Brew Crew Ball: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: MLB Trade Deadline: Who is available around MLB?

From Jim Caple of ESPN.com. I don't want this to turn into a war over the merits of Haudricourt and Witrado; as a newspaper reporter, I simply found this a thoughtful look at the future of baseball reporting as newspapers struggle/collapse/go up in flames.

about 1 year ago Tiny Cheeseandcorn 41 comments 2 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

This exact thing crossed my mind recently

The main problem I have with Tom H and AW is their lack of analysis, and to a point I understand this with sources to protect, and the continued access they have. We have to realize that they do serve an important function, no matter how smug or talentless they may be. They report. Think about this… bloggers rely on links. Look what KL starts off every Mug with. 9 times out of 10, its a JS link. Without those two covering the team for the JS, we’d only have McCalvy. Now as much as we admire him for being web only, what if he were the only voice doing the reporting. The fact that the JS is solvent (it is solvent, right?) and is a thing we are lucky to have because despite our criticisms, they do a damn good job.

I just sit back and root for the taser

by Hyatt on Mar 26, 2009 9:33 PM CDT reply actions  

This is a good paragraph
A newspaper reporter told me recently that he feels as if he were a blacksmith when the automobile was invented. That’s true only to a certain extent. Automobiles replaced horses as the desired method of transportation; they didn’t replace the desire for transportation. In fact, the desire for transportation multiplied due to the car. The same is true for the Internet. It didn’t replace the desire for information, as more people are reading newspapers than ever before, albeit online for free. But the method of relaying that information is being replaced. When/if newspapers are gone, people will demand to learn their information from another source. They might even (gasp!) pay for it once they realize what they’re missing.

The demand is there, but the ability to profit is just not there right now.

I still think that someday you’ll see some full-time people with journalism degrees covering teams only for a blog or independent website, whether they’re employed by a big organization like ESPN or working on their own.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 26, 2009 9:45 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree.

I think Caple even understated the demand for even the small, incremental stories, like trade rumors. The demand for immediate information about people’s favorite sports teams far outpaces the demand for any other type of information in the newspaper. In other words, the demand is not only still there; it’s insatiable.

The question is, ‘How do blogs make enough money to cover something so expensive?’ Honestly, though, I think this is one of the easier areas of journalism to replace newspaper’s functions with the web. After all, we’re already watching most games and poring through statistics on our own time because we love the subject matter so much; hardly anybody’s doing the same with attending city council meetings and poring over the city budget.

It’ll be really interesting to see what the bigger team-specific blogs (heck, maybe this one!) come up with in the next several years if this gap needs to be filled.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 27, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think one factor that's not getting considered

As newspapers shrink and fold, there will also be an increase in available ad revenue out there. If the JS folded today, everyone who advertises in the JS sports section would be looking for new opportunities to reach Milwaukee area sports fans. Obviously, there are a lot of places that money could go, but one would hope some of it would come here.

"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."

by Kyle Lobner on Mar 27, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

The most expensive portion in my eyes

Would be involving someone covering the team on the road, so why not eliminate that portion until funds can be located to support the traveling. I would imagine you could find some retired person who has as much love for the Brewers as us and have him cover the team at home. It might not be the easiest find in the world, but I would bet there has to be people out there that would do that for little to nothing. Hell, for me that would be a dream retirement… spending my afternoons and nights hanging out in Miller Park all summer, I would do it for nothing.

If nothing else this would seem like a reasonable method of getting a decent amount of the information while the ad revenue and so forth was developed that would allow the hiring of someone more extensively. Hell, as much as we may not like TH, he may be looking for something to do in a couple months/years…

BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.

by MadJimiBrewha on Mar 27, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

You could definitely find someone to do it, yes

but would that person be trained as a journalist? If you’re going to get a person to do it, they have to be able to do it well. I do think that the actual “reporting” skill is underrated— some people think that any moderately effective writer could do it, but I disagree. You’d have to find someone with a post-secondary education in journalism that is willing to take a smaller salary for what would amount to a full-time job.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 27, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who cares

Journalists have been playing up the canard that theirs is a profession, not a trade for years. They couldn’t be more wrong. The skill set of a journalist is the same skill set any one with a humanities degree picks up, and that skill set is almost indistinguishable from what you can gain from a well used public library membership.

