Monday's Frosty Mug

by KLSnow on Nov 9, 2009 10:01 AM CST in News Comment 143 comments

by Ann Heisenfelt - AP

Carlos Gomez makes the wrong kind of contact.

Some things to read while realizing you left your credit card in your other armor.

Thanks to Dan, Tyler and Rubie for filling in for me last week while I took a quick break to experience life in New York for a few days. Writing the Mug is no small feat, and all three of them did admirable work in my place, so be sure to stop by their sites today to thank them. It's good to be home. With that said, I'm going in for oral surgery in roughly an hour so I'm off again tomorrow, and I've lined up another of my favorite Brewer bloggers to fill in. I'm hoping to return on Wednesday but that will depend on how I bounce back and how coherent I am on Vicodin.

The Brewers, of course, saw fit to ruin a perfectly good day of my vacation by trading J.J. Hardy for Carlos Gomez. If you weren't around the site this weekend, you missed a lot of great content on the trade: Jordan weighed in with his disappointment, Jeff made the case for keeping Mike Cameron anyway, and Noah, writing his first weekend roundup, had a great collection of thoughts on the deal from around the web. With that said, there's still a bunch more out there:

The Transaction Oracle compared Gomez to Tom Goodwin and said, "Gomez's version of selectivity is staring blankly at a random pitch and then flailing at the next one."
Tom Powers of the St. Paul Pioneer-Press called Gomez "clueless" and said he "has the baseball instincts of an Icelandic grade-schooler." (h/t BBTF)
The Grand National Championships called Gomez "a Juan Pierre without all that incessant singles hitting."
TheJay has a look at the career paths of players who have made as many PAs as Gomez has at such a young age with such a low OBP. Not exceptionally pretty.
Aaron Gleeman says Gomez has gotten a bum rap, but also likes the deal for the Twins.
Miller Park Drunk has a roundup of other things people are saying about Gomez.
Meanwhile, despite Jeff's objections, Doug Melvin confirmed that the Brewers' decision to acquire Gomez means they won't make a push to retain Mike Cameron for 2010.
Nick's Twins Blog has an overview of the deal, including my scouting report for Hardy.
Twinkie Town has some questions about Hardy's defense (based largely on the comments of some frequent BCB'ers), and whether or not it's as good as advertised.
FanGraphs has a look at Hardy's defense, and rated him the third most valuable defensive player in baseball since 2007.
Along with the Red Sox (and presumably some others), the Reds confirmed interest in Hardy. Melvin didn't want to deal Hardy in the division, so he was forced to accept less from someone else.
The Ghost of Moonlight Graham called the deal a steal for the Twins.
Rubie Q called the deal "worst nightmare stuff."
Baseball-Intellect says the Twins got Hardy for "pennies on the dollar."
Sabernomics is having a hard time choosing a winner in the deal.
Jorge Says No! says this deal has the potential to be win-win.

As of this writing, 54% of voters in the poll on your right think the Twins won the trade, with just 13% picking the Brewers. Gomez is walking in the door with a large portion of the fans believing he's not worth much, and it can be tough to overcome that when you're carrying a sub-.300 OBP. This could be the deal that sinks Doug Melvin.

Now, the Brewers have to find a way to wisely spend the financial windfall. MLB Trade Rumors has the likely landing spots for this winter's top 50 free agents, and lists both Doug Davis and Jarrod Washburn as likely Brewers, and also lists the Crew as a potential interested party regarding Jon Garland. Meanwhile, they have Felipe Lopez as a Dodger, Mike Cameron as a Padre and Ben Sheets as a Ranger.

Beyond that, there's not a lot of Brewer news, unless you wanted to talk about the decision to decline David Weathers' option.

