Geeking out on Suppan as "#1 starter"
It's official: Suppan is starting on Opening Day.
So, at least for a little while, Suppan will line up against other teams' #1 starters, and our #1 starter (presumably Gallardo) will go against guys further down in their teams' respective rotations.
This has generally provoked consternation--after all, Suppan is no one's ideal #1 starter, even for the {choose one: Royals, Pirates, Nationals, Orioles}.
However, my intuition told me this might be a smart move. I haven't really thought through the comparison, but it's similar to the somewhat counterintuitive finding that inconsistent starters are better than consistent ones, if we're comparing guys with average performance.
So I figured I'd drastically oversimplify the situation and run a monte carlo simulation to see what happens.
I'm going to walk through it step by step, but if you don't care about the process, just skip down to the boldface clause below.
First, let's assume that other teams line up their rotations in the typical fashion, and that our rotation lines up 5-1-2-3-4. (It doesn't matter at all whether I have the right order of 1-2-3, as we'll see in a moment.) Thus, every five games will look like this:
(Brewers SP vs. Opponent SP)
- game 1: #5 vs. #1
- game 2: #1 vs. #2
- game 3: #2 vs. #3
- game 4: #3 vs. #4
- game 5: #4 vs. #5
Next, let's come up with a distribution of possible outcomes. Again oversimplifying, let's pretend every #1 starter is equal, every 2, 3, 4 starter is equal, and every 5 starter is equal:
- #1 starter: equal chance of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 runs. (3.00 ERA)
- #2, 3, 4 starter: equal chance of 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 runs. (4.00 ERA)
- #5 starter: equal chance of 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 runs. (5.00 ERA)
Notice we're ignoring the effect of the bullpen. While those ERAs may be in the ballpark, having the same bullpen every night is going to bring the end result closer together. We're going to ignore that, because I don't want to write more than 30 lines of code.
From here on out, it's simple. We're going to go through the 5-game sequence listed above, randomly pick one of the five possible outcomes for each of the two pitchers, and see who wins. (Of course, there will be a lot of ties -- in those cases, we'll award half a win to each team.)
Running through the sequence 1 time (or even 1,000) doesn't give us a very good picture, since the rotation sequence doesn't have a very strong impact, and in a small number of runs, the results could simply reflect good or bad luck.
So I ran through the 5-game sequence two million times. In both the first million and the second million (the first million, of course, was the hardest), the team that used the #5 starter in game 1 won about 50.8% of the time.
Of course, if these hypothetical rotations matched up in the typical 1 vs. 1, 2 vs. 2 fashion, each team would win exactly 50% of the time.
My friends, Macha is crazy like a fox.
As noted, I've drastically simplified. Of course 2, 3, and 4 starters aren't equal, and of course no team will stay exactly on schedule all season long. (Even if they did, their 5th, 10th, 15th, etc., games wouldn't necessarily match up with ours.) Not every team has 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 starters equal to ours. And of course, the Brewers will not give up exactly 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 runs in equal numbers of Suppan's starts.
But the simple exercise gives us some insight into the result of the more complex real-world scenario.
The one thing I can think of that would negate the benefit would be the possibility that the "true" #1 (Gallardo) might end up with one or two fewer starts. That might not be the case (depending on off days), and it might be ok (if Gallardo's innings were to be limited anyway). But 50.8% probably means only one or two extra wins over the course of the season, and one fewer Gallardo start in favor of Suppan could well mean the opposite.
2 recs |
54 comments
Comments
I ran the numbers
If we had 9 LaPortas and 5 Suppans, we’d win 98 games, give or take a game.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 2, 2009 9:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The ninth LaPorta is managing?
Or did we move back to the AL?
By the way, congratulations on Villanova (if you like Nova, that is).
jeff: but i shudder to think of the bullpen analogy to sending the runner
by battlekow on Apr 3, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 9th LaPorta
does the Mike Maddux job every few innings to check in on Suppan.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 3, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've thought about this at times
If you give yourself in advantage in 4/5 games and give yourself a big disadvantage in 1/5 games, I’d think they’d come out about even— and 50.8 proves that, giving a slight advantage to the 51234 alignment. In any case, it’s not worth complaining about too much, I agree. I wonder what the totally ideal sequence would be, or what would happen if you did something like 32154 or 54321.