I don’t need my plumber to have a post-secondary degree in plumbing, just enough knowledge to keep the sh!t contained and flowing in the right direction.

by Getting Yosted on Mar 27, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think being a journalist takes a little more skill and seasoning than you're saying.

But I’m a journalist, so of course I think that.

"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."

by Kyle Lobner on Mar 27, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guys you might have heard of and their college major

Edward R Murrow-Speech
Tom Brokaw-Poli Sci
David Halberstam-Bachelor of arts
Walter Cronkite-didn’t graduate college, but probably went to the library often
Cokie Roberts-Poli Sci
Chris Berman-History

by Getting Yosted on Mar 27, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, so I've wasted my life.

What now?

"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."

by Kyle Lobner on Mar 27, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Part of the allure of the journalism major for me

is that it’s not particularly specific. There’s a lot of social science/history classes and writing/communication development. Yes, you learn how to report, but there’s a much wider applicability to that type of degree instead of narrowing yourself into a specific field.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 27, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

I have a journalism degree, but managing this site is the most journalistic thing I’ve done since college. I’ve been the Communications Director for a political campaign, I’ve organized for a non profit, and I’ve worked with a media consulting firm.

"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."

by Kyle Lobner on Mar 27, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

First, panic

Then realize you are talking to a guy with history and economics degrees, so you’ve only wasted your life half as much as I did. Although I’m pretty good at Trivial Pursuit, so I’ve got that going for me.

by Getting Yosted on Mar 29, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll agree with you that

a journalism degree isn’t necessarily required to be a good journalist, as your list below begins to prove. But I’ll vehemently disagree that the profession isn’t very difficult or what I’m reading your claim as, something like “anyone smart that knows English well could do it”. There’s a difference between being able to do journalism, and being able to do it well— as we often see with a certain Journal-Sentinel reporter. I don’t think there’s some mysterious divide that makes a person with a journalism degree more capable than some others, but journalism and communication through writing is on a different tier than plumbing.

Also realize that you’re discussing this with a person who was a journalism major, and a person who will probably be a journalism major in two years.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 27, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you're underestimating the "skill and seasoning" required to be a plumber

Certainly, society didn’t put reporters up on a pedestal apart from specialized laborers until a few generations ago. And I’m not at all convinced that has been better for the newspaper industry or society as a whole.

While we’re comparing reporters to plumbers, it’s worth noting that the market values the latter more highly. Googling produces a lot of different numbers, but for general salaries, I found the average plumber at about $47k and the average reporter at $41k. There are other possible factors than skill required, of course, but there ya go.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 27, 2009 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

I don’t see why journalism and communication through writing is on a different tier than plumbing. Both are careers. Both require an acquired skill. Professionals in both industries have varying levels of skill and success. Just as there is a difference between doing journalism and doing journalism well, there is a difference between being a plumbing and being a good plumber. Both professions are also provide a service to the public.

by tcyoung on Mar 29, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Knowledge does not have to come from structured education

The subject line is really my entire point, but I’m going to elaborate anyway.

I have no doubt that being a good reporter requires some specialized skills, and that many people could not do it well. But back in the day (and this is still the case for some; I believe it’s how Joe Posnanski got started), people learned those skills basically as interns, climbing the ladder within newspapers. You wouldn’t get hired (as Witrado seems to have) to be THE BREWERS BEAT WRITER, but you’d come on as a copy boy or maybe a factchecker, or a few other things, and once you proved yourself, you’d get bigger and bigger opportunities within the paper.

This is how most industries in the world work. The more people in any given industry start preaching about how they (or more accurately, anyone who might compete with them) need specialized training, and how the people who do the job have skills that the rest of us don’t even understand, the more skeptical I become.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 27, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see what you're saying

but I do think that there is sometimes this conception that any decent writer could watch a game on TV and file a game story similar to a JS report. That might be a little bit true, but there is so much more going on than that, and it isn’t just post-game quotes. We would know a lot less about the players and baseball in general if all our game reports were filed via TV.

Plumbers v. journalists— this comparison is really useless :). Plumbers aren’t subject to the scrutiny of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people. They serve people individually. I’m not berating plumbers at all— I couldn’t do it— but I think they’re on a totally different plane— tier was a poor choice of a word. Also, with a risk of sounding elitist or something, I’d say that the overall pool of potential journalists is smaller than the overall pool of potential plumbers. I don’t think journalists should be “elevated” above specialized labor, but the nature of their job in a society so media and communication-driven brings them some attention and exposure. Part of their job is dealing with criticism and interacting with their readers. That alone is going to bring them a higher profile, regardless of the difficulty of the profession and the skills involved.

