T-Haud's MVP Ballot: Where in the World is Chase Utley?

In all its glory:

1. Albert Pujols, Stl
2. Prince Fielder, Mil
3. Ryan Howard, Phil
4. Troy Tulowitzki, Col
5. Hanley Ramirez, Fla
6. Andre Ethier, LAD
7. Pablo Sandoval, SF
8. Matt Kemp, LAD
9. Derrek Lee, Chi
10. Ryan Braun, Mil

Others receiving votes (apparently): Chase Utley, Todd Helton. Yep, they're about equally valuable.

3 months ago Rubie Q 47 comments 0 recs |

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And is that our very own Supertramp ...

tussling with Tom in the comments? If so, you’re a more courageous person than I. I waded into the morass that is the JS comments once, and, almost immediately, realized my error.

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 11:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I always feel like I need a shower after hanging around there.

by Mykenk on Nov 24, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I should have avoided that

Think I was just still salty at how ridiculous his picks were last year and leaving Utley off drove me to the comments section. His response was nice though.

In the end it really doesn’t accomplish anything, and I do indeed need a shower now.

by Supertramp on Nov 24, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought the guy calling you "broseph"

was a nice touch.

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I applaud you, coming from a person who’s account was mysteriously deleted on JSO after getting questions into the mailbag to give “mad props,” to ~~my hommie~~ Mr. Witrado.

PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 Minutes for Deking a Duper Deke that made a Duper Duck.

by Lavender on Nov 24, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I couldn't resist

I can’t stand how pompous Tom is when he posts comments.

So, I posted a nice little mash-up of Tom and Supertramp quotes.

I hate that frigging blog. Its such trash. Tom’s a pile of shit, too.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 24, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Where is it,

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 9:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t seem to find it …

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 9:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

I have no idea. They must be modding posts or something. It was this lengthy awesomeness. Ah well, whatever.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 25, 2009 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not that I know of...

Check your drafts in the fanpost editor. No one would have hidden it without telling you.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 25, 2009 7:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not here

on the JSOnline blog.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 25, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, you should have posted is a fanpost

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 25, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I should have cut/pasted it into a post here.

It was worth it. Maybe the thing was just too long. I also tried to post a really sarcastic “let’s play ‘one of these things does not belong here’ game with the stats of Jeff Suppan, Braden Looper, and Carl Pavano!” post on the Brewers interested in Pavano post over there. It was long, and condescending (shocking, I know), and it never showed up either.

Tom’s definitely given me a sarcastic, snarky, defensive response before. More than once. So I guess I could care less if he knows how I feel, generally. Usually I post sarcastic, snarky things @haudricourt on my twitter account. He never replies, but you know he looks them up.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 25, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh wait, the Pavano one DID post.

They must have modded my other one off, or something.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 25, 2009 7:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha. Here's the Pavano one:

""Look at his FIP, the split indicates very poor luck, and a bad defense behind him."

Or that he was just getting hit HARD and often."

Whoops, forgot I have to spell everything out for folks here.

Look at the grossly high BABIP (.335).
Look at the low strand rate (66.7%).
Look at the HUGE gap between his FIP and his ERA (4.00 vs. 5.10).

What’s that spell, kids? R E G R E S S I O N!! Whoo hoo! Now that you’ve had stats 101, let’s look a Jeff Suppan and Braden Looper’s comparable stats. Then, you can use your new-found stats knowledge to come up with the right answer! And you’ll feel all growds up! Ready? Here we go!

Jeff Suppan:

BABIP: .318
LOB%: 71.6%
FIP/ERA: 5.70/5.29

Braden Looper:

BABIP: .294
LOB%: 71.6%
FIP/ERA: 5.74/5.22

Can YOU spot which of these things is not like the other things?

No replies to it. Ah well.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 25, 2009 7:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Obligatory "awards that are voted on are meaningless and unnecessary" post.

by Mykenk on Nov 24, 2009 11:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

No doubt.

But, with no Mug until the afternoon, what else do we have to talk about?