Around baseball:

D-Backs: Exercised Brandon Webb's option for 2010.
Dodgers: Declined Jon Garland's option for 2010.
Nationals: Declined Austin Kearns' option for 2010.
Phillies: Exercised Cliff Lee's option for 2010 and declined Pedro Feliz's.
Pirates: Designated pitchers Virgil Vazquez and Eric Hacker and catcher Steve Lerud for assignment.
Red Sox: Declined their option for 2010 on Alex Gonzalez.
Reds: Outrighted outfielder Danny Richar and first baseman Kevin Barker to AAA. Both will be minor league free agents.
Rockies: Declined options on catcher Yorvit Torrealba and Alan Embree.
Royals: Declined 2010 options for Coco Crisp, Miguel Olivo and Yasuhiko Yabuta.
Tigers: Removed outfielder Marcus Thames and catcher Matt Treanor from their 40-man roster.
White Sox: Bought out the final year of Jermaine Dye's contract.

I'm going to wrap this up quickly, because my pre-surgery meds are starting to kick in:

Miguel Olivo has been mentioned as a potential option for the Brewers next season. Beyond the Box Score has a comprehensive list of things he does well.
Phil Birnbaum looks at the possibility that younger umpires have more accurate strike zones.
Baseball Reference wants your thoughts to help improve their site.
Seventeen congressmen voted no on a resolution congratulating the Yankees for winning the World Series. One of them was Wisconsin rep Jim Sensenbrenner. (h/t Baseball Musings)

On this day in 1982, Robin Yount was the unanimous choice to win the AL MVP after leading the AL in hits, doubles, slugging, OPS, OPS+ and total bases, while playing shortstop for the AL Champion Brewers.

It's also a big day for Brewer birthdays:

Dave Bush turns 30.
Angel Miranda, who appeared in 116 games as a Brewer between 1993 and 1997, turns 40.
Dion James, who was the Brewers' first round pick in the 1980 draft, turns 47.
Teddy Higuera, arguably the greatest pitcher in Brewer history, turns 51. You should celebrate his birthday by purchasing the sponsorship on his Bref page, which is available for $10.

Drink up.

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Comments

Gooooooooo-MEZ!

I like the trade… It frees up some money, gives the Brewers outfield options… and he can run. Not too many Brewers were getting on base much better than Gomez last season… Give him a shot.

by Drew C on Nov 9, 2009 10:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

17 is not too many, I suppose

Sign Corky Miller

by TheJay on Nov 9, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm willing to give him a shot

but the reason you gave is flat out wrong. his OBP was sub – .300. That’s not batting average, it’s on base percentage!! Here’s hoping sveum can teach him how to choose his pitches.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As the kids say now-a-days: WTF?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps more to the point

How many Brewers hitters were more valuable last year than Gomez was in his last full season?

Only two that are confirmed to be on the team next year: Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Currently ordering my Carlos Gomez jersey*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You don't have to curb-stomp the horse's head.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Where'd you go in NY?

Also, I vote for you to post your thoughts on the Brewers off-season so far and suggested moves while you’re on Vicodin.

Either it will be fun to read (although possibly incoherent), or you’ll be able to win an MVP award.

by Capt Science on Nov 9, 2009 10:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

what bothers me about the "it frees up money" argument..

…is that there are no guarantees we’ll get anyone impactful in the FA market…made worse by the fact the market isn’t terribly deep to begin with. So we’ll likely need to make a second trade. Maybe it’s Corey to the Braves. But if the only way to assure you get pitching is to trade for it, why do you send your best trading card packing during the first week of the hot stove season? It’s not like the Mets were going to send Santana back for Gomez.

Unless Doug pulls a rabbit out of his hat over the next ten days (about as likely as a sackless Packer Sunday), I just don’t get it.

by infield fly on Nov 9, 2009 10:48 AM CST reply actions 2 recs

They could

Have freed up the money, though, to pick up a guy currently under contract who has become too expensive for his current team. And then the available money just pays for that guys salary. Not a bad proposition because they dont have to send as much over as far as prospects go.

A guy like Vazquez, or Webb/Haren from Arizona could go a long way, and would be relatively cheap for the Brewers to pursue, personnel wise. Heck, if they picked up Webb, they could do the same thing with a Catcher if they wanted. And in the end, not many high upside guys leave the Brewers. Arizona would probably love to be free of $8-13 mil in salary obligations.