I certainly understand the market value of specialized labor— I have a lot of friends who are planning to go to technical school or a local college and enroll in programs that they’re almost ensured employment with salary levels starting at $50,000 to $60,000 a year (computer specialists and electricians, mainly). Meanwhile, I’ll have thousands of dollars in college debt and will be struggling to find reasonable employment when I graduate college, probably. That’s OK, though, it’s a lot more fun that way.

One other thing— I think if we were discussing this through the lens of a different type of reporting— law, school, politics, news— we would have different conclusions. Sports reporting, on the surface, doesn’t require the investigative reporting and interviewing skills that those areas do. That might be part of our issue here.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 27, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nope
Sports reporting, on the surface, doesn’t require the investigative reporting and interviewing skills that those areas do. That might be part of our issue here.

I disagree. This, again, is society’s elevation of “journalism” as a specialized thing. Reporting in other fields requires specialized knowledge, but of that field. I’d much rather a Wall Street Journal reporter have an economics degree and some on-the-job training in reporting than a journalism degree and some on-the-job training in economics.

(Actually, I think just about everybody would be better off with a degree in economics than a degree in most anything else, journalism topping that list. Consider this your unsolicited advice from an “elder” for tonight, Jordan :).)

And you know what, I’m going to play some more devil’s advocate. You said:

any decent writer could watch a game on TV and file a game story similar to a JS report. That might be a little bit true, but there is so much more going on than that, and it isn’t just post-game quotes. We would know a lot less about the players and baseball in general if all our game reports were filed via TV.

So we agree post-game quotes are part of the story. Can you point me to a traditional game report in a mainstream outlet and show me anything that a “decent writer” who watched the game on TV couldn’t provide, aside from the aforementioned post-game quotes?

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 27, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a fun discussion

I just decided that the game stories are a really bad example of what I’m trying to say, on top of sports journalism being a really bad example of what I’m trying to say. You’re right, a game story could be done just as well without access (partly because the mainstream type of game story usually sucks, but that’s another discussion). I don’t think you could reproduce a mainstream-type game story, though. Their model is usually something human interest, especially in the lead. They rarely just describe the game. It’s not just quotes, but stories from the players. Have you ever read a game story that just rattled off what happened in order? I think sports journalists realize that their access is what sets them apart, and they use their access as much as possible in their stories. You could definitely debate if the access-driven story or the fact-driven story is better, but I don’t think you could reproduce that traditional type of story without the access. You could write a quality story from home, sure, but not the same type/style of story.

Your top part of that post brings about the knowledge vs. skills debate. Actually, I tend to agree with you and I might pursue a double-major in college. I don’t want to narrow a field of study down too much, because I don’t want to narrow myself in. If I were running the Wall Street Journal and had to hire an applicant for a job, I’d much prefer to hire the economics major than the journalism major. Personally, I wouldn’t be able to commit to a specific topic of study, I might get disinterested with something whereas journalism has a much broader overlapping group of potential jobs. I could major in History, but there’s not to much practical application there :).

I do think you’re not giving quite enough credit to beat reporters in general, though I agree with most of what you’re saying. The work they do goes beyond those generic game stories— features, profiles, basic news and notes that we take for granted but do require some digging. I don’t think journalism is some elevated science above other disciplines, but I think it should be recognized as a field of study if you’re mixing it with a broad knowledge base of social sciences. I wish I could commit to something like economics, it’d be a good plan but not something I’d want to do.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 27, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

At some point I might dig up some game stories to see whether I agree with you

but I don’t have the desire right now.

But as to this:

The work they do goes beyond those generic game stories— features, profiles, basic news and notes that we take for granted but do require some digging.

Remember that MLB is a business, and teams want this coverage. The whole circus is arranged to help beat reporters do their jobs. I went to an Astros game a couple of years ago on press passes. After the paperwork was done, a liaison-type guy asked me if I wanted to talk to anybody in particular. I could’ve had a sit-down before the game with either manager. (I didn’t, since I’m not good at faking a purpose, and I mostly had passes so I could have good seats.)

