Burning question: Carlos Gomez
by roguejim on Dec 30, 2009 11:24 AM CST
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PrintThe question about Prince Fielder's future with the team is probably the hardest one the front office will have to address in Doug Melvin's tenure. (At least it should be, even though I'm convinced we're going to make a franchise-crippling offer to Fielder anyway.) That got me thinking about, of all people, Carlos Gomez.
The 2010 lineup seems about set, and I'm mostly content with the way things are shaping up...except for Gomez. IMHO, even for as good a fielder he is, I think a centerfielder ought to have an OPS of .700 before you pencil him in as a starter on a playoff caliber team. Gomez has never had an OPS higher than .653 in his young career, and finished up last season at .623. In the offense-minded PCL of AAA, he OPSed .714, for a major-league equivalent of .590. I haven't seen him play, but it sure seems like he makes a lot of outs, both in the field but also at the plate.
Putting finances and everything else aside, and focusing solely on the idea that GoGo is our Centerfielder of the Future: would it be in the best interest of the organization, in terms of GoGo's development, to have him at least start 2010 in AAA? Are we assuming that he will OPS .650 with us? If we're expecting better performance at the plate, what is the basis for that optimistic outlook? The magic of Dale Sveum? His own maturity as a player?
Anyway, I'd like to hear what the rest of the BCB community thinks. For better or for worse, GoGo is likely our 2010 centerfielder --- I wonder if we're doing our franchise a disservice by making him so.
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I think it would be better for him to be starting 2010 on a different team entirely
but we’ve curb-stomped that horse.
You bring up and interesting point, and I’d not be averse to it. But I was thinking about this:
With Logan Schafer or Lorenzo Cain probably slated to be the “CF of the Future”, where does that put Gomez? Or does he stay in CF, and Cain or Schafer goes to RF?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 30, 2009 11:28 AM CST reply actions
I'm not sure
Backups or trade bait, I suppose. Or maybe as insurance in case GoGo doesn’t impress the front office.
Can all centerfielders transition easily to a corner outfield spot? If they’re fast enough to play center, they’re certainly fast enough to play right or left field, but I always assumed you’d need a strong throwing arm to play a corner outfield spot well, something not every centerfielder has.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
GoGo's got a plus arm, according to DM. He rated it about a 60 on the 20-80 scale
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
Its a measure that scouts use
50 is solid major league talent
60 is all star quality
70 and above is elite
I think that RF generally needs a stronger arm.
They sometimes have to throw to 3B, but a LF almost never needs to throw to first.
As noted, I'm pretty sure Gomez has a good arm
Its just that things are going to get pretty crowded out there. Braun’s obviously not going anywhere, and Hart’s as good as gone, but that leaves 3 guys for 2 spots—Cain, Schafer and Gomez. Its always possible that one or more of those guys amount to nothing more than a 4th OF, and then there’s no issue (yes I’m including Gomez).
I’m still wondering whether The Mustache is banking on Gomez having something of an offensive outbreak, and then using him as trade bait to make room for either Schafer or Cain. Then again, if Gomez can actually do anything at the plate, he will be a very valuable player—maybe one the Brewers don’t want to trade.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 30, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
Not even a concern
Cain doesnt stay on the 40 man roster after the end of 2010, becoming a minor league free agent.
Schafer still has a lot of development to go before he would replace Gomez, probably around 3 years worth. Plenty of time for Gomez to establish himself.
IMO.
I'll agree that Schafer is a couple years away
but Cain could bounce back. And even if he doesn’t bounce back to top prospect status, I don’t see them dropping him form the 40-man, unless there is some contractual issue I am missing.
"A D+ Grade? That must have been a Wittardo grade"- @73_MC
by BrewHaHeather on Dec 31, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Three years seems like a long time to wait for Schafer.
Assuming he opens 2010 in AA (nearly a given, since he won a batting title in A+ last season), that’s three years for him to advance two levels.
Maybe I’ll be wrong and he’ll stall along the way, but barring injury I’d be surprised if he’s not under consideration for a spot in the majors by the end of 2011 or opening day 2012.
