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Just for Fun: Comparing Gomez and Gutierrez

TheJay recently posted a list of players with similarly low OBP to Gomez and how their careers panned out.  I was also taking a look at how Gomez's numbers stacked up to another current player who had a comparable career so far both statistically and in terms of their scouting reports as prospects; the Mariners' Franklin Gutierrez (his .307 OBP in the first three seasons of his MLB career missed TheJay's cutoff, as did his 23-25 age).  Here's what I saw (please excuse the lack of formatting):

Gomez - Rookie (2004, age 18)    - 239 PA - .281 AVG - .324 OBP - .407 SLG - .184 BB/K
Gutierrez - Rookie (2001, age 18) - 258 PA - .269 AVG - .324 OBP - .389 SLG - .410 BB/K


Gomez - A (2005, age 19)    - 539 PA - .275 AVG - .331 OBP - .376 SLG - .364 BB/K
Gutierrez - A (2002, age 19) - 419 PA - .283 AVG - .345 OBP - .456 SLG - .348 BB/K


Gomez - AA (2006, age 20)   - 486 PA - .281 AVG - .350 OBP - .423 SLG - .280 BB/K
Gutierrez - AA (04-05, 21-22) - 724 PA - .278 AVG - .343 OBP - .440 SLG - .344 BB/K


Gomez - AAA (2007, age 21)   - 153 PA - .287 AVG - .366 OBP - .412 SLG - .650 BB/K
Gutierrez - AAA (06-07, 23-24) - 596 PA - .295 AVG - .376 OBP - .448 SLG - .548 BB/K


Gomez - MLB1 (2007, age 21)    - 139 PA - .232 AVG - .288 OBP - .304 SLG - .300 BB/K
Gutierrez - MLB1 (2006, age 23) - 141 PA - .272 AVG - .288 OBP - .360 SLG - .110 BB/K


Gomez - MLB2 (2008, age 22)    - 614 PA - .258 AVG - .296 OBP - .360 SLG - .180 BB/K
Gutierrez - MLB2 (2007, age 24) - 301 PA - .266 AVG - .318 OBP - .472 SLG - .270 BB/K


Gomez - MLB3 (2009, age 23)    - 349 PA - .229 AVG - .287 OBP - .337 SLG - .310 BB/K
Gutierrez - MLB3 (2008, age 25) - 440 PA - .248 AVG - .307 OBP - .383 SLG - .310 BB/K


They're quite similar players, really.  Gutierrez has an obvious edge in power, but by all accounts Gomez actually has a stronger build and more "raw power" (why he hasn't shown any of it is another question).  Gomez is also different from Gutierrez in that he's considerably faster and more highly-touted on the bases.  What I find most interesting:

1) Their OBP are extremely similar at every level.  Gutierrez only pulls more than ten or so points away when comparing their second MLB years - when he was the age Gomez will be going into next season.  I wasn't sure if it made more sense to compare their lines by age or by level, but in either case the similarities are apparent and show an improvement from Gutierrez in his age 24 season.

2) Their combined BB/K ratios over their first three years in the MLB are relatively similiar.  I didn't list them, but their K% are also quite similar with Gomez actually having an edge over Gutierrez.

3) The clear advantage Gutierrez has is in his power (as rather crudely measured here by SLG).  But if you go by age instead of year (which makes sense, since I think there's a pretty strong consensus that power develops as players get into their mid-later twenties) the large gap by level disappears.  Gutierrez put up a .360 SLG in the MLB at age 23, Gomez put up a .360 SLG at age 22 and dropped off a bit at age 23 with a .337 (when his whole offensive game suffered for not getting a chance to start every day).  At age 24 (Gomez's 2010) Gutierrez slugged .472 - though it's obviously unreasonable to expect that big of a jump from Gomez.

Why is this interesting? Maybe it's not, I just though I would compare Gomez to a fellow centerfielder with a similar play-type and scouting report.  Gutierrez is arguably a much better defender than even Gomez, and clearly has shown more power (18 HR last season).  But Gomez has room to grow defensively and has a huge edge in Gutierrez in SB-potential. 

It's also interesting to note, just for fun, the season Gutierrez had in 2009:  aided by an admittedly freak defensive season (29.1 UZR!) something we certainly shouldn't expect from Gomez (nor should it really be expected again from Gutierrez) - Gutierrez was by far the most valuable centerfielder in the major leagues, worth 5.9 WAR and $26.4 million.  Even if you drop his UZR to a more realistic 20 (what he put up in 2008, and maybe a very optimistic ceiling for Gomez's ability) he would have still been somewhere around tied with Matt Kemp for the most valuable CF in the game.

Am I saying we should expect such phenomenal numbers as Gutierrez posted in 2009 anytime soon from Gomez?  Not at all; he clearly still needs a lot of work on his plate discipline, on his ability to translate his supposed raw power into in-game results, and also on his baserunning to compensate for his lack of power. 

What I am saying, however, is that the legions of commentators (not necessarily on this site, but extending even to quite a few "professional analysts") who are writing Gomez off as a career defensive replacement, a poor player, or a failed prospect - and of the Hardy/Gomez trade as a laughable Twins coup in terms of value - can easily be proven wrong in the next few years.