The artist formerly known as jihad.
by Jordan M on Apr 2, 2009 9:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think 54321
Would be .500
Interested to see what 32154 would be
The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws.
by Kyguy922 on Apr 3, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the given parameters, all 5xxxx result in 50.8% and all xxxx1 in 49.2% except for 5xxx1 where both effects cancel out and you get 50. All remaining sequences also result in exactly 50.
by Zeyes on Apr 3, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your data further supports the idea that pitching rotation doesn't mean anything
But I wonder what the impact would be on the offense if they were going out there every 5 games with Suppan facing the other team’s ace. I feel like there would be a lot of giving up before the game begins.
by tcyoung on Apr 2, 2009 10:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As long as he bats 8, I don't care who's pitching
"You guys know me. I take a long time to analyze things."
- Ned Yost
by SunglassesAtNight on Apr 2, 2009 11:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This reminded me of lineup stacking in high-school tennis
I found this reference to “stacking” on the Web site for the North Carolina high school athletics association:
Players shall be ranked in order of ability, the best player on the team playing at the #1 position, the second best at #2 and so on through all positions. In case of injury or sickness, all players must move up. … STACKING YOUR LINE-UP IS NOT ALLOWED AND IS CONSIDERED CHEATING.
by MooseHaas on Apr 2, 2009 11:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is terrible
Suppan is so awful that he’s broken mathematics.
by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 3, 2009 5:42 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
darn
math was on our side
September 15: Not a bad little Monday
by molitorfan on Apr 3, 2009 6:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
apparently I had no concept
Suppan is a game winner, he wins games.
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Apr 3, 2009 7:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Most guys who make the majors two years after HS graduation are
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Apr 3, 2009 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to be that guy but...
since the model you simulated is entirely deterministic and the components aren’t terribly complex, isn’t the Monte Carlo simulation somewhat of an overkill? To wit:
Games 3 and 4 are a toss-up since starter types 2-4 are completely identical, so that’s a 50% winning percentage in 40% of your games.
Games 2 and 5 are functionally identical because the run distributions for each pitcher are just shifted upward by the same amount. Since all outcomes are equally likely, you get a cross-matrix of 25 possible pairings of outcomes, each occuring 4% of the time. For those matchups, the first team would win 17 times, tie 4 times and lose 6 times. So that’s 68% in another 40% of your games.
Same thing for Game 1, where the run distributions yield 3 wins, 3 ties and 19 losses for the first team. 18% in the remaining 20% of your games.
.5*.4 + .68*.4 + .18*.2 = .508
by Zeyes on Apr 3, 2009 8:07 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
you are correct
monte carlo may be overkill, but it was easier for me last night than thinking that through :).
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and I forgot the real reason I set it up as monte carlo
it crossed my mind to un-simplify some of my simplifications, maybe add some randomness to the quality of the opposition starters, or replace the runs-allowed distributions with something more realistic. so I wanted to have the core code written.
but I don’t think I’m that interested :).
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
assuming
Suppan is equal to Lincecum, I like our chances.
by James Stanley Cocanower on Apr 3, 2009 12:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's funny.
But I think you missed the point.
by tcyoung on Apr 3, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
JSC missed a point?
get out of town!!!
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Apr 3, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
still bitter
a week later? Yikes.
I got the point. I had to stare at my Ivy League law degree for a while, but I managed to figure it out eventually.
Where’d the sense of humor go around here? Nothing’s funny unless its a joke at Witrado’s or TH’s expense? Lighten up gang.
by James Stanley Cocanower on Apr 3, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose our senses of humor are slightly different
Que sera sera.
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Apr 3, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also funny to laugh at Sackmann
And it’s not ok to encourage roguejim’s punning.
In case anyone was taking notes.
by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look, hey, over here!
Team KOREA!
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kim-jacked
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Apr 3, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry
There’s no way to accurately project the mandatory 2 years of military service. All of Korea must be banned from MLB until Bud Selig is named El Presidente di Tutti Capi of the South Korean Coast Guard.
by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 3, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had the same general thought about likely losing our first game , but giving ourselves a lightly better chance in the next four games. Zeyes was correct to point out that games 3 and 4 are a wash.