That's all I've got for you today, unless you're interested in some Chris Capuano/Tom Haudricourt Fan Fiction.
Foolish mortal.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 2, 2010 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
Gomez/Schafer/Cain
Regarding some of the above comments, Gomez without a doubt is your starting CF in 2010. If he proves he cannot hit, then it will go to Schafer or Cain. Schafer is the better defender than Cain and Cain more likey to exceed an OPS of .700.
If Gomez does the job defensively, then Cain would move to RF as his arm is a tick higher than Schafer’s. Schafer would then be dealt, but my intution tells me Gomez is a one year rental for one of the other two.
I don't think either will see much action with the Brewers regardless how Gomez hits.
Neither has seen much time in Triple-A…
Schafer was just promoted to Double-A near the end of the season last year.
Cain was briefly promoted to Triple-A in 2008 , but struggled at the plate last season in Double-A.
Both will likely start this season in Double-A.
FWIW, he has two options remaining
Starting Gomez in AAA would make the JJ Hardy trade look even better given Melvin’s pitchingpitchingpitching mantra of the early offseason and the fact Bush and Suppan still round out the rotation.
Either way, I don’t know what he’s going to learn playing everyday in AAA that will make him any more useful to the big club in the future. His big claim to fame is defense anyway.
I suppose that's true.
I guess I was holding onto the idea that more time in the minors might make him a better hitter, whereas he might not improve much at all if he stays in the majors. Not that that makes a lot of sense, of course.
It’s kind of like when they “rush” a player from AA to the big leagues. I think most of the time, the feeling is he’ll be able to hit at the major league level, and they hope his glove comes around. Do they ever rush a player whose glove is major-league ready but whose bat isn’t?
I guess, I’d be in favor of waiting a year if it meant GoGo would be more adept at hitting the ball and getting on base. But your right, I’m not sure another year in the minors would accomplish that.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
Do they ever rush a player whose glove is major-league ready but whose bat isn’t
JJ Hardy
A Escobar
by Saberilliterate on Dec 30, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, I wasn't clear
I meant rush as in skip AAA entirely.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
JJ didn't completly skip AAA
but he only played for about a month before going down with a season ending injury and didn’t really regain his hitting stroke till midseason his rookie year so he might as well have.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Best example of this would be Carlos Gomez, actually.
Mets brought him up at 21.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
Just what the doctor ordered
I remember sitting watching the twins vs the brewers at county stadium (june?) and watching gomez ( i believe he started the game). i turned to my buddys and said “that is exactly the type of player we need”. the dude is lightning fast (he hit one in the gap and by the time i turned to look to see where he was he was already rounding second.
the brewers are at a crossroads in their philosophy of run production. In their hearts they know they will never be able to keep Fielder, so you need to retool. The brew will keep weeks for one more year so that Lawrie will be ready (he is going to be something special folks). the verdict is out on the mcghee / gamel experiment. my money is on mcghee – he seems steady (was their best player in arizona last spring). i dont know what you do with gamel as he hasnt shown with the bat that you have to force him into the lineup somewhere…maybe trade him while he is still unknown. cory hart cannot be your everyday right fielder, period.
getting back to gomez – he will not start in AAA, and hopefully he doesnt end there during the season. love the trade and i think the brewers are going to love the results.
by truebluebrewer on Dec 30, 2009 12:10 PM CST reply actions
Torii Hunter is the type of player we need
We should’ve traded for him.
"A D+ Grade? That must have been a Wittardo grade"- @73_MC
by BrewHaHeather on Dec 30, 2009 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly
Now you’re thinking proactively.
"A D+ Grade? That must have been a Wittardo grade"- @73_MC
by BrewHaHeather on Dec 31, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
What we need
are MAJOR LEAGUE HITTERS!! The guys on this team strike out waaayyy too much and we need guys like a-Rod and Jeter!!!
by NoahJ on Dec 31, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
“I think a centerfielder ought to have an OPS of .700 before you pencil him in as a starter on a playoff caliber team.”
