Hoffman signs with Brewers

F*CK AND YES

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm ok with this

It means our bullpen is pretty much set. Now all DM has to worry about for the next four months is figuring out a way to trade Hardy for King Felix.

It is what it is.

by coolig on Oct 5, 2009 10:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

ha

Hernandez is going nowhere.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nevermind,

I thought he was in his last year of arbitration, turns out he has two years left. Too bad the Braves don’t need a shortstop.

It is what it is.

by coolig on Oct 5, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Hart, Hardy, Parra, Weeks, Gamel.. is that enough? Remember, Jack drafted all of those players.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Mariners are a large market team, and are close to contending in a weak AL West

They have a lot of expiring contracts, but could easily improve and keep payroll at around the $100-$115M level and field a very competetive team next season. They are also the best defensive team in all of baseball, so if they add another good SP via free agency, they’ll be set.

I just can’t see Jack selling off one of the best pitchers in MLB just because they finished 3rd this year in the AL West. They improved markedly vs. 2008, and largely thanks to Jack’s moves.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"thanks to Jack's moves."

Except trading for Bill Hall.

by Yar Nivek on Oct 5, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

With his 0-3 yesterday ...

Hall finished with a batting average of .200 for the M’s, just under his .201 mark for the Crew.

Good work, Bill.

by Rubie Q on Oct 5, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Ian Snell/Jack Wilson deal wasn't very helpful either

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But it could be next year

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Oct 5, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Possibly, but I wouldn't count on Snell for anything

And the response wasn’t about next year anyway.

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know, I like Snell

He’s sort of the Pirates(now M’s) version of Manny Parra.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was able to unload Yuniesky Betancourt

which, in and of itself, makes up for any of the moves that didn’t pan out.

He also was able to sell high on Washburn…juuuuuust before he regressed in a huge way. I think that’s shrewd.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

All I'm saying is I wouldn't be surprised.

It’s not a matter of where they finished last year. It’s a matter of whether or not they can lock him up long term. The M’s are going to try for an extension with him first. If that fails, we could very well see a trade.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't agree with that, personally

Sabathia netted LaPorta and Brantley and two throw in prospects. For 3.5 months of his service. I think if the Mariners trade him, they wait until the deadline in 2011, the year before he becomes a free agent. They’ll still net a huge haul for him.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

Doug has come out and said he’s going to be very aggressive in finding SP. The fact that Hoffman signed for so much makes me believe DM has a trade in mind. I would guess that whatever he was ‘so close’ to getting done at the deadline will be revisited and finalized, now that the time constraint has been removed.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember him saying that last year too. The big acquisition ended up being Braden Looper.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Oct 5, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Deadline talks with M's were for Washburn

Dougie’s said that.

Mark my words: Felix Hernandez in a Brewers uniform is a pipe dream, at best.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Dougie" didn't say who the 3 team deal was for.

I’ve heard it was for the King, but I’m not sure how much stock I put in that. Either way, Jack admitted that he at least listened to offers for Hernandez, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up being traded at some point. You’re probably right, though, I’m guessing they would wait til the deadline.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll do some searching in a bit

But I’m about 99.9% sure I read words out of his mouth that said they tried for Washburn.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They did try for Washburn

but there was a much, much bigger deal on the table for Hernandez that probably didn’t have a prayer of happening.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Oct 5, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I seem to recall some of that

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would LOVE to know the details of that deal

"my goodness"

by BrewHaHeather on Oct 5, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

This is a team that paid big for Adrian Beltre and pays Ichiro $18 million a year. They will move hell and high water to sign Hernandez, and they will go as long as they can to try and sign him.

I wonder if they wont be the kind of team that would pursue John Lackey this offseason.

I dont know so much about “Jack’s moves” apart from bringing in Wakamatsu as the manager and making a culture change in the locker room. His trades were quite unspectacular.

by backtocali on Oct 5, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I could see them going after Lackey as well

Although a rotation with

1. Felix Hernandez
2. Ian Snell
3. Ryan Rowland-Smith
4. Brandon Morrow
5. Luke French

Is not particularly bad. Put Rowland-Smith in the BP and sign Lackey, and that’s a pretty decent starting 5.

Like I said above, trading Washburn at the perfect time and being able to get rid of Betancourt, in my eyes, were very nice moves. Don’t forget the trade that netted them 7 players last off-season, including Gutierrez, that sent Putz away at the right time, brought back Heilman who in turn netted Cedeno and Garrett Olson.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why on earth would they stick Rowland-Smith

in the pen over French?

by levnclf on Oct 5, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

French then.