Do I think they will do that? Probably not

by backtocali on Nov 9, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Vazquez isn't 'too expensive for his current team'

Derek Lowe is. Vazquez would be dangled for some good prospects. Lowe for salary relief.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What do you think it would take to get Haren?

or better yet, why would he be available?

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Answers

1) Everything we have
2) And even then, probably not.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why were Cliff Lee or CC Sabathia available? Why is Halladay?

For the same reasons that Haren might be. Of any team in baseball I think that the Dbacks are struggling mightily in the revenue/cash department. Freeing up the amount of money owed to him would probably be of great relief to that teams ownership.

I would guess that if the Brewers wanted to get Haren, it would take something like: Gamel/Lawrie/and one of our higher ceiling pitchers not named Arnett, as well as pick up every cent of his salary. Haren has about $35 million in surplus value.

by backtocali on Nov 9, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That package would totally be worth it.

Throw in Manny also.

My question about availability was based on the fact that he’s still got several years remaining on his contract. I’m sure they’ll shop Webb around, but if they’re probably going to wait at least a year to trade Haren.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree.

Haren is legit, and I’d give plenty to get him. But I don’t think he’s on the block, and I’d be surprised if it was just posturing. Here’s a summary of what was said over the summer. If we somehow got him, I’d call Doug Melvin the greatest man alive and immediately buy jerseys for everyone I know.

by Capt Science on Nov 9, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Will you count me as someone you know?

I’d LOVE a Haren Brewers Jersey

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

how 'bout a t-shirt?

i would be so happy, it would be a pleasure to buy a stack of t-shirts for regulars here.

by Capt Science on Nov 9, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cut... paste.... save...

… now if you’d be so kind as to give us your home address and phone number.

Oh, and I’m an XL.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Nov 9, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

it does free up money, but the team is still run by Doug Melvin, which means the money will all go towards signing Davis and Mulder and maybe Thompson and any other pitchers the Cards dump over the winter.

by morineko on Nov 9, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right

Simply letting Cameron go would have freed up that money - we didn’t have to trade JJ to do that.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m hoping having Gerut on the team paves the way for a Hart trade.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Currently ordering my Carlos Gomez jersey*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Are we that sold on Gerut as an everyday guy?

Sure he did better when he got more consistant playing time, but: (say it with me now) small sample size.

by thefreewheelin76 on Nov 9, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not entirely sold

But I don’t think he’s any worse than Hart at this point, and Hart is a few million more expensive.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Why is this point seemingly wasted on folks who think this was an amazing trade?

I don’t get it.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guarantee you the money made available by not resigning Cameron is capable of netting a more imapactful free agent pitcher than what we would have gotten for Hardy (whether or not that difference overcomes the drop-off in replacing Cameron with Gomez is a separate question)

Melvin did mention Lackey. I think that might be a little far-fetched, but if the Brewers could sign him I would consider it a great offseason.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Currently ordering my Carlos Gomez jersey*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lackey to Yankees.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

rec'd

for “sackless Packer Sunday”

but then I have to question what you mean by “sackless” – planning on stopping by Art’s Performing Center?

by PagsBrewCrew on Nov 13, 2009 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome back, Doug Davis

sigh.

Washburn

double sigh.

Any chance the Rangers want to give us Brandon McCarthy for Brent Brewer? Didn’t think so.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'll sigh with you. Sigh.

All of a sudden, that spring training clock TheJay posted looks like a countdown to destruction.

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT GETS TO ZERO?!?!

Oh lord, I don’t want to know!

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just don't attempt to divide by zero.

Looking to buy: General Manager Deputy Badge

by Bush League All Star on Nov 9, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't that a song by The Fixx?

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One thing Leads to another?

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Nov 9, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

... anooother....

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Nov 9, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Back when he posted it, we decided if Jason Kendall was re-signed...

then when the clock hit zero, there should be a little mushroom cloud on the site.

by Yar Nivek on Nov 9, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Couple things tweeted

According to Adam McCalvy…

Gomez will wear #22, and bring all the hitting prowess the #22 holds in it. Not a good sign.