Everybody in baseball recognizes that they have to talk to the press. Most people outside of baseball are happy to talk to the press. It doesn’t mean the job does itself. Beat reporters still have to show up, ask the questions, see Prince Fielder in a towel, and make the phone calls. But to call that “digging” seems like a stretch to me.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 27, 2009 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

And yeah, again, baseball/sports is a bad example of the whole career/industry

We’re pretty much saying the same things. Obviously I’m going to defend my potential career track and you’re going to defend your math :). Sports is a unique situation where the organizations getting covered have a lot to benefit from the publicity, in contrast to government reporting where you’re really doing a public service by investigating.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 27, 2009 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nah

I’m not letting you off that easy.

In government reporting, you have:
a) massive amounts of things happening in public. senate/house debates/votes, sessions of court at most levels, town hall meetings, etc. somebody has to show up, but they don’t have to dig.
b) tons of data being released all the time. (most government reporting is just, “yesterday’s report says…and this is what representive x has to say about it”, etc.)
c) the freedom of information act, for data is that is not automatically released.
d) tons of government representatives to want to get re-elected or re-appointed or just plain like attention, so who make themselves available to you, or at least have press secretaries and the like who have to be nice to you.

Some investigative reporting, of course, goes beyond that, and that’s why the guys who do it are the superstars of their field. But they are a small fraction of the field of “journalists” and their work is an even smaller fraction of what’s in the paper every day.

Seriously, go through tomorrow’s paper and tell me how many articles required real “digging.” Or how many are “really doing a public service.”

Then go through and tell me how many cover, directly or indirectly, subjects that “have a lot to benefit from the publicity.”

By the way, this has nothing to do with me defending “math.” Economics is not math, and you can get an undergrad degree in econ with no more math than you will probably learn in high school.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 27, 2009 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wish I could've jumped into this debate a little earlier

But I was at work “digging” into such thrilling stories as a drug stop-turned-high-speed-chase and local downtown renovations :)

I agree with Jeff in that experience and expertise in the subject at hand matters a heck of a lot more than a journalism degree.

But I also think Jeff oversimplifies reporting, both in baseball and otherwise. No, sports reporters don’t have to “dig” for much of anything, and it’s in teams’ best interests to have reporters covering them. But it’s also almost never in any athlete or coach’s best interest to tell them anything of substance, and it takes a talented, experienced reporter to draw anything meaningful out of those situations. (That’s why many current sportswriters are just plain bad at this, though I think Gary Smith is probably the best in the business in this area.)

To apply that idea to your government reporting example, Jeff, I think that the primary quality of good journalism as I’ve seen it practiced is not so much investigation as synthesis. You’re right; it doesn’t take much digging to get access to most of the information you need on a government beat. But my paper’s local government reporter is the best reporter in our newsroom not because she does more “digging” than anyone else (she does relatively little, at least in the stereotypical “All the President’s Men” idea of the word) but because she’s exceptional at identifying hard-to-spot irregularities in those easy-to-get documents, connecting them with what she already knows, and explaining them to readers. That’s a rare skill, and a difficult and time-intensive one to acquire.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 27, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

After a lengthy delay

It seems that we’re arguing the placement of journalism on the job difficulty spectrum. I think it’s slightly more difficult than you’re giving it credit for, but not too much— we’re just disagreeing over a few metaphorical meters on this spectrum.

You’ll have some people continually argue that newspapers are essential for a democratic society, but that’s not really true— the information published in the newspapers can be and is being published in other mediums. But I want the actual people giving me the information to be rigorous, thorough, unbiased, and skilled. I don’t think the job of “guy paid to find information and write about it” will really go away, but I think the “newspaper writer” job will almost entirely go away within a few years.

Finally, I’ll pretty much second Cheeseandcorn’s post above and add one factor we haven’t really brought up yet— someone who’s not trained or not being paid to gather the information has good reasons to skew the information they find towards the viewpoint they find favorable, while a professional journalist has to eliminate bias as much as possible, because the repercussions are getting called out publicly and possibly losing their job.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 28, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is what I *really* have a problem with

“while a professional journalist has to eliminate bias as much as possible”

..yeah, that’s the ideal. But look at what’s happening now. Aside from the blandest articles, anything in the national media is getting called out by somebody for bias. (I’m not talking about baseball, but think about the chorus of “east coast bias!” against virtually any ESPN.com article about the Yankees.)

This is how the post-newspaper world is going to work. People write stuff in a variety of media, readers decide whether they trust it or not, and that decision is informed to varying degrees by a chorus of pros and cons about the bias and quality of that writing.