Or Morrow.

Or Snell.

Whatever.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he meant batting practice

;)

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AL West

Not really weak anymore

by oc on Oct 5, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eh

You have the Angels, and then everyone else. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but I beg to differ.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, okay. I guess...

Signing someone is now out of the questiong. Put on your trading shoes, DM, it’s time to bring a good starter in.

by cwolf20 on Oct 5, 2009 10:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think I'm ok with it.

It’s around the max I would pay him, wonder what his contract clauses are.

Now if only fixing the rotation was so easy.

by SgtClueLs on Oct 5, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

cool

And now on to the starting pitching

"my goodness"

by BrewHaHeather on Oct 5, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Welcome Back, Doug Davis!

Sigh.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 11:04 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Nah. There aren't any FA pitchers out there that are signable & acceptable. Any SP improvement has to come via trades.

by Mykenk on Oct 5, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

Doug Davis is signable… His contract has expired.

Doug Davis made a league leading 34 starts, with a 4.12 ERA — which makes him acceptable to Brewer brass.

I am not sure that Davis wouldn’t be an improvement over our 2009 rotation either.

That said, I’d probably take a melon-baller to my eye-sockets if our rotation for 2010 was Yo/Soup/Loop/Bush/Davis

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yo/Soup/Loop/Bush/Davis

no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no nooooooooooooooooo

Yo, Buchholz [or equiv], Bush, Davis, Parra / Narveson / Butler with Suppan as long reliever / spot start

that’d be ok

by warwick5s on Oct 5, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How are the Brewers going to end up with Buchholz?

I’m just curious how you see that going down?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I did say Buchholz or equivalent

but I dunno, something like JJ + Gamel could get probably a young front of the rotation kind of guy

if Gamel’s not going to get a shot at third they might as well flip him for pitching

by warwick5s on Oct 5, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My opinion

Is that Buchholz is not attainable with what the Brewers have.

You have to aim a little lower, as Hardy’s value isn’t nearly as high as it once was. Michael Bowden may even be a stretch.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, there are few upgrades out there

But who thought Looper was going to come in and pitch well this year? Not me.

Doug Davis is just the kind of signing The Mustache will make-a guy coming off a career year.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i still don't think loop came in and pitched well this year

by PagsBrewCrew on Oct 5, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's hope that The Mustache actually realizes this

Better late than never, I say. He can get out from under half of the Loopan for $1M.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that john axford looked pretty awesome...

Spring Training 2009 Pics!

by Jamie in LA on Oct 5, 2009 11:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I guess its cool that Hoffy seems to want to play for our team.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 11:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You're more depressing than Joey.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

thats a rec

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Oct 5, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So when will he get #600

April? May?

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 11:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

He will also probably pitch in his 1000th game

around the same time, which will be impressive as well.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's won't be worth $8 (he wasn't even this season)

But I guess they’re paying a premium to have a definite closer. You could try and go with cheaper internal options but as past seasons have shown that usually leads to confusion/inconsistency/disaster.

And at least I don’t feel the need to run for cover when Hoffman takes the mound, unlike some past investments…

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Oct 5, 2009 12:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Seth Rogen?

As a Brewer? What kind of movie is that?

by Yar Nivek on Oct 5, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's called 'Knocked Around.'

by Rubie Q on Oct 5, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 9 recs

rec’d

by Yar Nivek on Oct 5, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

'Superbad' would have worked as well.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs

That's better than mine.

by Rubie Q on Oct 5, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The better answer would have been...

To go off of the board with “Derrick and Eric”

A hilarious movies about a couple former fireballers, played by Seth Rogen and Owen Wilson, who find themselves playing for the Southern Maryland Blue Crabs after flaming out of the big leagues. They rediscover their “blaze” when new pitching coach (played by Snoop Dogg), teaches they boys how to pitch “high and loose” instead of “high and tight”

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs

I really think you made that up

and you need to be in development, as I would pay to see that

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

2010 Salaries:

Mariano Rivera – $15M
Francisco Cordero – $12M
Francisco Rodriguez – $11.5M
Brad Lidge – $11.5M
Joe Nathan – $11.25M
Brian FUentes – $9M

It is what it is.

by coolig on Oct 5, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those are all from Cot's

It is what it is.

by coolig on Oct 5, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And they're all way, way, way overpaid

None deserve to make half of what they are.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No one in baseball deserves what they actually make.

by Mykenk on Oct 5, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That makes no sense.