Heether was added to the 40man roster. But yet a perfectly good slot that could be used for a bag of balls is still used for Patterson.

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 11:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Patterson filed for FA

Along with Lopez, Cameron, Catalanotto, and Kendall.

Sign Corky Miller

by TheJay on Nov 9, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And?

His existence on the roster is just pointless! :)

Sorry I want him gone, worst call up in the history of history!

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Until Nov. 20 the spots won't be cleared

That’s when players filing have to negotiate with current team.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe they're technically open now

The FAs just can’t talk to any other team.

Sign Corky Miller

by TheJay on Nov 9, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

I guess technically, yes. For all intents and purposes, they won’t be cleared until Nov. 20.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know it doesn't mean much right now

But something about Patterson eating up a roster spot erks the crap out of me. If he wants to talk to other clubs, I in fact encourage it.

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're a Twitterer

Go tweet other clubs about how they should pursue C-Patt. It would be for the greater good.

You've got a couple screws missin' up in your toolbox, if you think that you'll stop this man from hittin' moonshots.

by hawing on Nov 9, 2009 6:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good idea

Done. He’s the best player in the league. Very undervalued.

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Do we like Torrealba?

What do we think of him? Should the Crew take a shot? Just curious.

by Cheeseandcorn on Nov 9, 2009 11:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think most folks like him.

Which will be one problem. That and the fact he’s likely wanting a multi-year deal. And it looks like The Mustache wants Jonathan LuCroy in ASAP.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what would he cost?

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Would

He be a major improvement over Kendall? He had 0.8 WAR in about 40% of the games. He was projected by Pecota to have about the same WAR in 20% of the games.

Probably would want at least a 2 year deal, and even if it were just a one year deal, its about $5 million for a 1 WAR guy.

Id prefer Olivo, though he wouldnt be my first choice, but he will cost more.

by backtocali on Nov 9, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What do you want Olivo for?

The bad defense, or lack of anything but power at the plate?

Although he’d still be more valuable than Kendall.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's primed for a breakout year, according to one random guy on a baseball blog.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, well that changes everything.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's probably

twice as or as much as 50% more expensive than Torrealba is, given his 09 season.

Could he be a 2 WAR guy for the next two years? That would be the main concern for me. And then if he is, are you going to pay him $7.5 mil a year (underpaying at that)?

The Catcher market is pretty thin. Finding surprises there is pretty tough to do. Maybe they go to the Indian well again and pick up Kelly Shoppach. With Carlos Santana on the verge, he is probably out of a job, could be picked up on the cheap probably, maybe for any 2 of Scarpetta, Periard, Peralta, Aguilar, Frederickson or Nieves

by backtocali on Nov 9, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd love to get Schoppach

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 9, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Brewers

Don’t need another swing and miss guy… From everyones opinions on Gomez we already gained another one.
One of my best friends is an Indian fan and he was frustrated to no end with him.

by Drew C on Nov 10, 2009 10:02 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

ahem

replaced another one. although Cam wasn’t really a swing and miss guy so much as a stare and miss guy.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 10, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But those guys you mention have a large range of value

if you’re saying Peralta and Frederickson are interchangeable, I disagree.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 9, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was

Just going off of Sickel’s 09 Review Grades. But sounds about right.

by backtocali on Nov 9, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd just take Carlos Santana

His defense is so smooth. Just like the ocean under the moon, from what I hear.

by Cheeseandcorn on Nov 9, 2009 9:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

but who exactly would be his Spanish Harlem Mona Lisa?

by PagsBrewCrew on Nov 13, 2009 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fangraphs WAR doesn't consider catcher defense

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 9, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So the Royals cleared 3 spots on their 40 man roster

Coincidence? I think not!

by Getting Yosted on Nov 9, 2009 12:03 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

What number do you think Greinke will wear?

I can’t wait!

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

#22!

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

FWIW

MLBTR got 15 out of 50 FAs right last year by my count. Much better in the top half than the bottom half, understandably.

by Cheeseandcorn on Nov 9, 2009 12:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Gomez links

I’m genuinely astounded by people’s inability to see Gomez’s value. Arguing that the trade made no sense because of the makeup and needs of the Brewers team is one thing, but that’s not what I’m seeing for the most part.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Currently ordering my Carlos Gomez jersey*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 12:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Did you miss the part where people wondered why pitching wasn't involved?