Some of the most biased writing being nationally published these days is getting published in some of the most well-established newspapers, and nobody is losing their jobs because of it.

If you do get a journalism degree and go on to work in journalism, Jordan, I’d be very interested to revisit this argument with you in 8 or 10 years. I suspect that many of your perspectives about what journalism is in practice, and what journalists do in practice, will change by then. That’s not a criticism…one of the really tough things about deciding what you want to do is that it’s so hard to get a grip on what you’re getting into until you’re there.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 28, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I keep trying to wrap up this argument, and you keep coming back with intriguing counterpoints!

First of all, I personally have no idea if I want to “work in journalism”. I don’t know if you will even be able to work in “journalism” in 8-10 years. I know that I like a variety of social science subjects (history, psych, civics, poli sci, geography, economics) and English, and to a lesser degree some science subjects. The journalism degree I speak of would get me a lot of good background in those subjects, and instead of flailing around and trying to find one to latch onto I’d be working on a decent degree in the meantime. I think in 10 years or so a journalism major will just be someone who has interest in the subjects I mentioned and wants a skill that is applicable to a lot of different jobs— communication and language, rather than the traditional journalism student who goes to work for a newspaper. It’s already happening, Madison splits up j-school students into writing and advertising tracks right away. Who knows, I might end up working in advertising, pr, politics, or some job that hasn’t really been invented yet. Maybe I’ll professionally write, I have no idea. That’s my rationale. If I could commit to one of those topics I mentioned, I would, but I don’t want to do that at this point. Maybe, if I do plan to be a journalism major, I’ll veer off into a more specific topic in the last two years of college. I have no idea.

Some news organizations don’t even try to be neutral, yes. I guess I’m referring to the quaint city hall newspaper reporter that keeps the officials in check because they know the reporter will tell everyone if there’s any corruption going on. That doesn’t exist so much anymore, and I’m not sure it’s a good thing. Yes, there are excellent bloggers out there who do report on this stuff, but time and a lack of profit prevents almost all of them from making the full-time commitment that is necessary to do it well. And many blogs gain following by being affiliated with something, if that’s a sports team, a political party, a technology, etc. They themselves and all of their followers have usually been brought together by a collective bias, especially in political blogs. Don’t we need someone to tell us what actually happened, rather than just analyze it for us?

The issue that’s interesting to me is if the independent writers will be able to support themselves by writing online through ad revenue and voluntary donations. I think they will at some point. Then there are sites like Voice of San Diego and MinnPost that are providing the type of news and commentary a good newspaper would in a different medium, and being supported by donations and ads. I think that type of site will gain some type of following in the future. I really think people will be willing to pay for good independent reporting, whether that reporting is affiliated with a site like those two mentioned above or if it’s just a basic blogger. If anything, I’m supporting the notion that a site like this could go straight to the source and report all the news by itself in the future if the major papers collapse and those readers are forced to go elsewhere for that news.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 28, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Where to start.

“Aside from the blandest articles, anything in the national media is getting called out by somebody for bias.”

True. But in part they’re correct. Much of the traditional media has gradually abandoned all but the pretense of neutral reporting, and some have abandoned (or never espoused) even that. That has nothing to do with liberalism vs. conservativism. It’s about the responsibility those in the business of dispensing information have to the public. It’s virtually impossible to read or view political news that doesn’t include some commentary, and that wasn’t always the case. Part of what made Good Night And Good Luck such an interesting movie, for example, was its attempt to recreate how controversial it was for Murrow to criticize McCarthy so directly and remorselessly. Not just because it was unpopular but because it simply wasn’t done. Ignoring, for a moment, the historical truth that McCarthy was a drunken, lying bully who, in the grand tradition of tyrants throughout history, extended his time in power by playing on the fears of the general populace, the conversations between Murrow, his producer and the network centered on the notion that it was simply seen as inappropriate (and finanacially dangerous, of course) to repeatedly attack a sitting senator during a news program rather than simply report his activities.