If I were to try to simulate it I would assume that
- has a 3.00 ERA
- has a 3.40 ERA
- has a 3.80 ERA
- has a 4.20 ERA
- has a 4.60 ERA
As an aside, I think a #2 start is what we are really missing.
by grant76 on Apr 3, 2009 1:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I tried the monte carlo
with 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5 — same idea as yours, just rounder numbers.
this time, the team that started with their #5 guy came out at 51.6%.
I’m frustrated, because I think I have a good grasp of why this is the case, but I’m having a hard time putting it into words. Basically, going 5-1-2-3-4 means you punt the first game in exchange for an advantage in the next four. Every .5 run edge isn’t identical — it’s more valuable to have a .5 run edge in four separate games than a 2 run edge in 1 game. You can only win that 1 game once, no matter how many runs you win by.
If one were inclined to really test this, one could take an actual season, look at what starters the Brewers went up against games 1 – 162 and those starters’ actual performances over the course of the season. Then take the run distributions of the starts of our starters, and see whether going 5-1-2-3-4 rather than 1-2-3-4-5 would’ve meant more actual wins.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, instead of waiting, do the same thing for last year and then manipulate the Brewers' 2008 rotation ex post facto
jeff: but i shudder to think of the bullpen analogy to sending the runner
by battlekow on Apr 3, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's actually what I meant
(though not limited to the ’08 brewers)
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 3, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's April, Jeff!
My head is in the clouds! I can only look forward.
jeff: but i shudder to think of the bullpen analogy to sending the runner
by battlekow on Apr 3, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the effect is also dependent on where your pitching is compared to the overall league levels..
Compare the following:
2.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 3.5
3.5 vs 4.0
4.0 vs 4.5
4.5 vs 5.0
and
4.5 vs 3.0
2.5 vs 3.5
3.0 vs 4.0
3.5 vs 4.5
4.0 vs 5.0
In that case you may well be giving up more in the first game than you’re gaining in the other four, because in the first game you’re going through both areas where the marginal effect is greatest (from half-run up to even and from even to half-run down, and beyond), and your gains are all in an area where the curve has already started to flatten.
by Zeyes on Apr 4, 2009 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct
In the first scenario, the better-pitching team wins 59.97%; in the second, it’s down to 59.22%.
I will say though, that my run distribution of 2, -1, 0, +1, and +2 may be too much oversimplication for the task now - it would be better (and probably pretty easy) to assume a normal distribution and a standard deviation of 1 run and pick runs allowed that way.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 4, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
grr, strikethrough makes me angry
-2, -1, 0, +1, and +2 may be too much oversimplication for the task now
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 4, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you impersonating the Incredible Hulk just then?
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 4, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretty easy indeed
I changed it so that the run distributions reflected the normal distribution with standard deviation of 1. In that case, both scenarios you suggest gave the better-pitching team about 63.8% of the wins. The standard rotation order has a very slight edge — a few hundredths of a percent.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 4, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think it would bea normal distribution?
I’d be curious to see the ERA’s of each team’s top 5 starters put out, and see how many of them make a normal curve.
by tcyoung on Apr 5, 2009 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I have no idea
keep in mind, though, that for the purposes of this exercise, we’re talking about “runs allowed in [starter’s] starts,” which I would guess is a little less variable than the starter’s personal results.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 5, 2009 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Pedro?
At what price will the Brewers serious start considering getting into the Pedro race (not that we can call it much of a race)? Looper has shown next to nothing. Absent a move for Peavy (Escobar for Peavy straight up a la CC-LaPorta), how can we not be more concerned about the starting pitching? Merely seeing the words “Suppan” and “#1 starter” in the same phrase, sentence, etc. is stomach churning. As a Wisconsin native living on the East Coast, I’m finding it harder and harder to defend the Suppan jokes.
by Applekanth on Apr 4, 2009 10:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't defend them
The point is that Suppan doesn’t have to be really good for us to compete this year. We all no Suppan sucks. Tell you East Coast “friends” that the rest of our team so good and so deep that Suppan doesn’t matter.
by Oakland Brewer Fan on Apr 4, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
So long that Suppan can match last year’s meager performance, we should be OK. It’d be nice, though, if he could do a little better. :)
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 4, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Escobar for Peavy straight up a la CC-Laporta"
It was not just Laporta for CC. We also gave up a pitcher who is on the Indians big league roster (Zach Jackson), maybe our best OF prospect other than Laporta (Michael Brantley), and a reliever who was named the 8th best prospect in the pioneer league by Baseball America (Robert Bryson).