Sign Corky Miller

by TheJay on Nov 9, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

I believe that would fall under the category of

“Arguing that the trade made no sense because of the makeup and needs of the Brewers team”

Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?

by Lefti on Nov 9, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, and there was a lot of that

Sign Corky Miller

by TheJay on Nov 9, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, now I get your response

Sorry, posting when I should be working usually doesn’t go well :-p

Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?

by Lefti on Nov 9, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"A lot" = minority of commentators?

Most of what I saw was people dismissing Gomez as a terrible player.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My dyslexia read that as a lot of minority commentors

I was left wondering, “How can you tell?”

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

He is a terrible player

at offense.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess time will tell

How about we leave it at that…

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At some point I guess you agree to disagree

I just don’t put any stock in assuming he’s suddenly going to flip a switch after consistently doing his vacuum impression at the plate.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This

Rec’d

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who has refused to acknowledge that Gomez is an outstanding defensive center fielder?

Or does he have some other value that I’m missing?

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't.

And no one has argued that he isn’t outstanding defensively.

The problem is, SRB is arguing that he is going to have a breakout offensive season in 2010.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm.

Not anticipating a breakout season = not seeing his value?

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’d say calling this trade “worst nightmare stuff” qualifies as not attributing very much value to Gomez.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the "worst nightname" stuff comes by what we gave up, not what little we got in return.

Gomez is fine and all, but we could have gotten more for Hardy. A lot more.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who?

Michael Bowden does not have “a lot more” value than Gomez, neither next year in 2010 nor over the next four years. And that’s even assuming Bowden was actually offered, I suspect it was more along the lines of back-of-the-rotation starters.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, and I currently, in terms of what the brewers need, value back of the rotation starters over Carlos Gomez.

Hopefully it’ll work out in the end.

We can’t really judge the trade until we see what we do with the $ savings anyway.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As should we all

This may be the first time we agree. I’ll mark it down.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm hoping Cameron's $10 million nets better pitching than Glen Perkins

You’re right though, if the trade results in Melvin being able to bring back Braden Looper (yuck) it will probably look more like a huge bust, at least for 2010.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But we didn't need to trade hardy to clear cameron's salary.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you consider Gerut a viable starter in centerfield, but I imagine if Melvin had gone that route the same people would be just as angry. Not only is Gomez better than Gerut, but for all we know Melvin has other plans in mind for the latter (like starting in place of Hart)

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's possible, but this is another reason we can't really judge this trade yet.

Plus, Gerut is by FAR the better offensive player, and while he may be a step down on defense from Gomez, I’d venture that the offense makes up for it.

I could look it up to verify, but I’m starting to lose interest. Maybe someone quicker with the internets can do that for me.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

get out of my head!

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry, but in my opinion....

… a trade that’s good only when you consider the moves that come after = a bad trade.

The question isn’t what Melvin does with the situation he’s in now, but whether he got adequate value for Hardy. And the answer to that question is a no from virtually everyone, even when you consider the additional years of control.

If Hardy returns to his +4-5 WAR status and Gomez stays roughly where he is, then it’s a bad deal, and that will be true regardless of what they do with the money they’ve saved at CF.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Nov 9, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Gerut is a career 8.3 UZR in CF

So its not like there would be a great divide between that and Cameron’s 10.3 last season or Gomez’s 10.0.

And, as odd as it sounds to say, Jody Gerut is a superior offensive player to Carlos Gomez.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bah one more item here

We can’t really judge the trade until we see what we do with the $ savings anyway.

This bears a quote for emphasis. If it turns out (like I suspect) that there will be no other trades, and Doug Davis and Mark Mulder are signed as the big pitching upgrades, this trade is utter garbage.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

What the hell?

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

I’ve been saying that since it was announced.