Some 50 odd years later, if you’re not criticizing, you’re not trying, and you certainly are not on a TV news network. Some of the concerns of Murrow’s network and critics was either naiive or disingenous or both, since Murrow’s reports from London in 1940, as fact-centered as they were, were as devastating as any polemic could have been, and its impossible that he didn’t know it. Murrow’s argument (after the fact) was that commentary wasn’t necessary from London because simply reporting the impact of the Blitz (not to mention the sounds of the bombs and sirens) provided a basis of understanding that was impossible to miss, whereas the personal destruction of a relatively smaller group of people who had been painted (unfair as it was) with the brush of communism was more esoteric and thus the danger needed to be explained. Murrow is one of my heroes, in large part because of his attacks on McCarthy, but the logic he used to justify his actions is the same that underpins the excuses of men and women who don’t deserve to claim to be his successors.

Maybe it’s because I’m, you know, old and stuff, but it seems to me that the pretense of neutrality is important even if it remains an impossible goal in reality. The recent trend in both the traditional media and the so-called new media is often to outwardly reject neutrality and simply refer to your work as “fair” in a way that’s all but a punch line. The only reason why some of these folks don’t literally wink and smile as they claim to be “fair and balanced” say it is because they know we’re already in on the joke. (I’m not just attacking FoxNews; I’m just using that line as an example because it’s the most obvious and well known slogan available to illustrate my point.)

“This is how the post-newspaper world is going to work. People write stuff in a variety of media, readers decide whether they trust it or not, and that decision is informed to varying degrees by a chorus of pros and cons about the bias and quality of that writing. Some of the most biased writing being nationally published these days is getting published in some of the most well-established newspapers, and nobody is losing their jobs because of it.”

You’re right. And it scares the hell out of me. The upside of the fracturing of information sources from a handful of papers and the old 3 network news programs is that there simply is more information out there and more ways to access it. That’s great, in theory. It gives people the opportunity to pursue a broad array of views and weigh them against each other, providing the opportunity to “sift and winnow” in search of the truth.

Unfortunately, the reality appears to be dramatically different from the theoretical. Many, and perhaps most, are taking the opportunity to pursue the information sources that provide them with the perspective and information that confirms the views they already have and damn the rest. And once again, that is true of people who hold views all over the political spectrum. What follows when these folks who insulate themselves from the views of others eventually encounter someone who disagrees isn’t a conversation that the consumer internalizes and weighs in a search for the truth, but a shouting match in which the subjective reigns over and eventually replaces the objective. And the word “truth” becomes a punchline instead of the ultimate goal of any inquiry. That my friends, is exceptionally dangerous in a democracy. I’m not so naive as to believe that this is an entirely new phenomena, but it does seem to have become more common with the advent of the new media and its gradual merger with (or conquest of) the old.

I know I’m not talking about baseball anymore and I know i probably sound like Grandpa Simpson, but this is something I’ve spent some time thinking and writing about elsewhere. That, combined with the fact that my occupation brings me into contact with the media (both new and old) on a semi-reguarly basis left me unable to throwing in my two cents.

Rant complete.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 29, 2009 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really like this part
Unfortunately, the reality appears to be dramatically different from the theoretical. Many, and perhaps most, are taking the opportunity to pursue the information sources that provide them with the perspective and information that confirms the views they already have and damn the rest.

I think that maybe Jeff is right about what is actually happening— and I think maybe we’re right about what should be happening or what is best. And maybe this is why we’re seeing increased extremism everywhere.

I really do think that when the print newspapers all die off, there will be a market correction in a few years and people will be willing to pay money to get some quality reporting on basic issues that’s generally unbiased, especially on local issues.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 29, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

double-major

I think a double major would be a great idea. I also wouldn’t look at it as a way to avoid narrowing your major. I mean, sure, if you can’t find a journalism job right away, it could be a fall back, but is getting a college degree ever a form or narrowing yourself? Getting a second degree is a way of becoming specialized in a second type of industry. And that could help you get a job in some sort of focused journalism. For instance, Jeff mentions the value of an economics degree below. If you get an economics degree and a journalism degree, you have a much better chance of getting a job with the Wall Street Journal than somebody with just one or the other.

by tcyoung on Mar 29, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

The more I think about it

The more I think finding “a guy” isn’t the biggest expense.

I think you could find someone with adequate training to do the job who would do it for $20k annually. I’d do it for that.

Covering their expenses might cost more, though: The Brewers play 81 home games, or approximately 26-27 road series annually. That’s roughly 45-50 plane tickets annually when you factor in the trip there and either home or to the next city. And if you assume a few road off days, that’s 85 or so hotel nights, too, plus food, transportation, etc.

