On Eric Gagne, and why I didn't like his signing
In yesterday's Mug I mentioned the Gagne signing and the fact that I'm not thrilled about it. That mention sparked dozens of comments on the topic, including one (thanks Jacob) accusing me of "phony-outrage." Before we go any further, let me assure you that I don't engage in phony outrage...my blood pressure is high enough without me having to fake it.
With that said, I wanted to take an opportunity to expand on my argument, with the hopes of explaining my position.
First off, let's eliminate some factors. I've seen stories over the last 48 hours noting all of the following:
- Gagne apologized to management and the fans following a poor 2008 showing.
- He bought and gave away thousands of tickets for a home game in September of 2008 to keep the Brewers sellout streak alive.
- He's a good clubhouse guy, well-liked and respected.
All those things are nice. But that's what they are: nice. They're not really relevant to this conversation, because they don't impact his ability to contribute on the field.
Meanwhile, his contributions on the field lately aren't very good. Since leaving Texas in 2007, Gagne has a 5.82 ERA in his last 65 innings (70 appearances). Replacement level pitching is typically estimated at an ERA around 4.50. Before midseason 2007, Gagne was very effective, but for the last season and a half he's been a full run and a quarter worse than replacement level.
Now, this contract is "zero risk" in a way: Gagne is due to make $1.5 million, but only if he makes the major league roster, and he's due to become a free agent on March 25 if he isn't on the 40-man roster. So, he could pitch terribly in camp and be relieased, with the Brewers not losing much at all for their trouble. But what if he doesn't?
There's an evaluation issue here. The Brewers play 26 spring training games between now and March 25, including a game on the 25th and a game against the Australian WBC team on March 5. Assuming Gagne pitches an inning in every third game over that stretch, Gagne will accumulate approximately eight innings before the Brewers have to make a decision on him. Furthermore, he won't start those games. Since he'll likely pitch somewhere between the fourth and ninth inning of eight spring training games, he will face the starters for a handful of teams and the guys fighting for a roster spot in AAA for others.
In a few weeks we'll likely start talking about the hardest job in spring training: talent evaluation. By the end of March, Brewer management will have to sit down with a list of a dozen or so players who have accumulated slightly more than half a dozen innings pitched or 40 plate appearances and determine which players get about five roster spots. In the bullpen, it's Stetter and Swindle fighting for one spot (as LOOGY), then the loser of that battle competing with Todd Coffey, Jorge Julio, Eduardo Morlan, Tim Dillard, Mark Difelice, and now Eric Gagne for the two remaining spots. Because it's nearly impossible to determine the best pitcher in this group from 8-10 innings of work, a veteran like Gagne (or Coffey, or Julio) likely gets the advantage, based on extended track record.
If Gagne gets the nod here, he could feasibly sit at the end of the bullpen all season and rack up incentives without being very effective. Gagne's deal is for $1.5 million, but he starts earning incentives at 25 appearances and could make as much as $2 million more for appearing in 60 games. Jeff noted the following in the comments yesterday:
in theory, yes, the Brewers could decide after 20 appearances that Gagne is pitching only a hair above replacement and cut him. But if he’s on the opening day roster and he doesn’t have a first half like he did last year (let’s say he has a 4.75 ERA instead of a 6-whatever and has a few impressive outings) I don’t think it’s realistic that he’d get cut to avoid the incentives. That might be smart, but in the world run by Melvin and Macha, I don’t see it happening.
Furthermore, in that scenario Gagne would tie up a roster spot that could be held by any of half a dozen other options that are cheaper and could be more effective. I'm not saying Mark Difelice would be more effective than Eric Gagne, for certain, but I can say with relative certainty that among a group containing Difelice, Coffey, Dillard, Stetter, Swindle, Julio, Morlan, Joe Bateman and Chase Wright, the Brewers certainly have at least one pitcher capable of having a good 2009 season at a fraction of what it would cost to keep Gagne. And, assuming one of said group of pitchers can produce a good season, all of them are under team control for 2010.
Finally, some will argue that there's no harm done in letting Gagne come in as a showcase for both the Brewers and other teams, since it's a long spring training (due to the WBC) anyway. That's true to a point, but the Brewers have no less than 28 pitchers in camp. Chris Capuano and Mark Rogers likely won't pitch this spring and Alex Periard is still on limited duty, but that's still 25 pitchers that need innings, , including several being groomed to start, over 34 spring training games.
Ok, that's already almost 900 words, likely more than anyone wanted to read on a non-roster invitee, so I'll stop there. But I hope I've made my point: bringing Gagne in isn't really a "no-risk" proposition, and it's likely a move the Brewers could have done without.