I think Gomez is fun to watch, dudes’ fast, but I don’t expect a break out year, and I think Hardy could have netted us at least some pitching in the minors. Set us up for a last run with the old guard in 2011 when Suppans money is off the books.

Then cry when Fielder becomes a yankee.

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, Doug Davis

Brewerfan posters know I’m a fan, but FSWisconsin tonight is showing the Brewers Classic where the Brewers hang 9 runs on Davis in 3 innings (including Yovani’s first MLB home run, and – maybe more scary – a Kevin Mench triple).
What a nice glimpse to have of the potential future. They’ll have to be sure to show that game again right after Doug re-signs Doug.

You've got a couple screws missin' up in your toolbox, if you think that you'll stop this man from hittin' moonshots.

by hawing on Nov 9, 2009 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

They're name brothers

it is destiny.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure how to feel about that Bowden thing.

If it’s true, I’m assuming DM doesn’t see Bowden helping us in 2010. This would make me think that DM thinks he can find a better pitching option for 2010 through free agency, and that DM is playing for 2010, unlike what some posters have suggested.

As for whether or not he’s going about it in the correct manner, or has his goals mixed up, we’ll have to wait and see how the rest of the offseason goes.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just don't think that adding Gomez is 'playing for 2010'

Its a HUGE question mark whether the offense will ever be there, and particularly next season. Gerut is slightly worse defensively and much better offensively. And he’s already on your team.

Maybe he’ll prove everyone wrong and actually hit an OBP north of .300 for the first time in his career.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Our batting line-up is going to include Escobar, Gomez, someone out of the Kendall-Rivera-Lucroy-Salome group (in all likelihood), plus the pitcher. That does not scream ‘playing for 2010’ to me.

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 2:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Point is

It’s probably more ‘playing for 2010’ than anyone else JJ would have netted(back of the rotation starter).

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I simply disagree

Almost anyone would have been an upgrade over 4/5 of the 2009 starting rotation. I’ll pretty much guarantee that if Bowden were in the 2010 rotation, he’d pitch better than Suppan, and Parra and Bush are no guarantees, either.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But what's the point if you can get a middle of the rotation guy somewhere else?

That’s why I’m saying we have to wait and see who gets picked up in FA. If it’s Bedard and Sheets/Harden/Duchscherer, I think we’ve accomplished something, and there would have been no sense in trading for a back of the rotation guy.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess it bears repeating

why did this have to go down so fast?

My feeling is that Sheets will never put on a Brewers uni again (too many hard feelings), Harden will be sought after by others and, besides, Mustache will have already signed Doug Davis and Mark Mulder, so why does he need to look at Duchscherer? Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Bedard go under the knife for a frayed labrum or something? If so, who knows if he’ll even pitch in 2010.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But right now, we NEED back of the rotation starters.

So that we can do something else with our “shouldn’t be in the rotation” starters.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

And, even when our bad back end guys went down last year

they were able to find a guy who was worse. Goodbye, Mike Burns.

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think it comes from what we expected to get in return.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

From now on ...

All inquiries should be directed to my spokesperson, Mykenk.

My point was: we gave up a ton to get an excellent defensive center fielder who is miles away from being competent, offensively. Add in the fact that we’re going to use the extra money to sign Mulder and Davis, and, in my opinion, you’ve got a nightmare.

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 1:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Que?

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You made my point before I could respond.

Thanks. :)

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 1:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Why divide it into defense vs. offense? Gomez is a below average hitter but he is a good enough defender that his total value is still very nice. If he were a great hitter with a lead glove (combining to give similar value) I doubt people would be as angry.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not divided into offense vs. defense:

Gomez Defense > Gerut Defense

Gerut Offense >> Gomez Defense.

Gerut Offense + Gerut Defense > Gomez Offense + Gomez Defense.

by Mykenk on Nov 9, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I divide it into defense and offense ...

because we gave up a player who, historically, has been good-to-very good at both — and at a premium defensive position, no less — for one who is very good at one and very, very bad at the other. To me, that doesn’t seem like equal value.