"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."

by Kyle Lobner on Mar 27, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is the point I was making above

Until you find the revenue streams to cover all of those road expenses, you could “employ” a home reporter. That person would basically cover half of the games with minimal expenses. This would at least be a start in the process of replacing those newspaper beat reporters when they lose their jobs, so that there is at least some form of information flow out to the public. This is just my hypothetical short-term solution to the newspapers going under and a possible method by which we could at least obtain some of the information they provide us now.

BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.

by MadJimiBrewha on Mar 27, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think most people think too literally about "replacing" traditional reporters

Here’s what’s good about internet communities like the better baseball blogs. We take raw data and we analyze it in ways that the original sources of the raw data do not or cannot. That raw data comes in many forms — statistics (box scores don’t provide a lot of analysis, but we can), broadcasts, and press conference comments. In order for BCB to get Macha to answer questions after a road game, we do not need to have a guy there.

Some other options: There could be an arrangement with other teams’ “home” reporters where we submit a handful of questions to be asked. There’s videoconferencing. There’s plain old email and chat, where Macha could do a closed-circuit broadcast answering questions from a minimum-wage team employee submitted by us.

That would limit some of the relationship building that Tom and Anthony are currently able to do, but not entirely. We’d still have a guy at 81 games, and Macha would get pretty familiar with that guy. Actually, given the way Tom and Anthony split up their job, seems like each of them does do about 81 games, and they seem to have individual relationships with important club contacts.

This term is more derogatory than it needs to be, but the value we get from beat reporters rarely goes beyond their role as “quote monkeys.” Whoever is at the pressers, whoever’s calls Doug answers, that’s who provides this sort of value. Since virtually every game is broadcast on TV (and a lot of press boxes don’t provide any better angles), this whole problem is really only about providing access to pre- and post-game interviews. That is a very soluble problem.

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Mar 27, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

These are great ideas.

I think the future for baseball reporting is actually much brighter than Caple makes it out to be. I think this essay that’s been making the rounds over the past two weeks is perfectly applicable: Johnson argues that the internet “ecosystem” has already shown it can actually be superior to the media landscape it’s replacing in the areas of technology and politics, and it’s only a matter of time before it shows this in other areas, too.

In baseball, I think we’ve already created an ecosystem that’s in almost every way superior to to old media one we’re replacing. Through blogs like this one, people get their news faster, they get far more sophisticated analysis and (perhaps most importantly) they get a thriving community along with it. All we’re missing is the firsthand insight into Doug Melvin’s mind and the personal angles from the players.

I agree with Jeff; that’s a relatively small problem to solve. We’re most of the way there, and I’m excited about our chances of making it the rest of the way when the time comes.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 27, 2009 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

At the very dark end of the spectrum, we’ll all see that ESPN will come out on top just as Taco Bell did in Demolition Man. That’s a sad thought in retrospect.

This though is a very major issue that I’m following, as it pertains to my future in this field. I definitely can see the swing from newsprint to HTML online though. It really is a matter of sponsorship, advertisement, and then marketing properly to point people to the correct areas they’ll need.

PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 minutes for hijynxing.

by Lavender on Mar 28, 2009 1:01 AM CDT reply actions  

one day, a John Spartan will rise and knock some common sence into the Society of Sports Reporting

Until then, lets just be thankful that we have pretty good reporters working for us But we should not forget that we do have a non-espin guys who will survive the eventual death of newspapers. McCalvy, or whoever takes his position eventually and the people at MLBAM will replace the traditional beat writer. This site will eventually have the relationship with Melvin and players to take over the position that Tom H currently holds. The replacement is there.

As for the importance of reporting, I spoke with a beat writer of the New Jersey nets at the time who told me basically those who are good enough to put together a sentence have the ability to be a good sports reporter. Game stories are essentially written in reverse, writing the beginning of the game at the end of the story. It was quite the conversation I had at Goulsbys that night. Regardless, it still is a necessity to get quotes that fit your story. And access to online sources is still a new thing to MLB Press departments Hell, even Mark Cuban has banned bloggers from getting press access. It is still a fight to be had, but it will eventually won by the net.

I just sit back and root for the taser

by Hyatt on Mar 28, 2009 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cuban

the way I understood it, he banned most bloggers from the locker room but not from the interview room. Pretty good compromise, I think, because a lot of guys could just start up a blog and abuse that privilege for their own fandom. A reputable blog like BCB would be a different situation, though.