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66 comments
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Comments
If Gagne really is the last guy in the pen, I would rather a veteran be there than a young guy who would benefit from pitching on a regular basis and developing further.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
by cooper82 on Feb 19, 2009 2:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No more goggles, though, due to Lasik, so at least if he sets the team on fire he will do it in a less annoying fashion.
by warwick5s on Feb 19, 2009 2:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
While they were there
Did they use the laser for some facial hair removal? Because his hippyish beard was far more annoying than his goggles.
by Getting Yosted on Feb 19, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, scraggly bearded guys are always the worst relievers ...
by MooseHaas on Feb 19, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to grow a beard, grow one
But this goat around the chin while the rest of it is several inches shorter because you do shave that, but only on a once every 10 days schedule is just retarded. A man has to have standards.
And I’m willing to give a pass to anyone from the 70s. That was a decade with wrong written all over it. The beard is only the third most offensive thing in that picture, fer crissakes.
by Getting Yosted on Feb 19, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
MLB Network had a special about the 1982 baseball season on last night. It was an enjoyable watch until about the last 5 minutes, which focused on games 6 and 7 of the WS.
by Supertramp on Feb 19, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The most offensive things in that picture?
1. The baby blue jersey for a team that doesn’t have blue as one of it’s team colors
2. The chest hair sticking out of the v-neck (that’s why I wear normal t-shirt-necklined shirts)
3. The beard
4. The mop on his head
Am I close?
by jeffro53081 on Feb 19, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
1. … that doesn’t have light blue as one of it’s colors
by jeffro53081 on Feb 19, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong on a technicality
I was counting one and two as one issue, because if they knew how to design a jersey the chest hair isn’t an issue, and the mop moves ahead of the beard.
by Getting Yosted on Feb 19, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
as a proud owner of chest hair...
im not sure i can agree..
How can you not love Carsten Charles?
by grobbins on Feb 19, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not even really chest hair
It looks like some odd man patch of neck hair
by tcyoung on Feb 20, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Beats the hell out of
pre-faded baggy jeans, oversized white baseball caps, and those dang t-shirts with the gold and silver etchings all over them.
by Braunstalker on Feb 19, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you talking about
this guy’s style?
(I feel bad posting large pictures)
by jeffro53081 on Feb 19, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
god
he looks like a d-bag in that pic. what’s with the jeans???
"....si si Peeeeedro"
by trippingandy on Feb 19, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He never looks like a d-bag
"If loving CC is wrong I do not want to be right"
"If lovin’ Braun is wrong, I want to be a repeat offender"
by kirbir on Feb 20, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes,
I am afraid our boy dresses like an idiot out of uniform.
by Braunstalker on Feb 19, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is he sponsered by Affliction?
He’s ALWAYS wearing that shirt
by tcyoung on Feb 20, 2009 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His friends run the clothing line
I’m sure he wants to get them rich too
"If loving CC is wrong I do not want to be right"
"If lovin’ Braun is wrong, I want to be a repeat offender"
by kirbir on Feb 20, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can i recap?
1) gagne’s last 65 innings were bad.
2) a pitcher with proven ability at the major league level might get the nod over somebody else (likely somebody else who still has options and provides roster flexibility)
3) gagne would take innings away from guys like bateman, narveson, narron and gulin, and those few extra pitches for each guy could be the difference between them making the team and not making the team. (this is pretty dubious)
4) gagne might pitch well enough to be worth his contract.
sorry, i still don’t see the problem.
what’s happening here is you were scarred emotionally, probably booed the radio, everytime gagne took the mound. in your head, you kicked him off your team. faced with having to reconcile that you don’t like him, and the brewers might pay him again to pitch, you recoil in horror, and vehemently defend the silly assertion that offering him an incentive laden minor league contract was a bad move.
here, quiz yourself, if at the end of spring training, gagne pitched well enough to earn the last bullpen spot, would you rather it go to him, or the next best pitcher? now ask your self the same question only replace gagne with greg maddux and the same contract terms.
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Feb 19, 2009 2:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hell yeah!
Bring in Greg Maddux. And Livan Hernandez. And Rickie Henderson. And Julio Lugo. And what the hell, see if Roger Clemens is interested in another go.
I can’t believe this conversation turned into a front page article. Gagne is basically irrelevant.
by Marty McSuperFly on Feb 19, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
That would be Julio FRANCO. Although, Franco would still probably be preferable to Lugo…..
by Marty McSuperFly on Feb 19, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to enjoy psychoanalyzing me.
Why is that?
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To correct your "recap"
1) gagne’s last 65 innings two seasons were bad.
2) a pitcher with proven ability at the major league level who last pitched effectively two seasons ago might get the nod over somebody else (likely somebody else who still has options and provides roster flexibility), based on eight innings worth of evaluation.