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

John Halama?

by Mykenk on Nov 24, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Riiiiiiiight ...

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Where is Chipper Jones?

Says the man who’s been in a coma since 2001.

PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 Minutes for Deking a Duper Deke that made a Duper Duck.

by Lavender on Nov 24, 2009 12:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Wait. FOURTEEN voters left Utley off their ballot??

by Mykenk on Nov 24, 2009 1:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Do you have a link for the results?

I can’t seem to find one.

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

http://bbwaa.com/

Jeremey Affeldt got a vote. Nice.

by Supertramp on Nov 24, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And Yunel Escobar snagged a single fifth-place vote.

Good for him.

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Escobar playing for two teams at short simultaneously

has to count for something, right?

by PagsBrewCrew on Nov 24, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tom's back to square 1

At the beginning of his post, TH admits that he’s posting his vote so that people can disagree with it and pick it apart.

I know how much fun some of you folks have picking apart MVP ballots, so I thought I would post the 2009 NL MVP ballot I submitted for the BBWAA award which will be announced later today:

But when somebody does question it, he insults them and tells them that they have no life. Very mature, Tom. So that means that he posted this article with the sole intention of insulting those who disagreed with him.

I was just starting to like TH a lot more (I think Witrado is living proof that everything really is relative) but now he’s back to the old self-righteous prick he’s always been.

I wonder if he hung out with Cappy last night.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 24, 2009 1:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well, Cappy DID sign that new minor league contract yesterday ...

Perhaps a bit of celebration was in order …

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But I agree with your point on Haudricourt.

I thought he said he wasn’t going to respond to comments anymore, precisely for this reason (i.e., he reacts like the commenter ran over his dog whenever somebody disagrees with him).

by Rubie Q on Nov 24, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Tom H's point is...

For the #1 MVP vote, it’s the best player on a team that made the playoffs. For any other vote, he can vote for the best player regardless of if they made the playoffs or not.

I think that’s a lame policy – vote for the best f*cking player. The one that brings in the most revenue. The one who is most exciting to watch. The one with the highest WAR. The best performance per dollar. Whatever. No sense limiting the field to only 4 teams per league.

by PagsBrewCrew on Nov 24, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's sort of like when a hot actress, say Megan Fox....

… goes to a convention peopled entirely with nerds, flirts with the audience, and when one of the nerds stands up and says she’s hot, she completely destroys him for being a dumbass.

Except you don’t get to stare at Megan Fox when Tom H. acts like an asshole.

Anyway, Tom H.‘s curmudgeonly attitude is probably his best asset as a beat writer. It certainly isn’t his “inside information” or his writing. At least his incessant irritation and negativity can be funny, particularly on his twitter account.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Nov 24, 2009 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha!

I’m really slightly below middle-of-the-road as far as analogies are concerned, so I appreciate it when someone can so deftly sum up a situation. Good work.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 24, 2009 8:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Tom’s inside information is pretty good. I feel as if his phone calls are usually answered before McCalvy.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 25, 2009 2:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm going to get some heat for this

but Chase wouldn’t make it on my ballot either. I’ve always thought of him as overrated, and number 10 on Had’s ballot is Ryan Braun. If it’s a choice between Braun and Utley of who’s more valuable to their team, for me the choice is easily Braun. Out of the nine others, I’d probably only put Chase as more valuable than Ethier.

by Donald Driver on Nov 24, 2009 5:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't agree with that thinking.

The voting isn’t for who’s most valuable to his team. I mean a league average player could potentially be surrounded by terrible players and still have more marginal return to his team than an all star caliber player who has a complete team around him. You can’t penalize a player simply because he plays with other great players.

Even if you went by that thinking, Howard couldn’t even be considered more valuable to his team than some of the other players on that list, especially Utley.

Even with that said Utley is quite frankly just a more valuable player. His offense is almost as good and he plays premium defense at a premium position.

