A Difference of Opinion
Tonight, Adam McCalvy posted an article on Brewers.com detailing Macha's plans for the bullpen and his preference for flexibility.
Two managers, two different philosophies regarding bullpen usage. Which do you prefer?
Ken Macha's views on assigning bullpen roles:
"I will probably sit down with the bullpen guys and say, 'We've got one guy with a role here, and that's the closer,'" Macha said. "That's what I've done in my previous job, and the reason is that you might be going into the seventh inning and facing the heart of [the other team's] order. You might as well put your top guy out there in that inning because the game's on the line then."
Ned Yost's views on assigning bullpen roles:
Brewers manager Ned Yost described Guillermo Mota as his "eighth-inning pitcher" on Friday night, and he was not backing away from that stance on Saturday.
Mota surrendered hits to all four batters he faced in a five-run Rockies' eighth inning that led to a 6-4 Brewers loss.
"I've got no problem with what happened last night," Yost said Saturday afternoon. "Mota didn't walk the ballpark. We didn't throw the ball around. He got beat. It happens."
Mota, whose role was elevated to setup man when Brewers relievers Eric Gagne and David Riske went on the disabled list, fell to 2-4 and his ERA bumped up to 4.56 in 22 games.
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32 comments
Comments
You might as well put your top guy out there in that inning because the game’s on the line then.
Than the closer shouldn’t be a set role for the ninth inning. I wish teams would actually use their best reliever (generally the closer) when they are most needed, which is not always the ninth inning.
Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9
by NoahJ on Feb 22, 2009 10:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
judging by how Macha used the A's pen
he may well know that, but he doesn’t want to say, “Our guy earning $6 million isn’t our best reliever — in fact, I don’t even know who is.”
(Macha later said, “But I suspect he’s one of the guys whose initials are CV.”)
This seems to me to be the best way of smartly managing a bullpen without running into the media/player attitude issues with the pen by committee. Hide your best reliever — usually a fairly young guy who has never closed — and use him as your relief ace. Then take your 2nd or 3rd best reliever, someone named something like Strutson Heet, and anoint him the closer. Everybody’s happy, and if things work out perfectly, you can anoint a new closer every year or two and then trade him for prospects at the deadline because of his magical closer vibes.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Feb 22, 2009 11:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
now that
is a magic recipé. if you have a guy like CV who can fill that role (of the behind-the-scenes-actual-best-reliever), and a guy who’s (hopefully) good enough to face a high leverage 9th inning when it does happen, then it seems like win-win to approach it in this manner.
"Nothing is working right now with a lot of the guys. We're trying to see pitches and see what we can do. ... I'm not going to sit there and walk, though. I'll eventually find it, and hopefully we'll still be in it." -Corey Hart
by baumann on Feb 23, 2009 1:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But Claudio Vargas isn't a Brewer anymore...
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 23, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Count Vronsky?
C. Magruder scored, R. Weeks to second on balk
by alkaseitzer on Feb 23, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Tom Tango would tend to agree
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/04/17/thebook.excerpt/index.html
I hate the term closer mentality, but I think it applies here. I’m guessing Macha likes his closer to come in knowing his role. That way the closer can come to the park and get into his routine. Since coming in for the 9th inning with the game on the line is a lot of pressure, letting that pitcher get into a routine removes a lot of the other worries that come along with being a bullpen pitcher, and lets him relax.
I’ve always thought closers were completely overrated, so I can’t say I entirely agree with Macha, but I definitely prefer his train of thought to Ned’s.
by tcyoung on Feb 22, 2009 11:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You mean to tell me I can fire my cardiologist?
No more Riske of heart attack after 7th inning implosions.
Hooray!
by Safebet222 on Feb 23, 2009 8:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
im glad i read this article
ive always said we should throw our best reliever out there when we need him most, that being the 7th 8th or 9th inning. all my buddies disagree with me and think we should have clearly defined set roles like ned yost had. i cant stand clear-cut roles such as 7-9th inning guys. it depends on the situation
by BrewerBlue87 on Feb 23, 2009 11:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second...
do we have an actual competent manager? Thank God!!!
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Feb 23, 2009 11:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
it is shocking
luckily we have the spring to get used to it.