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure it does. Getting millions of dollars to play a game is utter nonsense.

by Mykenk on Oct 5, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now we're getting on to a much, much different debate.

by Rubie Q on Oct 5, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe the owners should get millions

Or make tickets free.

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly,

if people are willing to pay $40 to watch a baseball game, why charge $20?

It is what it is.

by coolig on Oct 5, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So is getting paid millions to act

Blame society, not the players.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It might be a game

but there is a business built around that game

It is what it is.

by coolig on Oct 5, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will say, however

That both Ben and Jerry deserve to make whatever it is they’re making. If not just for Triple Caramel Chunk, then for One Sweet Whirled and Phish Food.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How random

And yet, I agree with you whole-heartedly

Having troubles with wrapping my mind around Kirbir listening to T.I.
-Dikembe Meiztombo

by kirbir on Oct 5, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i disagree with the flavors of choice

but agree with the sentiment.

by PagsBrewCrew on Oct 6, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm confused

what’s your argument?

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No argument, just making a point.

by Mykenk on Oct 5, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the problem

it may be ridiculous, but 35,000 fans don’t come to my cube and watch me sell every day. No one is out to buy a Hyatt Shirzey. These players perform athletic feats that people pay to watch, sponsors line up to put their name next to, and people write about every day. So yes, they are playing a game, but they do earn their money (except Kendall and Suppan).

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd buy a Shirzey.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thanks

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Prince Fielder is nothing but a device for your avatar

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is his main purpose in life

beyond being awesome of course.

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't buy now, wait until December when they're clearancing out the 2009 models

That’s when Shirzey’s are super cheap. If you can live with having ‘last year’s model’.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thats the sole purpose for my trip up to MKE in Dec.

Frankly, my Sheets, Weeks, and CC Shirzeys aren’t cutting it any more. The Fielder one is still relevant, but I need to re-up

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Get a personalized one...

then it’ll never be “outdated”.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Already done

thanks for the B-day present wife.

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And what number is Hyatt?

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

11

I’m actually Mike Rivera in disguise

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I use my Turnbow Shirzey to clean my hubcaps.

by Brew Angel on Oct 5, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does it only make the hubcaps more dirty and then demand to be used to clean the windows instead?

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Oct 5, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd buy a Snuggie.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Oct 5, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you went to a single baseball game, or purchased mlb.tv

or bought a shirt/jersey… you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know you're being facetious

The point is, you can basically get the same value out of a pitcher making $1M.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Being that the save stat is an utter joke

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What pitchers that are eligible for free agency...

can pitch as well as these guys making $1M?

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never said anything about free agency

Did you want to change the topic of the conversation?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, I should've been more detailed in my response...

My point is that yes, you could probably find a pitcher who could pitch as well as these guys in a save situation making $1M, but once they’re eligbile for free agency, they’ll command a much higher salary.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, that's the nature of the beast in baseball

My point is that closers are overpaid all the time, and the save stat is a joke. Fangraphs has a nice post up about Hoffman, and point out that he hasn’t been worth $8M for years.

If you look at the top 10 relievers in terms of value this year, six of them are closers. Of those 6:

• John Broxton: $1.825M salary vs. $12.9M value
• Brian Wilson: $0.48M salary vs. $11.0M value
• Andrew Bailey: $0.40M salary vs. $10.6M value
• Rafael Soriano: $6.1M salary vs. $9.4M value
• Heath Bell: $1.255M salary vs. $9.0M value
• Mariano Rivera: $15M salary vs. $8.9M value

So, my point really is that teams would do well to find internal options to close games, and save the money for other parts of their roster construction. Matt Thornton was 2nd after Broxton, Mike Wuertz was 4th after Wilson, Phil Hughes was 6th after Bailey, and C.J. Wilson was 8th after Soriano, to round out the top 10 most valuable relievers. Those guys aren’t even closers.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the Yanks can justifying overpaying Rivera

I am sure he sells some merch.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Oct 5, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah

They can justify overpaying anyone.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As does Hoffman

what jerseys do you see at MP?