I get the criticism of the trade I'm seeing here on BCB, and I'm not really sure it was a smart trade by Melvin myself, but Gomez is here now and I for one am quite excited to have such a promising young player on the team; even if the lack of a pitching return from Hardy is initially underwhelming.

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Comments

Display:

Sure, but how does it help the Brewers win now?

That’s why this trade is garbage. Who’s got time to wait for another player with ‘tremendous upside’ when the Yankees are ready to sign Prince in 2012?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 8, 2009 7:24 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You really can't say that the Yankees are going to sign Prince.

I don’t know if you were just using the Yankees to mean any big-payroll team, but the Yankees will probably have Jeter or A-Rod at DH at that point with Teixiera still at first.

by NoahJ on Nov 8, 2009 8:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but the point is still valid...

… really, who cares who it is that signs Prince in 2012 if it ain’t us?

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Nov 8, 2009 9:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Yes, I was being facetious, but its relevant.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For the record:

I don’t hate Gomez, and I get what you’re saying, and I agree: he’s exciting, and I’m excited to watch him. I will root for him next year.

I just don’t appreciate the double talk I’m getting from the Front Office as a purchaser of a large amount of tickets, concessions, merchandise. In fact, Doug Melvin saying this team is a ‘win now’ team, and then making this trade while talking about leaving Rickie Weeks at leadoff (who knows how he’ll bounce back from his injury, in any case), saying LuCroy will be a ‘candidate’ for C, Escobar starting, McGehee starting, Hart starting…its insulting.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 8, 2009 7:27 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

So, you were hoping for Melvin to replace half the starter roster in return for Hardy…?

You say trading for Gomez was a bad idea because he’s nothing more than a player with “tremendous upside” – but what sort of pitching were we going to get for Hardy? Either pitching with high upside but questionable effectiveness in 2010 (Bowden) or boring back-of-the-rotation major league ready pitching (a Perkins-type). Paired with Cameron (who I love, but who will be 37 next year) neither of those pitching types seem more “win now” to me than Gomez + whoever Melvin can get for the money saved with letting Cameron walk.

Who knows, we’re taking it for granted that we could have even signed Cameron again; it’s quite likely that coming off two nice seasons here he’s looking for a raise and a multi-year deal. Do you really want the Brewers to sign Cameron into his 40s? Furthermore, if there is any chance at all of the Brewers resigning Fielder (I personally think there’s a very good chance) it makes a lot more sense to have Gomez relatively cheap for the next four years than Cameron. (I’m hoping this is what Melvin had in mind too when he stressed that he was looking specifically for cheap but effective pitching/centerfielders in return for Hardy)

Now, this doesn’t mean Melvin is beyond reproach. If he does something stupid like use the available payroll space to bring back Looper or sign someone like Washburn, I too will be upset. It also seems like with Gerut on the team, not at least trying to pursue a Hart trade makes no sense. But as it stands right now I think you’re being unreasonably harsh on both Melvin and the current 2010 roster (how are you not excited for full seasons from Weeks/Escobar?)

The huge potential going forward that Gomez has (and his similarities to the best centerfielder in the major leagues last season…) are only a giant bonus on an already sensible deal.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Currently ordering my Carlos Gomez jersey*

by SRB on Nov 8, 2009 9:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Michael Bowden

I take that every day of the week rather than Carlos Gomez for Hardy.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're being unneccessarily dreamy-eyed

Remember last time Weeks had this exact same injury? It took 2 years to recover.

Corey Hart’s offense has been in a back slide for 2 years.

Historically, when players do what Casey McGehee did in 2009, they regress.

Historically, players do not hit to their MLB lines (see: Escobar, Alcides; LuCroy, Jonathan).

Historically, Carlos Gomez sometimes runs his bat into the ball.

Trading for Bowden would have provided at least a #5 starter to take Suppan’s place in the rotation. If not that, then rotational depth. I would certainly take my chances on Bowden over Suppan.

Also, I’ll be Coco Crisp could have been had for $2.5M, he plays good defense, and he knows how to hit somewhat. Plus, then you’re paying about $1M more than Gomez is making, and still have room for the better of Lorenzo Cain and Logan Schafer.

But now, The Mustache has to sign Doug Davis and Jarrod Washburn. If you think this looks like a playoff caliber team, I’ll call you crazy and laugh:

Weeks
Escobar
Braun
Fielder
McGehee
Hart
Any Catcher
Gomez

Gallardo
Doug Davis
Jarrod Washburn
Dave Bush
Manny Parra.

Just live that for a minute. Breathe it. The window is closing.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why are you assuming that DM is going to sign both Davis and Washburn?

"A D+ Grade? That must have been a Wittardo grade"- @73_MC

by BrewHaHeather on Nov 9, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True

It will most likely be Davis and Mulder. If that makes you feel better.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That does make me feel better!

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 6:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True

It will most likely be Davis and Mulder. If that makes you feel better.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It didn't make me feel better the first time.

Second time wasn’t so good, either.

:)

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Together we sigh.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It does make me feel better

because Mulder would mostly likely be on a one-year incentive-laden deal and Washburn would want an expensive multi-year deal.

"A D+ Grade? That must have been a Wittardo grade"- @73_MC

by BrewHaHeather on Nov 9, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Melvin’s MO has been overpaying, though. So you can’t rule it out.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 7:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm...you're right, on second thought, maybe it doesn't.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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