Mat Gamel and the Defensive Break-Even Point
Yost is gathering input from a number of different sources, including GM Doug Melvin and assistant GM Gord Ash, the club's scouting officials, coaches and young stats gurus, who Yost dubbed, "the whiz kids." He also has received input from Dave Lawson, who for years has provided deep statistical analyses for Melvin.
"I ask a lot of opinions," Yost said. "We talk to our stat people and our sabermetric people to try to put things together. They can say, 'If you hit this guy, then this guy, then this guy, you're score 15 more runs over the course of a year.' I try to take it all in and see what fits, what feels right."
This passage is from early last year, from a Brewers.com article discussing the benefits of batting Jason Kendall ninth. Why do I bring this up now? Well, I'm interested in how these stat gurus (or as our former affectionate nickname-caller dubbed them "whiz kids") analyze and what kind of input they have on decision making for the major league club.
I want to apply a hypothetical situation here. There are certain things we can directly quantify with stats, and then there are things that need to be left to the scouts and "baseball people". For example, I can reasonably predict how well Mat Gamel would perform as a major league hitter this year. I can also reasonably predict how well a Bill Hall and Mike Lamb platoon would perform offensively. Further advancing our knowledge of the situation, I can reasonably predict how this platoon would fare defensively, and thus overall. I could also project how well Bill Hall would fare in full-time duty.
There is one missing variable there. We can only really guess as to how well Gamel would perform defensively at third base. So if I were a Brewer employee-- one of the "whiz kids"-- and I was assigned a project to evaluate the possible third base solutions, I could present Doug Melvin with some information showing where the break-even point would be for Mat Gamel to be the everyday third basemen. If Melvin felt Gamel would do better than my break-even number, I would reccomend that Gamel be the everyday third basemen. If not, I would advise him to start Gamel at AAA and wait to see if his defense improves.
So how would I go about finding this break-even point? I'll walk through the process here. First I need to decide on the projections to use for each hitter.
BIll Hall
BCB: .262/.329/.454
CHONE: .248/.320/.439
ZiPS: .248/.315/.445
Mike Lamb
BCB: .260/.328/.399
CHONE:.259/.330/.396
ZiPS: .268/.330/.389
Mat Gamel
BCB: .274/.334/.442
CHONE: .262/.328/.414
ZiPS: .260/.314/.424
I'll start with Gamel. I'm going to choose his BCB community projection, mostly because neither system has any major-league data to go on, and Gamel played hurt in the second half of last year, which likely affected his minor league numbers and adjusted his projection downward.
For Hall's full-time projection, I'll just average out CHONE and ZiPS to make a line of .248/.315/.439, which seems pretty high, but we'll go with it.
The Hall/Lamb platoon is more difficult. The BCB projections could work, but they're not totally projected for platoon performance, and I also have to figure out the amount of plate appearances versus each hand of pitcher for both players. I would imagine Hall would not be pinch hit for every time a right-handed reliever came into the game. I'm going to assume about 65% of the at-bats go to Lamb in a platoon and 35% go to Hall. For their projection, I'll average their career splits versus opposite-handed pitchers with their BCB projections. That should account fairly well for facing some like-handed pitchers, and in the case of Hall, give him a boost from his BCB projection that is quite a bit lower than his career split vRHP.
Finally, I want to create a really rough estimate of wOBA to convert to batting runs above average. We'll use OBP*2+SLG/3. It's only decent, but I can't really estimate wOBA without a full line projection of home runs, doubles, walks, and the like. This will work for the purposes here.
So here are the three Slash wOBA estimations. Please take note that the league average Slash wOBA is .360, and the actual league average wOBA is .333, so these figures are higher than you're used to seeing, but the runs above average are the same.
Gamel: .370
Hall: .354
Lamb/Hall:
.358
.385
Offensively, over 620 plate appearances:
Gamel: 5.4 runs above average, 26.4 runs above replacement
Hall: -3.4 runs above average, 17.6 runs above replacement
Platoon: Lamb -.2 runs above average, Hall 4 runs above average, 24.8 runs above replacement
Now we'll add in defense. We''ll say -10 per a full season for Lamb and +5 for Hall, so -6.5 for Lamb and a +2 for Hall in their playing time.
[Note by jihad, 01/24/09 6:22 PM CST ] I am inserting little expansion on my defense explanation here-- it looks like I just made those numbers up. First I looked at the CHONE defense projections. Hall is projected at -1 at third, Lamb at -12. Hall has a career UZR/150 of +7 at third base and was a +6 shortstop. I feel pretty confident calling him +5. Mike Lamb is -3.6 UZR/150 in his career, is aging, and had a terrible year last year, and is trending downward. I'm calling him -10 for a full year.
So, finally, the totals:
Gamel: 26.4 RAR, X defense
Just Hall: 17.6 RAR, +5 defense, 22.6 runs above replacement
Lamb/Hall platoon: 23.8 RAR, -4.5 defense, 19.3 runs above replacement
So Gamel with 26.4-19.3= 7.1, which is your break-even point for the platoon. If Gamel is better than -7, he's a better option than the platoon.
I personally don't know if Hall can hit .248/.315/.439 while facing righthanders every day. If he can, he would appear to be the best option, but I'll let the readers be the judge of if he can rebound to a .320ish OBP and +5 defense. It's only three runs difference, which is definitely within the error range for this informal study. I would definitely say there's not too much benefit gained by platooning at third, though.
So Doug, if you think Gamel is a -15 defender, it wouldn't be a bad idea to at least have him start in AAA. If you think he's a -5 defender, give him the job.
[Note by jihad, 01/24/09 7:18 PM CST ] Editing again. In the comments section, Charlie Marlow asked what the break-even point would be for a Hall/Gamel platoon. I didn't consider this at first, because Gamel's splits are quite equal and platooning him would seem like a waste. But it's actually a fantastic idea. Gamel would be replacing Lamb, a below average hitter in the platoon role, with about +6 runs of production. Since we're assuming Lamb is a -10 defender in a full year and -6 in 68% of playing time, that gives Gamel a whole lot of room for sucky defense: -13 runs in 68% of playing time is the break-even point over the Hall/Lamb platoon, or around minus 16-17 runs per a full year. It doesn't seem logical at first, but Gamel provides enough of an upgrade over Hall's crappy offense vRHP or Lamb's crappy defense and offense vRHP that his margin for error goes up enough to make it feasible. The Hall/Gamel platoon also provides an opportunity to sub out Gamel late in games for defense.
So I am hereby changing my endorsement. Doug, if you think Gamel is better than a -16 defender for a full year, please call him up and platoon him with Bill E. Hall. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Make it happen! The full methodology is in the comments section, for those who are interested in that type of thing.
1 recs |
24 comments
Comments
Nice work, as per usual
Not only is it my birthday today (and thus I’m not doing anything particularly intensive), but I’m sick and I’m not sure I can wrap my brain around answering the following…so I put it to you, jihad!
What would the defensive +/- need to be in a platoon with Hall? Or would it be the same? My assumption was that the -6 was indicative of what it would take to get him to be better as the starting 3B than either Hall on his own or a Hall/Lamb platoon
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 24, 2009 3:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hey Thanks!
Jim Beam is still pounding with his little hammer in brain.
But the upside is my loving wife got me a fantastic present: A 9 Game Weekend Plan, with opening day as the extra ticket. She’s always a great gift-giver.
Opening day vs. Cubs plus two other Cubs games. That’s pretty great. Now I have to outdo her for her birthday.
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 25, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope just the 9+opening day
But two tickets to each. So I guess, technically it is 20…
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 25, 2009 8:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha!
“Jim Beam is still pounding with his little hammer in brain”
Me caveman too.
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 26, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I worded it poorly and made a bit of a mistake
It’s edited now, and there’s a little section on defense, too. This suggests the break-even point with just Hall would be -4, but that’s again with the usual disclaimers about Hall having to remember how to hit righties somewhat. I’d stick with the -7 number overall, for each of them, because I think just Hall v. Hall/Lamb are about equal.
Scored three times and detonated an indisputable in four visits to the batting box.
by Jordan M on Jan 24, 2009 6:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And about a Hall/Gamel platoon
This involves projecting Gamel vRHP, though his splits are pretty equal. I’ll give him a minor bump up to a slash wOBA of .375. We’ll go with 420/200 split of playing times, so Hall’s numbers are the same.
Hitting:
Hall vLHP: 4.3 runs above average
Gamel vRHP: 6 runs above average
Total offense: 31.3 runs above replacement
Fielding:
Hall .32 playing time 1.5 runs above average
Gamel .68 x defense
+32.8 runs above replacement offense, with Hall’s defense
minus 19.3=13.5. In 68% of the playing time, so like -16 overall. I think we may have stumbled upon something.
Scored three times and detonated an indisputable in four visits to the batting box.
by Jordan M on Jan 24, 2009 6:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The more I think about this, the more I like it
It didn’t make sense to me at first, but I’m getting it now.
We’re assuming Lamb is a pretty terrible fielder, and a below average hitter— not just vRHP, but overall, he’s below average even in a platoon role. Gamel gives a major upgrade in offense in the half of the platoon, and he’s trying to replace what we are assuming is 10 defense. So with the 7 run upgrade in offense he gives in the platoon role, he can allow 7 more runs than Lamb to break even- so around -17 in defense is the break even.
Then I’m trying to figure out why only Hall or only Gamel wouldn’t be this good. It doesn’t seem logical when you think about it, but Hall’s extreme splits make this work. He can’t hit righties but crushes lefties, and plays good defense. A normal reaction would be that because Gamel has a small platoon split, he should just play full-time, but the extra offense and defense from Hall adds quite a bit of production.
Awesome suggestion, Charlie Marlow. This is pretty intriguing. If anything, it increases my dislike for Mike Lamb and realization that he is a terrible person to platoon. We have 4 options now, and a Bill E. Lamb platoon is the worst one. A Counsell/Hall platoon probably projects quite a bit better than a Bill E. Lamb platoon.
Scored three times and detonated an indisputable in four visits to the batting box.
by Jordan M on Jan 24, 2009 7:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
damnit
minus 10 defense. So with the 7 run upgrade in offense he gives in the platoon role, he can allow 7 more runs than Lamb to break even, so around -17 in defense is the break even point.
Scored three times and detonated an indisputable in four visits to the batting box.
by Jordan M on Jan 24, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many guesses are involved in that conclusion?
by HRF on Jan 24, 2009 4:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I need to know if jihad is taking into account getting into a pickle allowing a runner to scorer.
by HRF on Jan 24, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Question:
What’s more valuable for a young player? Playing everyday in AAA or platooning in the L?
by HRF on Jan 24, 2009 8:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
As much as I would like to see Gamel as an everyday player and as unexcited as I am about a Hall/Lamb platoon, I still think he could benefit a lot more by playing every day, especially under the guidance of Don Money.
"my goodness"
by BrewHaHeather on Jan 24, 2009 9:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it even matters who his coach is.
I’m not going to argue the math (because I can’t) or the conclusion that platooning Gamel and Hall is the best option of the three that seem to be available and worth considering. It’s probably true. I’m generally all for putting the best possible lineup out on the field in 2009 or any other year, but I don’t want to see Gamel’s development slowed by losing at-bats to a topped-out, overpaid veteran like Hall. I don’t know if would actually slow his development or not, but my guess is that it would, and thus it seems like a bad idea for the club.
I have an unreasonable dislike of Bill Hall.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 25, 2009 7:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My thought on that
is that its probably beneficial to get relatively regular ABs at the major league level. Because of Hall’s utter inability to hit RHP, and due to the fact that RHP is more prevalent than is LHP, Gamel should be able to get a significant amount of time. I’d guess that he starts the season in AAA, but probably comes up before the beginning of June. That should give him some time to work a bit more on defense with Money (although I think we all know its not really going to help things) so the suits can feel good about themselves. I’m not quite seeing Ryan Braun reincarnate here, but I’m guessing with the situation the rotation is in, the Brewers are going to be in need of offense at the hot corner.
Its possible I’m totally wrong (it happens every now and again). Also, perhaps the 2-year deal with Fielder makes him more attractive as a trade and the hole in Gamel’s glove makes it possible for him to move to 1B. Of course that’s a lot of ‘ifs’, but isn’t any of this speculation?
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 25, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't mind
a Gamel/Hall platoon, especially considering he would get the majority of the at bats because he would face right handed pitchers.
by oconnobe on Jan 25, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I go back and forth a bit
With the minor league season being shorter, it’s probably the difference of 420 ABs in the majors vs. 500ish in the minors. However, I wonder how it would affect his ability to hit lefties. His splits are almost exactly equal in the minors.
Scored three times and detonated an indisputable in four visits to the batting box.
by Jordan M on Jan 25, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point.
If his defense is improved and/or Hall is struggling, he may gradually see more time against LH as the year goes on.
by oconnobe on Jan 25, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
but I don’t think Macha would pull Gamel when a lefty reliever comes into the game.
But, as noted, I’d guess that over time Hall would slowly become Craig Counsell 2 on the bench.
Obviously, that’s if Gamel’s glove doesn’t give more than his bat makes at the major league level.
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 25, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if the idea is to platoon him in a year when they’re not going to be competitive, why not just give him the job?
by HRF on Jan 25, 2009 5:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How does this work, exactly?
Does the team start the season behind the rest of the division by 10 games with a HRF expectations handicap? And does the HRFEH stack with the Cub fan unreasonable expectations only to be crushed come Septemer modifier so the Brewers are like 30 games out of first place on opening day?
by Getting Yosted on Jan 26, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you think I’m the only one thinking the Brewers haven’t regressed, well, I don’t know what to tell you.
They had a Pythagorean record of 86-76 last year and have only gotten worse. Forgive me for not counting on things like luck and hope.
by HRF on Jan 26, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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