1. Braun
2. Fielder
3. Hardy
4. Hoffman

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just wonder if everyone who wears a Hoffman Brewers jersey feels like a poser

Similar to anyone who wears a Favre Vikings jersey.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

doubt it

Favre plays for the Vikes, thus his jersey is fine. Same with Hoffman. I doubt anyone wearing a Manny Dodgers Jersey feels any shame

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't feel like Manny is a particularly good comparison

Favre would have been better had it been last season. That way, the comparison could be that they had both played their entire careers, broken and set records, with one team and then moved on.

I can’t wait to see him break 600 saves next season, and how ridiculously everyone celebrates. Nevermind that 550 of them weren’t recorded in a Brewers uniform.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Living in LA...

I think it’s safe to say that most people cheering hard for Manny have no shame whatsoever.

by Brew Angel on Oct 5, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not familiar with Fangraphs' "value", but...

as you alluded with your “beast” comment, players’ salaries are determined by what teams are willing to pay… not solely on their performance.

The problem with going with internal options is that you don’t know how they’re going to perform.

If they do well, eventually they’ll be able to get more money in free agency, which means that the team is stuck finding another young pitcher to finish games.

If they don’t do well… that means the team will lose games in the 9th inning.

Teams are willing to pay a premium for a proven closer to take this unknown out of the equation.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Teams lose games in innings 1-8 all the time

And as Matt Thornton will tell you, you can be a very, very useful reliever, better than every other reliever in all of baseball except John Broxton…and not be a closer.

And to the point that you ’don’t know what you’re going to get’…I’d say that if an organization can’t identify which pitchers can be shut down pitchers by the time they get to the big leagues, that organization is either the Milwaukee Brewers, or needs to reassess itself. I’ll bet Todd Coffey’s value would have been near Hoffman’s at the end of the year if he had pitched in higher leverage situations.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Identifying the shutdown pitchers is half the equation...

having them in the organization is the other half.

Also, if your statement is true about identifying shutdown pitchers, then why are so many teams “overpaying” for closers in baseball… particularly those heading to the playoffs?

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the same reason teams over pay for the wins stat for SP?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think MLB should've learned their lesson after

the Storm Davis-Royals debacle

"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."

by Hyatt on Oct 5, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about Carlos Silva/Jeff Suppan?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you on principal

but if the Brewers went internal (Coffey), they would have had to replace the setup man with somebody who has less value than Coffey (Difelice, Villanueva, Riske, McClung) Then they’d have to replace that player with somebody who has less value than him (Long Relief). And so on. Basically, the entire bullpen gets negatively effected. Having a shutdown closer really tightens up every aspect of the bullpen.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not disagreeing with having an outstanding pitcher pitch the 9th inning

I just think that any of the ‘big name closers’ out there are benefiting from a ridiculous stat.

Brian Fuentes has 48 saves this season. I don’t think anyone would rather have him at the back end of this bullpen. Also, anyone who pays any attention to baseball knew that last season was an utter fluke for Brad Lidge. But at the same time he proves the point: you can get the job done no matter who you are, really. I mean…if you’ve got a really high leverage situation in the 7th inning and you’re up by 1 run, shouldn’t you put your best pitcher in THEN, and not ‘save him’ for a ‘save situation’? If there’s a reliever pitching at that point, he’s going to get credited with a BS, and if he goes and finishes out the game, he’ll still get the SV.

I just think the whole idea is ridiculously over-rated. A team’s best reliever should pitch the highest leverage situation of every game, not always a specific inning.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Book illustrates that point very well

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that closers are benefiting...

simply from having alot of saves. Ignoring saves, many of the big name closers have very good stats… ERA, WHIP, BAA, etc.

Fuentes benefited from having a good season while with the Rockies. Despite having more saves this season, he actually pitched worse than last season.

I agree that teams would like to have their best reliever pitching in the highest leverage situation of every game, but you won’t know when that is until after the game is over. The problem is that this could happen anytime during the game… and multiple times. Unless the team is stocked with multiple shutdown relievers, they need to pick when to use them.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

But isn’t it clear that in a 1 run game, if the bases are loaded with no outs, that’s the highest leverage situation to that point in the game?

The A’s, Braves, and Dodgers all managed to have very good bullpens this season. The A’s and Braves both used multiple options at closer this season, and they had the best and second best team FIP in MLB this year.. I just think its silly to pay millions to a closer. If you have solid SP and good middle relief, you shouldn’t have to worry too much about the end of the game. And, like I said all off-season last year: who cares who’s sitting at the end of the bullpen if the SP can’t get him the ball with the lead?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes...

in that situation that would be the highest leverage situation up to that point in the game. Granted, it could the 5th inning… and no one knows for sure if that won’t happen again later in the game.