3) gagne would take innings away from guys like bateman, narveson, narron and gulin, Coffey, Dillard, Difelice, Wright and Nick Green and those few extra pitches for each guy could be the difference between them making the team and not making the team. (this is pretty dubious)
4) gagne might pitch well enough in spring training to be worth his contract take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
There, that’s better.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
here, to answer your first question…do you see how irrational this is:
gagne might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Feb 19, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that irrational?
Let’s say Gagne pitches well in spring. Eight innings, maybe gives up a run or two, and makes the team. Then he proceeds to pitch around his CHONE or Marcel projections, so an ERA over 4 but under 4.50. That’s nothing all that special, close to replacement level, in fact, but he’ll make $2 million for it.
In the meantime, any of eight guys who could have pitched at a similar level but don’t have as much big league experience sit in AAA. Any of them could have spent all season as a Brewer for $400k.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
irrational because doesn’t this make sense?
julio might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
and this:
coffey might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
which entails this:
might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.which therefore precludes it from being a reason against signing any specific player.
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Feb 19, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
preview is your friend
apologies, let me clean that up a little…
irrational because doesn’t this make sense?
julio might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
and this:
coffey might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
which entails this:
[pitcher x] might pitch well enough in spring training to take a roster spot away from someone who’s cheaper and better.
which therefore precludes it from being a reason against signing any specific player.
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Feb 19, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Julio and Coffey aren't making enough combined to pay for Gagne, if he meets any incentives.
And, as established yesterday, I don’t expect Julio to make the team.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, last one to think about, i promise.
what if eric gagne is a better pitcher than todd coffey? what’s the best case scenario that allows the brewers to figure it out and then take advantage of it? how far from that best case scenario are they?
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Feb 19, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point, but...
I mean, teams have spring training battles all the time. If Gagne outpitches Coffey or Julio or whoever, then, well, why shouldn’t he get the job? Sure, it’s a small sample size, but that’s the nature of spring training.
I guess my only objection would be if Gagne gets the job because of Moustache’s love for veteran Canadian grit. If Gagne is outpitched but gets the job anyway, that would be annoying, because, as you mention, we’re paying more than we have to.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Feb 19, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget, he played for the rangers
Not Melvin’s time, but still….the Rangers.
by Marty McSuperFly on Feb 19, 2009 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and taking it to its logical conclusion…
that line of reasoning also precludes you from signing anyone for above minimum wage because there might be someone cheaper and better
Bring Back The Old Logo!
by jacob on Feb 19, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not "logical conclusion"
That’s “extreme interpretation.”
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
anyway, as for 3)
Gord (I think, it might have been Doug) said that because of the extended s.t. schedule (b/c of the WBC), there are more innings than usual, and that wouldn’t be a problem. I guess you can write that off as what you say when you sign a guy …but, seems like that’s been addressed.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Feb 19, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's still only so many valuable innings, though.
Cause innings 7-9 of most ST games are full of other teams’ roster filler.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
regardless of the absolute number
there are more than there are most years.
and really, the coaches are deciding based on whether he gets Tug Hulett to ground softly to second base. They’re looking at his stuff in a game situation — is his changeup deceptive? does his fastball crack 90? etc. Somehow teams make an awful lot of decisions based on pitching in the 6th or 7th inning of s.t. games.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Feb 19, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But are they the right decisions?
:-)
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Could you have a natural antipathy for Eric Gagne?
Perhaps a Gag-ne reflex?
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Feb 19, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's true.
I considered starting “Groaners Against Gagne’s Newfound Employment,” but the acronym was below replacement level.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
more like the last 1.1 seasons
He had a very good year going for texas before he got traded to boston.
by ajoconnor on Feb 19, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you consider
Potential trade value at midseason?
Now, I’m not saying that Gagne will have a great 1st half, or even make the team, but the “proven veteran” label (even with his bad last 1 1/2 seasons) combined with a decent 1st half could net us something decent come the trading deadline if it looks like we’re out of it at that point.
I see Cameron in the same position, though I’m expecting better things from him.
by Brew Angel on Feb 19, 2009 3:06 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
good point
Contenders are always looking for relievers. We could probably get a team to pay a pretty hefty price if he’s doing well.
by tcyoung on Feb 19, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto on the good point...
Also, there’s the possibility that he could achieve Type A/B free agent status again…which could net us a pick in the draft. in 2010….provided he makes the team and pitches well of course.
by TheBurningRom on Feb 19, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd assume
if he were good enough to warrant someone useful in a trade, that we’d want to keep him.