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like Gomez

It’s like if we would pick up Jayson Werth. He’s a good player, right? Lots of good points. But if we traded Ryan Braun for him I’d be pissed and yell a lot and say things like Jayson Werth is no good, no good at all.

I have two problems with the trade— Melvin’s strategy, and the fact he didn’t get a pitcher of similar value. First, he didn’t even call some teams with shortstop problems and ignored teams in his own division, which probably limited him to just a couple teams and he pulled the trigger way too fast. Next, I don’t see Gomez providing much of an upgrade over Gerut and a minimum wage righty centerfielder for next year anyway, and he could’ve gotten a picher that provided similar long-term value to Gomez while getting the same cost savings while upgrading the team for next year instead of keeping it about the same.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 9, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He called 6-7 teams, and I assure you if he didn’t call Detroit it was after hours of professionals scouring their system for possible fits and not finding any. He didn’t trade with the Reds because after “several talks” they didn’t match up, not because he refuses to deal within the division (empirically false). Nor do we know for sure that he was even offered a Bowden-type; that rumor was sketchy in the first place and probably referred to talks that went on back during the regular season (I really doubt Melvin was asking for Buchholz in the last few weeks…).

You bring up an interesting point with the Werth/Braun scenario. Supposing they had equal value (they clearly don’t, given their potentials, Werth’s age and Braun’s contract), I think everyone here would be upset at Melvin for making the trade. But that doesn’t mean it would be bad value-wise, it just means we are subjectively big Braun fans and would hate to see him go.

I think there a lot of Hardy fans that either totally overvalued him (you can’t just pretend 2009 didn’t happen) and expected something huge in return, or who are just subjectively big Hardy fans and sad to see him go (I like Hardy and hate to see him go too). But instead of paying dues to Hardy’s great run here in Milwaukee, and welcoming the four years of a promising young player we got in return, people have been bending over backwards to find point possible on which to criticize Melvin. Would you have seriously advocated starting Gerut in CF next season (with no apparent backup, mind you) a week ago? I highly doubt it.

We need to wait to see how the rest of this offseason pans out; if Melvin pursues trading Hart, what pitchers he brings in, etc. before we can look back and call this a good trade or a bad trade. But in terms of value, it is objectively a fair trade for both teams.

Ryan Braun: He loves it. *Secretly, I am Carlos Gomez*

by SRB on Nov 9, 2009 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're really begging the question

Do you know Doug Melvin personally? Or have an inside source? Because:

He called 6-7 teams, and I assure you if he didn’t call Detroit it was after hours of professionals scouring their system for possible fits and not finding any. He didn’t trade with the Reds because after "several talks" they didn’t match up, not because he refuses to deal within the division (empirically false)

comes off sounding like you had a chat with him the other day.

Also, didn’t you say you thought The Mustache had been working on this for a while, that’s why he was able to pull the trigger so fast? If that’s the case…then how do you automagically dismiss the Bowden story (and why do you say its not credible, but the above about Melvin is?)?

I’m not a ‘Hardy fan’ or a ‘Braun fan’ or an ‘Escobar fan’. I’m a Brewers fan. And I think this is a garbage trade.

But in terms of value, it is objectively a fair trade for both teams.

Based on what? WAR?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Another thing that bothers me

For one, I thought Detroit had a fair amount of decent pitching. But when Doug says there’s not a fit (ahem, without bothering to contact them), is he also excluding centerfield?

I guess, if they need a shortstop, and we have an extra shortstop, there’s always a deal that COULD be made. I’d’ve considered trading JJ to Detroit for Alex Sanchez, if Detroit would take Suppan along as well. Hardy + Suppan + Cameron would take close to $30 million off the books.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 6:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also

The whole “they want something, but don’t have something we want” situation was the reason three way trades were invented.

That's all I've got for you today, unless you're interested in some Chris Capuano/Tom Haudricourt Fan Fiction.

by KLSnow on Nov 9, 2009 6:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's funny.

I don’t dislike the trade that much. But, because of the trade, I’ve begun to harbor some dislike towards DM.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 10:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome aboard!