I don’t see how we are a serious playoff caliber team. I wish I could.
I do I do
Well, I’m always optimistic in the offseason. I probably won’t get discouraged until August or so.
I think:
Zaun > 2009 Kendall
Escobar >= 2009 Hardy
Gomez < 2009 Cameron
Hart 2010 > Hart 2009
More importantly:
2010 pitching > 2009 pitching
2010 Cubs < 2009 Cubs
2010 Cardinal < 2009 Cardinals
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
Hart 2010 > Hart 2009
Hope Springs Attorney. :)
by TheJay on Dec 30, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Root Canal 2010> Hart 2009
"I agree but dont agree"
by juggernaut400 on Dec 30, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
His OPS was .753
It sure seemed a lot worse, though.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
You mean Hope Springs Eternal?
I don’t see what lawyers have to do with this.
Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.
Its a Ueker joke
If I recall correctly one of the club house workers gave a pep talk to the team in ’01 or around there and flubbed on the phrase coining, thus, giving Uek vast amounts of enjoyment.
by Braunstalker on Dec 30, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
how did I miss out on that story?
…classic Uek
"This one means 'Kill Kirk!!!!'... And also, 'hallelujah'... Depending on the context."
by trippingandy on Dec 30, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
I guess I though
Uecker’s bit was ‘spring hopes eternal’, at least during spring training. Maybe that was Powell.
Good call
‘spring hopes eternal’ is what I was thinking about.
by Braunstalker on Dec 30, 2009 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
I think we're mixing all of these up
Jim always brought up “Hope springs attorney”.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
Hmmm...
… I tend to be pessimistic by nature, but I’m not convinced that the 2010 Cubs will be worse than the 2009 edition. Ditto for the Cards. And while the Brewers 2010 pitching almost HAS to be better than their 2009 pitching (at least among the starters)… I’m not sure that’s enough to make a fairly ordinary team a contender.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 31, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
his OBP was still high.
And Silva sucks.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
What?
Throwing a ball into the stands after two outs isn’t good?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Jan 1, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Bad game for Bradley...
Not only did he do that, but prior to that, he also had a baserunning mistake, dove and missed a flyball, and lost track of a flyball an inning earlier.
For the type of player that Gomez is
I dont think its ever going to happen. But when looking at Gomez, I believe OBP is the more important statistic to look at.
First of all I think his defense is the primary focus (for any center fielder), and after that its going to be his ability to get on base in front of Braun and Fielder. and advance with his speed. His arm is an added bonus for a CF as well.
I dont think that asking him to be a good OPS guy, asking him to slug a certain way to be effective, is worthwhile. Franklin Gutierrez was a 6 win player last year with a .339 obp. Gomez, as a starter should be a 2 WAR player with sub par offensive numbers He was a 2.3 in his first full season with a sub .300 obp. As he matures that will greatly improve because of the value he adds on defense.
I'll sort of agree
For a player like Gomez, I suppose I don’t care too much about slugging. Still, over 1000 minor league ABs, the MLE of his on base percentage is still .253, within shouting distance of last season’s .287 in Minnesota. On the Brewers last season, only Bill Hall had a lower OBP over 100+ ABs than .287.
Given his newfound importance to the franchise, I hope Sveum or Randolph or someone is able to work with him on getting on base. Still, I assume there’s a cutoff at which point offensive ineffectiveness is not outweighed by defensive prowess, though I’d prefer we not find out what that point is, exactly.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
Let us not forget
Gomez’s throwing to the wrong bases and forgetting where he is type of plays that I so used to enjoy when he was not a Brewer hurt is defensive prowess a bit.
by Braunstalker on Dec 30, 2009 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
I fully expected this post to be about Herpes.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Dec 30, 2009 12:26 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Well, let's see how the comments go
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Dec 30, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
It definitely would be horrifying if he's spreading disease to all corners of the field.
That’s a foul ball I don’t want to catch
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
like herpes
that sh*t will come back with you, and according to Jeffery Tambor in the Hangover, that’s the only thing that doesn’t stay in vegas
"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."
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