So if you want to do it like the Sabathia deal, it would look more like Escobar, Cain, Gulin(?), and a low-minors reliever with decent upside. But than, Peavy is under team control for more time than CC, so the Padres could make a case to ask for even more. To which I firmly say no.
If it were Escobar for Peavy straight up, I have no idea how I would feel about that though.
Eric Gagne DL time: May 23-June 29 Brewers record in that span: 20-9
by NoahJ on Apr 4, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pedro is still out there
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be whiny or anything. The point is just why has there been zero talk about going after Pedro (except some interview with Macha in the Boston Globe a couple weeks ago)? Say we can get him down to $3M + incentives, how can we pass that up?
by Applekanth on Apr 4, 2009 11:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Because he's old and injured
There probably isn’t much interest because he’s 37 years old and hasn’t pitched a full season since 2005. Plus, his arm has taken a lot of abuse over the years.
I guess with salaries pretty tight, no one’s willing to take a chance on a pitcher who is all but guaranteed to break down at some point during the season.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Apr 4, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and...
…it sounds like Looper already pushed the payroll to the breaking point.
and…if pedro is healthy right now, there isn’t room in the rotation for him, and is pedro going to sign somewhere he has to go to the bullpen for a while? or would the brewers send suppan or looper to the ’pen for a while?
I’m actually surprised no one has pulled the trigger on pedro yet — there are an awful lot of bad SPs with jobs right now.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 4, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WBC
In limited time at the WBC, Pedro looked pretty good. I’d be surprised if someone doesn’t snap him up, unless he’s asking some ridiculous amount of money. Even then, a contract with a lot of incentives would probably be worth it for just about any team. And I’m thinking the Brewers could send Looper back to the pen if they worked out a deal with Pedro.
by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 4, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last I read
Pedro is asking $6MM + incentives. Depending on the incentives, the last season he was worth that was either ’06 or ’05.
The team that makes sense to me for him is the Royals — they’ve got absolute garbage in the #4 and #5 spots, but they have enough decent young players and high-upside guys that, if everything breaks right, they might just might make things interesting.
Given his injury/ineffectiveness issues for going on three years now, I’d need something like a Glavine deal to get me interested — $1 or $2MM base with plenty of incentives. I’m happy to spend money on him if he’s out there and pitching reasonably well, but I don’t want to spend another $6MM+ just to have him throw 28 good innings, like he did in 07.
Also, cheese.
by Jeff Sackmann on Apr 4, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the Royals
That’s good thinkin’. In additional to whatever quality pitching they get from him, they’d actually get some mention on SportsCenter periodically.
by Marty McSuperFly on Apr 4, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They already have one gamble with Ponson
And he was signed on a minor league deal. I think that Pedro would probably be better than him but is it going to be worth $5+ million extra?
I agree with the $1/2 million idea but Pedro does not seem to think he is worth as little as that.
It will be interesting as the season goes on as to which team that, having suffered a couple of injuries to starters, decides that Martinez is a better replacement than anything they have in the minor leagues.
by Saltire on Apr 4, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beyond the question of whether he’d actually be worth it – what makes you think we’d be the only team in the running for Pedro at that price? The reason he hasn’t signed a $3m contract yet isn’t that 30 MLB teams are too dumb to do it, it’s that he’s asking for significantly more and has shown no signs of relenting on that.
by Zeyes on Apr 4, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice breakdown
… It’s kind of what I was thinking a little while ago with the Earl Weaver “get lucky” scenario where if you play the scrubs in one game, you hope to get lucky in that game while improving your overall percentage of success in the others.
All you did here was quantify my love.
My non-embarrassing thoughts on the Brewers:
Two Fisted Slopper
by nmc on Apr 5, 2009 8:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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