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Baseball Ref's Top 10 comps

   1. Kurt Abbott (958)
   2. Dick Dietz (955)
   3. Clint Barmes (954)
   4. Tyler Houston (950)
   5. Russell Martin (948)
   6. Aaron Robinson (946)
   7. Rick Wilkins (945)
   8. Gene Oliver (945)
   9. Junior Spivey (944)
  10. Tadahito Iguchi (943)

A whole lot of peaked at 27, journeyman at 29 and out of baseball a couple years later in that group. And sadly JJ’s swing doesn’t promise to get more effective as the years go by, with it’s table-top hockey quality.

by Getting Yosted on Nov 9, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good question

But wouldnt’ club policy prevent him from commenting on such things? After all didn’t our beloved Josh Kaulk (dixieflatline) move on due to getting a job with an organization, and part of the offer required him to stop posting insider information (read: pitchfx) stuffs?

by SgtClueLs on Nov 9, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The trade being equal

is because 4 years of cost-controlled Gomez is about equal total value to 2 years of cost-controlled Hardy. But that downgrades us for the next 2 years. So that type of trade really makes little sense for a team that would expect to contend in the next two years. And that’s not even looking at the idea that if he was offered a pitcher with a value similar to Gomez, and it seems like he could have easily gotten one, it would have upgraded the team more overall (by your definition of value, a pitcher like Bowden with 6 years of control is more valuable than a Gomez).

And, aside, I was trying to think of an example player that would be ridiculous to accept for Braun but is still a really good player. Braun for Werth would be an outrage to me. It has nothing to do with me being a fan of Braun. It has everything to do with being a fan of the Brewers.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 9, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure that it necessarily downgrades us, since Hardy had become a backup

but it certainly doesn’t upgrade us.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If we had Fiedler backing up Pujols and we traded Fielder for Gomez

Hey, upgrade! But yeah, I know what you mean.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Nov 10, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yup.

just arguing semantics.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 10, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols can be a supersub.

by NoahJ on Nov 10, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Prince like supersubs

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 13, 2009 8:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Gomez picture needs this caption.

“YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!”

Looking to buy: General Manager Deputy Badge

by Bush League All Star on Nov 9, 2009 2:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's still the speed of the trade

Was Gomez being actively pursued by other teams? Did the Twins already have an affordable, quality free agent SS waiting to be signed? I don’t see either of those as being great possibilities.

Who knows what’s going to happen in the offseason? Maybe Jeter surprises the world and retires choosing to go out on top. Maybe Tulowitski breaks his leg falling down some stairs. Or worse yet, A. Escobar falls down some stairs.

Look at it this way, they didn’t trade for Tony Gwynn Jr.

by ecocd on Nov 9, 2009 2:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

How have we gone an hour ...

without somebody making the “You’re right, Gwynn is a better hitter” joke? I’m disappointed.

by Rubie Q on Nov 9, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's because

we’ve moved on from Gwynn to Alex Sanchez.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Or Corey Patterson

by Infield Fly Rule on Nov 9, 2009 6:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That name rings a bell...

Isn’t he actually J.J. Hardy?

I don’t have a category for "washed-up guys who may or may not be dominant big-league closers sometime soon."

~Jeff Sackmann

by Charlie Marlow on Nov 9, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

I believe that was his pen name.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the nightmare to me...

Was the way that Doug Melvin managed to push JJ’s value down as far as he could before trading him.

Sort of like in Brewster’s Millions, where Brewster buys the expensive stamp, and then uses it for postage.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Nov 9, 2009 3:49 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

Pure genius

by backtocali on Nov 9, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder

Last year, we were (I think) 3rd in runs scored, and maybe 7th from the year before, when we were in the postseason. Maybe DM is thinking we can take the hit on offense, so long that we improve on defense (in Escobar and CarGo) and pitching.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Nov 9, 2009 3:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure that's exactly what he's thinking

And I do think that plan can work, but it all depends on what further moves he makes.

Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?

by Lefti on Nov 9, 2009 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

by tcyoung on Nov 9, 2009 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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St. Louis Viva El Birdos	91	71	.561	0	Lost 6
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