September 15: Not a bad little Monday
by molitorfan on Feb 23, 2009 7:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
and then he goes and lines up suppan to be our #1. Well that flushes that down the pipes…
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Feb 23, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll believe Suppan is #1 (whatever that's actually worth)
When he takes the mound on Opening Day.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Feb 24, 2009 6:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On MLB Network the other day...
Mitch Williams, Dan Plesac, and Jim Kaat were in studio for the last episode of “Hot Stove.” Amongst others, the topic of conversation was 300 game winning pitchers. No one thinks anyone but Randy Johnson will ever reach that milestone again. Based simply on a 5-man rotation vs. previously used 4-man rotations, one would have to agree.
But it really struck me—things are so different in baseball than they once were. Just think, if we had a 4-man rotation that went 8 or 9 innings most every game, how different would it be?
by Charlie Marlow on Feb 23, 2009 1:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Roger Clemens supposed to be the last 300 game winner?
And Greg Maddux? And Tom Glavine?
I’m convinced 300 wins is still difficult, but not unattainable. You need to be a durable pitcher on the right team to get enough opportunity, but I still think a pitcher who starts effectively in the big leagues for 17-18 years and has a couple more marginal years has a shot.
That’s not to say 50 more guys will do it, but a handful of guys per generation will do it.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 23, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You dare to question the combined wisdom
of Dan Plesac and Mitch Williams? You clearly have no concept.
by Getting Yosted on Feb 23, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitch counts, IP, etc, etc.
Everyone’s becoming more conscious about ‘wear and tear’ on pitchers.
But…17-18 years is still about 17.6-16.7 wins per year. Even if you take those ‘marginal’ years for 10 wins apiece, and at 3 years, you’re looking at 15.9-15 wins per year. Its just tough for me to see a guy sustaining that level for 18 years, plus 3 10 win seasons.
by Charlie Marlow on Feb 24, 2009 1:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Longevity
Reaching 300 wins seems to me to be more about longevity than good-ness. I mean, you have to be a good pitcher, good enough to win your fair share of 1-0 and 2-1 games. It seems like it’s more important, though, to (a) play for a team(s) with a high-powered offense, and (b) not get hurt. Being able to get guys out without a blazing fastball helps too, as does not leaving your high-powered team as a free agent when a suckier team offers you more money.
It’s why Jamie Moyer has an outside shot to reach 300 wins - Jamie Moyer! - and Ben Sheets will be lucky if he gets to 200. (It’s hard to fathom, but Hideo Nomo and Chan Ho Park might end up with more career wins than Sheets.)
Pedro Martinez is also a great example. Consider:
- In 1997, he pitched 241 innings with an ERA under 2. 13 complete games, 4 shutouts, 305 strikeouts. Yet he only had 17 wins
-instead of, say, 25, like you might expect-because he was, ta-daa, an Expo. He averages just under 14 wins/season in Montreal. - He pitches for Boston for 7 years, where if you throw out his 2001 season (where he missed half the year), he averaged 19+ wins/season.
- By the time he reaches the Mets, he’s in his mid-30s, and his body has broken down (probably from those 305 strikeouts). He’s averaged 8 wins/season over the past four years.
Obviously, you can’t assume that Pedro (214 career wins) would be knocking on the door of 300 wins if he played in Boston his whole career. But, let’s say he did, and that 2001 was his only season cut short with injuries. At this point, he’d probably be looking at 250-260 wins. If he could cobble together a few 12-15 win seasons…
Anyway, here is a list of career wins. Not a whole lot of likely candidates, after Randy Johnson, but there are some guys who can make a run at it. Johan Santana turns 30 in 2009 already, and he’d have to average 19 wins over the next 10 years to do it. CC might (that’s Sabathia, not Counsell): he has 8 more wins than Santana and is only 28, plus he’ll be pitching for the Yankees. Oswalt and Halladay need to average 17 wins/season over 10 years, but both are 31. Jake Peavy has 86 wins and is only 27.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Feb 24, 2009 7:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Based simply on a 5-man rotation vs. previously used 4-man rotations, one would have to agree.
It’d be easier to agree if guys like Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, and Johnson didn’t get their wins as part of five-man rotations.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Feb 23, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and really, a generation or two before that
these days, the max number of starts, if you are #1 and your rotation skips #5 wherever possible, is about 35 or 36.
To take an example sort of at random, look at Steve Carlton. He obviously went on three days fairly often, but he exceeded 36 starts exactly seven times in his career, for a total of 18 extra starts. He won about 44% of his starts, so he got an extra 8 wins because of different usage patterns. Not a big deal.
So yeah — winning 300 games has always been hard, is still hard, and keeps getting harder. But since WWI, it’s not like there was ever an epidemic of 300-game winners that has since disappeared. I mean, 300 wins is 22nd on the all-time list, and 5 of those guys (6 if you count kid nichols) are pre-1900. So basically, we’ve gotten fewer than one 300-game winner every 5 years this century. One could argue that the longevity effects of better medical treatment and training more than counteract the fewer starts per season.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Feb 23, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what is the average career duration now compared to, say, the 50s?
by tcyoung on Feb 24, 2009 7:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So, 4 out of 22?
I’d say the odds are still against it…
by Charlie Marlow on Feb 24, 2009 1:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, four is better than none
At least enough to doubt the no one will ever reach 300 again after Johnson statement.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Feb 24, 2009 6:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At the risk of suffering the wrath of those who don't like to talk about these things...
… I can’t help but wonder how many of the Clemens’ (and maybe only him out of that group) victories came after his career would have ended but for steroids, HGH or other PEDs. We’ll never know the answer to that, of course. The notion that one of the major (if not primary) benefits of steroids and HGH was that it could extend careers effectively beyond ages where huge dropoff in performance have been common historically. I think that’s significant in this instance because his 300th win cam after his 40th birthday. While that may not be an uncommon age to reach that statistical landmark historically, longevity and durability are obviously the biggest obstacles to hitting that number of wins. One of the many, many reasons why Clemens is such a compelling case-study for the impact of PEDs on the game is that (to my admittedly ill-informed eyes) there appears to be a statistical “trough” in his year-to-year numbers in the mid-90’s that went hand in hand with durability problems. Then, quite suddenly in my opinion, he regained his old form (and his durability) in the late 90’s while putting up another 160+ wins. I know that wins are often coincidental to a pitcher’s performance in any particular game or season rather than a direct result of that performance, but you can’t get a win if you’re not on the mound, and it seems likely to me that PEDs gave Clemens, at least, the opportunity to take the mound for a longer period of time than would have been likely without them.
Would he have done that without the benefit of PEDs? Maybe. And maybe he accomplished some or even most of that without ’em. What chafes me the most about PEDs is the guys like Clemens and Bonds and A-Rod who could have (and in the case of Bonds, would have) been HOF players without their use and yet they chose to use them anyway. They gave away their immortality, and they took away the joyful memories that (some) fans would otherwise have of them.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 23, 2009 4:03 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Clemens aside...
If Glavine and Maddux got their 300 wins by using steroids, they were using them incorrectly.
He’s not the worst pitcher ever, just the worst good pitcher.
by KLSnow on Feb 23, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
Agreed. That’s why I tried (and maybe failed) to make clear that my comments were directed only to Clemens out of the group mentioned by you and TheJay…
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 23, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In writing the lengthy post above
It’s worth looking at Pedro’s 1997 season with an eye toward PEDs. 300+ strikeouts, plus cutting his ERA in half from the season before?
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Feb 24, 2009 7:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue
They got their wins right?
by tcyoung on Feb 24, 2009 7:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers use steroids to recover faster so that they are more fresh every time they pitch.
by tcyoung on Feb 24, 2009 7:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
~interesting~
i dont think that Macha wants to forget the fact that CV is also a great multiple inning eater… he can be put in when a starter sucks it up… i know we also have McClung for that but if you think that McClung wont be in the rotation at sometime this year than you are mistaken. CV and McClung are interchangeable; both can be the set-up man and both can be starters/long relievers…
the best thing that Macha is doing is that he is leaving his options open and not comitting to anything… unlike Yost who set everthing in stone until the numbers told him to do differently… I think its smart, in a political aspect. Go Macha!
"Wisdom only works if you have the knowledge to pursue the predicament"
by j_scho on Feb 26, 2009 10:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Politics are a big part of Civil Engineering
I’m going to beat the fact that Macha is a Civil Engineer to death.
by tcyoung on Feb 26, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what uncivil engineering would look like
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Feb 26, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
destroying the team's infrastructure?
Release Braun, Fielder, Hardy..
by tcyoung on Feb 26, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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