Plus, that’s taking an extreme example. What about a one run game with a man on third with no outs? I’d say that’s equally as important… particularly if it’s the 9th inning. At least if it happens earlier in the game, the team has opportunities to score more runs.

Unless you have a bullpen full of good relievers (like those you mentioned – which isn’t the norm), you’d end up having to use a less than optimal pitcher at the end of a close game with runners on.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the Brewers DID have a bullpen full of good relievers this year

Their clutch rating wasn’t great, but they had a relatively low average leverage index anyway, due to the fact that the Starting pitching basically took them out of the game early. Also, the fact that they were used early and often is sort if immeasurable in all of this (although the Brewers ‘pen DID have the 5th most IP in all of MLB this season, if that tells you anything). If you look at Coffey’s numbers at fangraphs, he actually performed better in higher leverage situations than did Hoffman(clutch), but had a significantly lower overall average leverage index. Of course its extrapolation, but that tells me he could have performed better than Hoffman if he was given the chance.

This is starting to sort of get away from my point, though. Perhaps I should add the caveat that “for small market teams” its particularly ridiculous to spend a lot of money on a closer?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought that The Mustache would give him $8.5M this season

So, its a savings over what I thought. But that’s more a testament to what I think about Doug Melvin than what I think a closer should get paid.

The biggest problem this team faces is SP. The only thing Dougie can do now is buyout Looper. That would give him $5.5M more in payroll than I had anticipated, and leave things at $69.5M. That $10.5-$15.5M would be nice for an SPthis season.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Only if you're assuming

that he’s limiting his search to FA pitchers (not looking for trades).

Granted, that’s not a bad assumption… and probably very realistic.

by sjlee on Oct 5, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think they're mutually exclusive

You can spend those dollars anywhere…FA or adding salary in trade, etc. That still doesn’t stop me from thinking that The Mustache is going to pick up Looper’s option. I hope he doesn’t, but I think he will.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

principle*

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

$8?

i think he was worth at least one full priced ticket, don’t you?:P

by PagsBrewCrew on Oct 5, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is Fall Madness

Half price closers!

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Madness

Having troubles with wrapping my mind around Kirbir listening to T.I.

by Dikembe Meiztombo on Oct 5, 2009 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Madness?

This is baseball!

I think it's the grunt that does it for me...

by kirbir on Oct 5, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

THIS IS BASEBALL!!!

Having troubles with wrapping my mind around Kirbir listening to T.I.

by Dikembe Meiztombo on Oct 5, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Beer Prices

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah...i was looking for that

forgot the names involved though;)

by PagsBrewCrew on Oct 6, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm glad he's back.

by Zorakathura on Oct 5, 2009 1:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Fair Market Price

I’m pleased and a little surprised. He probably could’ve gotten at least another $1 MM in arbitration, right? He’s certainly amongst the elite closers based on his stats.

Very, very cool for all parties involved to have a contract worked out so quickly. I wonder how long negotiations have been ongoing. 2 weeks? September? End of August?

It also shows some faith in the 2010 squad. Even if he liked the management and the city, he wouldn’t sign a contract with a team he thinks will only win 75 games next year.

by ecocd on Oct 5, 2009 4:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

he wouldn’t sign a contract with a team he thinks will only win 75 games next year.

He stuck with the Padres for a long time, so I don’t think that point is valid.

That's all I've got for you today, unless you're interested in some Chris Capuano/Tom Haudricourt Fan Fiction.

by KLSnow on Oct 5, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The president exercises veto power

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Oct 5, 2009 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He had roots in San Diego

Milwaukee, not so much.

You know me Al.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Oct 5, 2009 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

	W	L	PCT	GB	STRK
St. Louis Viva El Birdos	91	71	.561	0	Lost 6
Chicago Bleed Cubbie Blue	83	78	.515	7.5	Lost 1
Milwaukee Brew Crew Ball	80	82	.493	11	Won 3
Cincinnati Red Reporter	78	84	.481	13	Won 2
Houston The Crawfish Boxes	74	88	.456	17	Lost 3
Pittsburgh Bucs Dugout	62	99	.385	28.5	Lost 2

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