Just two questions, why do you feel Utley is overrated? And even if he is overrated, do you feel that that automatically means he can’t be considered an MVP caliber player?

by levnclf on Nov 24, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I should've said more valuable to A team

that’s what I meant. In response to the second question, absolutely not. In response to the first question, I think he’s overrated for several reasons: A. He plays for the Phillies, where almost every player is overrated. B. He gets MVP talk every year despite not being one of the top 10 players defensively or offensively. C. Supposedly he is the best defensive 2nd basemen in baseball; this is simply not true, I think-his range is limited, and he doesn’t have that good of an arm either. Case in point about him being overrated, there is an entire fanpost dedicated to him not being on one reporters ballot on a fansite about the Brewers. I looked it up, and he doesn’t have better offensive stats than any of the players besides Ethier and you already know how I feel about his defense. Even if you think he’s a great defender, anyone would have to admit he’s not on par with a few of those players defensively. I think that this fanpost should be dedicated to why our homer can’t put Prince first on his ballot, I’m sure that one would be more interesting.

by Donald Driver on Nov 24, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's very difficult to engage in conversation on the issues you raised ...

when you’re already on record that statistics on defense are nothing but bullshit. I mean, I can tell you that he had the highest UZR for second basemen in the National League this year, and that he was tied with Freddy Sanchez for the highest UZR/150 for an NL second baseman, but you’ll dismiss it.

As for offensive stats, I’m not sure which ones you’re looking at, since Utley had a higher OBP than everybody on that list but Pujols, Fielder, and Ramirez, since he had more homers than Ethier, Kemp, Sandoval, and Ramirez, since he had more stolen bases than anybody but Kemp and Ramirez (without a caught stealing, to boot) … I could keep going, but, again, what’s the point?

by Rubie Q on Nov 25, 2009 7:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get how both of you read my post and thought that I said he was less valuable than Ethier

When I said the EXACT opposite. If you take a look: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/bycategory?cat=Batting&conference=NL&sort=22 and balance the offensive output of most those guys they appear (besides Ethier) to all be better offensively than Utley. Apparently the Phillies are in the market for a more productive backup to plug in at second base because Chase can’t handle a full season. I am just not on this guys bandwagon. Note to Jordan: That line for Howard is not better but he’s got a shitload more Home Runs and RBIs which more than offsets it, I think.

by Donald Driver on Nov 25, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No it doesn't

Do you really not understand that if Utley were batting with a .380 OBP in front of him, he would have had just as many RBIs as Howard? All that matters is how many runs he produced with his bat. It doesn’t matter if it was singles or home runs if you are valuing them fairly, which wOBA and wRAA does. Utley was a more productive hitter than Howard this year, and that’s not really up for debate. You could make the clutch argument but context-neutral Utley was better, and he was 6th in the NL.

I think this is a case of not understanding how much value defense carries. The relatively equal hitting production is totally crushed by the fact that Utley is about 20 or 30 runs more valuable on defense every year. Some of that just comes from playing second base.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 25, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Longer version

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/11/25/1173876/nl-mvp-retrospective-or-why-chase

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 25, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's like you just think he's not a good hitter keep saying it regardless of facts.

It takes me literally 30 seconds to go to fangraphs and find that Utley was the 6th most productive hitter in the NL this year. By playing second base he is already more valuable, and in my opinion (and the opinion of a lot of stats and scouts) he’s the best 2B in the majors.

And how possibly is a line of .279/.360/.571 at first base better than .282/.384/.508 at second base? Without even looking at how good their defense is, I would already have chosen Utley. And Utley is a good defender, and Howard is pretty bad.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 25, 2009 7:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha this is great, from a JS commenter

“I don’t consider MVP to be ‘the most outstanding player’ award and therefore don’t just go by who had the best stats.”— Tom Haudricourt, 11/24/2008 on why he put Albert Pujols (by far the best hitter in the league) 7th on his ballot.

“The Brewers were not in the playoff hunt but Fielder’s season was so dominant, I voted him second ahead of some players whose teams were in the race.: — Tom Haudricourt 11/24/09

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 24, 2009 7:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs