right? Kind of hard to say unless you have the context of the question? Maybe the reporter was trying to goad Ned into bashing Rickie?
by badgermaniac on
Jul 20, 2008 10:24 PM CDT
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Actually, you don't.
But if you choose to answer, the words you speak are your responsibility. Maybe the reporter was trying to elicit a thoughtful, realistic response. OR, maybe he was hoping for this kind of nonsense so he could make Ned look like an idiot in the paper the next day.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 10:27 PM CDT
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melvin
i heard him interviewed on dennis krause and the topic came up on how ned handles his players in the media and even melvin acknowledged that and i’m paraphrasing because i can’t remember it all, “a player could go out and have the worst game of his career and ned will say he did well”. and he said that’s ned, ned knows that’s not what really happened but he feels he needs to stand up for his players in the media and not bash them.
sort of anti-george karl in that sense. does it annoy me? yeah. but i understand why he does it.
"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue
by Michael M on
Jul 20, 2008 10:30 PM CDT
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I understand it too.
But when he resorts to this strategem to avoid being critical of his players, he deserves to be called on it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 10:32 PM CDT
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that's fair
but i’m sure his players appreciate it, if they care, i don’t know…i guess i just got used to it and decided it is what it is
"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue
by Michael M on
Jul 20, 2008 10:33 PM CDT
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but what does it gain?
Please explain why we should care? Why dooes anyone need to “call him on it?”
I always say the same thing about his reputation in the media. Who cares if he is gruff or an a-hole?
Just my personal opinion, but all I care about are the decisions that lead to the team winning or losing, and I don’t think that comments like this have anything to do with that.
by badgermaniac on
Jul 20, 2008 10:35 PM CDT
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why does anyone need to call him on it?
because he’s not as mature as us!
"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue
by Michael M on
Jul 20, 2008 10:35 PM CDT
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Then we disagree.
If he’s simply trying to find a way to end the exchange without criticizing, then you’re right. But if he actually believes what he’s saying, that’s a problem in my opinion because it’s divorced from reality. And if your manager doesn’t understand the impact or lack thereof his players are actually having at the plate then he can’t make rational (let alone good) decisions as a manager. Ned’s shown plenty, in my opinion, that suggests that with some players he actually believes what he’s selling.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 10:38 PM CDT
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i see what you're saying
i don’t personally believe he believes all the things he says (that sounds funny doesn’t it?)
i was about to write a longer response but everything i wrote sounded like i went in circles so i’m going to go with this
"If there is a more reactionary blog with idiotic commentary out there I'd be surprised." -On Bleed Cubbie Blue
by Michael M on
Jul 20, 2008 10:42 PM CDT
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When I read that
I knew what he was trying to say and yes, it is tiresome that he always defends players (although his remark about JJ providing “nothing” makes me wonder), but to say that Rickie has never achieved sounds terrible.
by ol Pete on
Jul 20, 2008 9:57 PM CDT
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well
He’s a FA after this year (I think), so…
1. Marginal trade.
2. ?
3. Draft pick!
(he’s at least a Type B even after his terrible ‘07, right?)
by rob deer's moustache will destroy us all on Jul 20, 2008 9:26 PM CDT 0 recs
Jenks wasn't after 2007...
... and he had 400+ ABs, 21HRs and an OPS+ of 101. So I wouldn’t hold my breath on Durham being a Type B.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on
Jul 20, 2008 9:32 PM CDT
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The problem is that to get compensation, you have to offer the FA arbitration, which they have to then decline
I doubt Durham would decline his, since you can only cut a player’s salary something like 20%, which means he’d be due to make $6M next year, way more than he’d get on the open market.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 9:39 PM CDT
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Overreaction
I think there is a general overreaction based in large part to people thinking that all “prospects” are truly prospects.
1. I will give Melvin the benefit of the doubt that neither of the guys traded project to be useful players. Fast guys that can’t hit or soft tossers can be found for nickels on the dollar.
2. In terms of projection, Durham doesn’t really add any wins to the team, but in an isolated case, he gives us that lefty bat so that we don’t have to send up Dillon or Counsell. I thought it was a mistake to trade Gross (warts and all) for this reason. Durham rectifies this to some degree.
(And I say this knowing that Durham is going to regress to the mean quite a bit if he plays enough.)
Bottome line for me is that a small useful part is worth a couple of non-prospects.
by badgermaniac on Jul 20, 2008 9:30 PM CDT 0 recs
What makes Durham a lefty bat?
In 2005-2007, he hit .276/.352/.504 vs LHP and only .266/.334/.419 vs RHP. Don’t be sanctimonious about knowing better than anyone else what exactly a prospect (or is that “prospect”?) is and then spit out stuff like that.
I like how for some reason calling Hammond a “soft-tosser” seems to seal the deal for everyone. Lots of Major Leaguers are soft-tossers. You know how hard Cole Hamels throws? 90. Look at Hammond’s stats this year: 105.7 IP, 101 H, 38 BB, 98 K. That’s not fantasy, that’s not fanboyism, that’s not overvaluing prospects—it’s a legit line from a back of the rotation lefty. Nobody is saying Hammond is going to set the world on fire, but six years of him for cheap is worth a hell of a lot more than having a Joe Dillon clone with less defensive versatility for 2.5 months when we already have the original.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 9:47 PM CDT
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We have a detractor!
Still not sitting well with you, eh?
I am pro-Cameron
by Lake County on
Jul 20, 2008 9:49 PM CDT
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Why would it?
Three hours later, Ray Durham is still pretty comparable to Joe Dillon, and Steve Hammond is still an undervalued possible innings eater.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 9:53 PM CDT
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Don’t be sanctimonious about knowing better than anyone else what exactly a prospect (or is that "prospect"?) is and then spit out stuff like that.
Who are you referencing here? :)
Did this person, in a way, inspire a “Worst thread ever?” comment?
Also, awesome use of sanctimonious.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
by jihad on
Jul 20, 2008 9:50 PM CDT
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Hey, I think Brad Nelson is awesome!
Fuck you! Brad Nelson sucks!
Fuck you! Brad Nelson r00lz!
Fuck you! Brad Nelson is teh sux0r!
wash (thoroughly), rinse, repeat, ad infinitum
Jesus Christ that board tries my patience sometimes.
BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"
by battlekow on
Jul 20, 2008 9:52 PM CDT
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what I don't get
is why everybody gets so worked up about some middle reliever in the Braves system.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Jul 20, 2008 9:54 PM CDT
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Prestigous, conscientious, contentious, non-pretentious usage of "sanctimonious"
I’m personally cool with the deal. Much more so than the Inman trade last year…
I am pro-Cameron
by Lake County on
Jul 20, 2008 9:52 PM CDT
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incidentally
Carlos Villanueva was a “soft-tosser.”
All the stuff people say about Hammond now was said about Villa in 2005 and 2006. It’s not a very good comparison, mostly because Villa was younger then than Hammond is now, and I don’t mean it to be, but to repeat myself (and bk), Hammond is more valuable than most people seem to acknowledge.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on
Jul 20, 2008 9:53 PM CDT
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