Unless we’re out of contention, something I’m not even considering at this point. :)
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Feb 19, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even if he makes the team
it’s not an exorbitant amount of money (relatively speaking). I don’t think the difference between Gagne’s salary and any of the other cheaper options is going to handcuff the team.
by John Brew on Feb 19, 2009 3:22 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I can say with relative certainty that among a group containing Difelice, Coffey, Dillard, Stetter, Swindle, Julio, Morlan, Joe Bateman and Chase Wright, the Brewers certainly have at least one pitcher capable of having a good 2009 season at a fraction of what it would cost to keep Gagne. And, assuming one of said group of pitchers can produce a good season, all of them are under team control for 2010
I think there’s a good point in there, too. Keeping Gagne means only three of those guys might not be Brewers come April. Julio has to clear waivers and could opt for free agency rather than be sent to the minors (if he clears waivers, where else would he make $1 million though?). Coffey has to pass through waivers. Tampa could take Morlan back. The rest of the guys have options remaining or aren’t on the 40-man roster anyway.
If Gagne makes the team, there’s all those guys at AAA waiting for him to pitch poorly. If Gagne pitches well, those guys are still there for 2010. I know your main objection is money, but if he makes the team he’s only guaranteed $1 million more than the other guys would get. That’s not a heck of a lot in baseball terms. If he pitches in 60 games, chances are he’ll have been worth the incentives. At worst, he pitches ineffectively while earning some incentives and makes $2 million over the minimum. Still not a big chunk of change in baseball terms. At least not enough to worry about to me.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Feb 19, 2009 4:32 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Right, but once Gagne's on the team, how bad would he have to be to be knocked off?
For examples of how poorly, try to imagine something worse than Guillermo Mota or Eric Gagne circa early 2008.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why worse?
He’s making less than ’08 Mota or ’08 Gagne. That makes it easier to swallow his contract.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Feb 19, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
But ’08 Mota and ’08 Gagne both held their jobs all season.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, because they were paid more
Julian Tavarez was cheaper and got cut after a couple weeks. I’d imagine Gagne will get more slack than that but if he’s bad, it’ll be au revoir by the end of May (before he even gets to 25 games). Or he’ll be diagnosed with some mysterious injury, land on the DL, and won’t trigger any incentives before being released later in the year.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Feb 19, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You think Gagne will bring back the Tavarez head-fake to second?
That was awesome.
by Marty McSuperFly on Feb 19, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TH reports Gagne is eye juicing with some LASIK
Also, anyone else think that DM asked Cashman if he wanted Fryer, and Cashman responded with “Well, if the price is Wright”.
Scored three times and detonated an indisputable in four visits to the batting box.
by Jordan M on Feb 19, 2009 6:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Players don’t really make the team because of their performance in spring training GAMES, so I don’t think it’s a huge issue.
it’s not like he’s (or anyone else) is only gonna throw 8 innings worth of pitches this spring.
by Mykenk on Feb 19, 2009 6:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If I hadn't already posted on Gagne twice in two days
I would’ve had to post this picture:
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He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 19, 2009 7:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
ok, it's official
just when i thought he couldn’t look any dumber….he goes and does this……AND TOTALLY REDEEMS HIMSELF!!!!!!
….not really, i think i prefer the fogged up goggles instead. maybe instead of striking batters out, they’ll just get called out from not paying attention cause the laughter hurts too much.
"....si si Peeeeedro"
by trippingandy on Feb 19, 2009 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And now we see Todd Coffey warming up
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Feb 19, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
rich garces
September 15: Not a bad little Monday
by molitorfan on Feb 21, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you 100 percent
that’s why we like blogs.. I hope to find people that are smarter than I expressing my opinions in lucid fashion. Well done.
by keephopealive on Feb 19, 2009 8:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
This really is a fairly pointless debate
At worst, Gagne doesn’t make the roster and doesn’t make anything. At best, he makes his 60 appearances and earns a whopping $2 million. $2 million dollars, in baseball terms, is really not that much. What is the Brewers 2009 payroll projected to be, $80 mil? I would guess probably a little higher than that, but for sakes of argument, let’s say it’s only $75. Meaning, even if Gagne makes his maximum contract in ‘09, that’s still only 2.6% of the entire payroll. (And that’s using a very conservative base of $75 mil.) So really, it is a very low-risk contract. I personally like it.
"You guys know me. I take a long time to analyze things."
- Ned Yost
by SunglassesAtNight on Feb 20, 2009 8:43 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
also
as a member of the team, Gagne only makes up 2.5% of the 40-man roster. 2.5% of the roster, earning approximately 2.5% of the payroll, CRAZY.
"You guys know me. I take a long time to analyze things."
- Ned Yost
by SunglassesAtNight on Feb 20, 2009 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
dude
pointless debates are what statheads do
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Feb 20, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Gange can make as much as $4.5million
As per this article $1.5 million basic plus another $3million in incentives. That would then be about 5% of the total payroll. Still I bet he needs to end up the closer to get the full amount.
by Saltire on Feb 20, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's true.
Some of those incentives are based on games finished. They top out at 60. Salomon Torres led all Brewers in GF last year, with 48.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 22, 2009 7:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs




