The artist formerly known as jihad.

by Jordan M on Mar 28, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

well I highly doubt Tyler Barnes will issue BCB a press pass as of now

I just sit back and root for the taser

by Hyatt on Mar 29, 2009 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Reputable: having a good reputation. I doubt the reputation of this blog is very good among the people who would be involved in allowing press access.

by ol Pete on Mar 30, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Things could change quite a bit, though, if several of the more reputable organizations disappeared. For lack of an alternative as much as anything, this could become one of the more reputable Brewers news sources.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 31, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

And you'd be wrong.

Many of them are regular readers, some would even call themselves fans.

Thanks for playing, though!

Also, cheese.

by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 1, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Brew Crew Ball is dedicated to providing a friendly atmosphere for intelligent Brewer conversation. Click here to view our Posting Guide and Community Guidelines.
Start posting about the Brewers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Leopold_butter_scotch_southpark_small
Is Mark Attanasio too close?
2217_small
Most Consecutive Saves Converted to Start Career
Prince-fielder-r_small
Why not think about Fantasy Football when your Ace gets pulled IN the 3rd *UPDATE W/ DEADLINE & POLL**
Dr-teeth_small
One Pitch Away
Dsc01731_small
Questions for the locals
Small
Visiting Team
P7km_small
NBA Union vs MLB Union
Barrelman_small
Fact-checking Scott Boras
Small
Brewers as Sellers over the last 15 Years
Rickey1_small
Hang Down Your Head, Craig Counsell: A Song

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

48 - 55

9

Lost 2

59

NL Central Standings

W L PCT GB STRK
Cincinnati 57 46 .553 0 Won 2
St. Louis 56 46 .549 0.5 Lost 1
Milwaukee 48 55 .466 9 Lost 2
Chicago 46 56 .450 10.5 Lost 2
Houston 42 59 .415 14 Won 2
Pittsburgh 36 65 .356 20 Lost 1

(updated 7.30.2010 at 4:51 AM CDT)

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

BREAKING: Bob Uecker to return this weekend.

Recent FanShots

Fielder and Hart off Market
Villanueva optioned to AAA, Hawkins activated
Hawkins gets it
Jody Gerut to begin rehab assignment tonight (7/25)
Sheeter Strikes again
Cappy's first win in 3 years
Brewers/Pirates under rain delay
Venters, Cox Suspended
Brewers/Braves under rain delay, new start time 1:10 pm
Trading Prince Fielder

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

HOUSTON - JULY 24:  Pitcher Roy Oswalt #44 of the Houston Astros throws against the Cincinnati Reds in the first inning at Minute Maid Park on July 24 2010 in Houston Texas.  (Photo by Bob Levey/Getty Images) +13 updates

Done Deal: Roy Oswalt Traded To Phillies, Will Make Debut Friday Night In Washington

Washington Nationals' third base coach Pat Listach shakes Adam Dunn's hand who rounds third after hitting a solo home run during the eighth inning of a baseball game against the Atlanta Braves, Thursday, July 29, 2010, in Washington. (AP Photo/Drew Angerer)

MLB Trade Deadline: Where Does Your Team Stand As Saturday Approaches?

Philadelphia Phillies' Cody Ransom, left, celebrates with Greg Dobbs (19) and Placido Polanco after Ransom scored on a single hit by Wilson Valdez against the  Arizona Diamondbacks to win the baseball game in the 11th inning Thursday, July 29, 2010, in Philadelphia. The Phillies won 3-2. (AP Photo/H. Rumph Jr)

Phillies Complete Sweep Of D'Backs With 11th-Inning Win

More from SBNation.com >


Moderators

U8xcikxxuei8lvi_small roguejim

Newavatar_small Kyle Lobner

2217_small TheJay

Communist_party_small Jordan M

X1pxoywqu4sjf73f7drxq2lmqys7mzsyx7pa9necepiffk_ewcuwmuazb-o17ukmbriclcdkn4lk-4xposaawiq4j8hzdsccpjwatqpz2o2p-i0nnqjlyt7pmytaycsaknszvaktpshtcu9sjle1qchlw_1__small NoahJ

Picture_069_small Nicole Haase

Hulk_buddy-icon_small Fatter than Joey

Contributors

Tongue__small kirbir

Hikaru_50_small morineko

Dsc01174_small BrewHaHeather

Anon-md_2__small Rubie Q