Want to make a trade? What are you willing to give up?
by KLSnow on Jul 23, 2009 12:05 PM CDT
in News
94 comments
At least five times a day I hear from someone who really wants the Brewers to make a move and pick up Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee. "This team is one starting pitcher away from contention," they say. "Make the move."
The problem is, this team is also one large, minor-league gutting trade away from spending the 2011-2013 seasons in full-out rebuilding mode. A package to get Roy Halladay would almost certainly include two of the three of Manny Parra, Mat Gamel and J.J. Hardy or Alcides Escobar, and wouldn't leave the Brewers any payroll flexibility for 2010 to fill impending holes at catcher or center field. Cliff Lee is a slightly less valuable pitcher but also has a slightly more affordable contract, meaning the Indians will probably want as much or more for him.
We went over this last year around the time of the CC Sabathia trade, but don't confuse last year's situation with this one. Last year, the Brewers traded Matt LaPorta and (eventually) Michael Brantley, but the organization was deep enough to remain viable after their departures. This year, the cupboard isn't as deep down on the farm. Follow the jump for a look at the 2009 seasons of the Brewers' top 11 prospects, as rated in our Community Prospect Rankings this spring.
1. Alcides Escobar. Almost certainly untouchable. Any move involving him would leave the Brewers desperately low on internal options at shortstop when J.J. Hardy becomes a free agent following 2010.
2. Mat Gamel. The odds-on favorite to start at third base next season. Gamel's bat is big league ready and may be needed to help the team yet this season. Probably untouchable.
3. Jeremy Jeffress. Suspended until early next season. Not a candidate to be traded, and would have pretty low value even if he was.
4. Angel Salome. Probably the highest rated moveable part. After missing most of spring training and getting off to a slow start in Nashville, Salome hit .315/.354/.511 in June and is hitting .278/.325/.404 overall. He could feasibly be seen as a trading chip, but he also could be needed to replace Jason Kendall, who will be a free agent at season's end.
5. Brett Lawrie. The 2008 1st round pick is the fastest rising prospect in the Brewer system. After moving to second base this spring, he's hitting .362/.348/.456 for Wisconsin, and a promotion to Brevard County is probably coming soon. He probably has the highest upside in the current farm system, won't turn 20 until January and could feasibly start 2010 in AA. If I ran the front office, he'd be untouchable.
6. Jonathan Lucroy. Probably a better defensive catcher than Salome, but not as close to being big league ready. Lucroy is hitting .244/.366/.376 in AA, with encouraging plate discipline (57/44 BB:K in 351 PAs). If the Brewers are confident Salome can stick at catcher, then Lucroy could feasibly be moved. With that said, having depth at catcher is a nice luxury.
7. Lorenzo Cain. Seen before the season as the possible heir apparent in center field, Cain is having a difficult and unlucky 2009. He's missed significant time with a torn knee ligament and has hit just .202/.320/.298 between Arizona, Wisconsin and Huntsville. He could bounce back strong and make us all forget about his struggles, but his value probably isn't exceptionally high right now.
8. Taylor Green. Green improved his value as much as any Brewer farmhand in 2008, having a nice season with Brevard County and a good showing in the Arizona Fall League before leaving early. Then he got a late start in 2009 due to a wrist issue, and was DL'ed again with a rib cage injury after returning. Green is still hitting when he plays (.305/.377/.439), but has appeared in just 52 games this season. If Gamel sticks at third base he could be expendable, but he'd also be a nice bat to keep around.
9. Jake Odorizzi. Odorizzi is 19 years old and pitching for the second season in Helena, where he's posted a 3.71 ERA in 26.2 innings and struck out 17 while walking just five. He's a nice young pitching prospect, but we may have overrated him at #9, and he's still a very long way from big league ready.
10. Cole Gillespie. Cole was already dealt in the Felipe Lopez deal.
11. Cutter Dykstra. After a brief stint in Wisconsin this spring, Dykstra was sent back to Helena to transition to second base, and hasn't hit well there either. He's hitting just .202/.323/.292 between the two levels this season, and his value has dropped considerably.
There are some rising stars behind these guys (Caleb Gindl, Evan Anundsen and Cody Scarpetta come to mind), but all three are at high-A or lower.
So, as you can see, if Escobar and Gamel are untouchable (and Lawrie also should be), and you factor in the present value decreases of Lorenzo Cain, Taylor Green, Jake Odorizzi and Cutter Dykstra, plus the fact that Cole Gillespie is already gone, you're left with a Brewer farm system that doesn't have a whole lot left to give away, and not much behind them to replace what may leave.
So what do you think? Are you prepared to give up what it would take to land Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee? If so, what would you offer?
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What does Prince bring back?
If you fear the ‘years in the wilderness’ scenario, shouldn’t we look at what Prince is bringing back when he is dealt after the 2010 season? Its not like the Brewers are keeping Prince thru 2011 and letting him walk for two draft picks.
This may be heresy, but I wouldn’t be opposed to sending Prince+ to the Jays for Halladay and Overbay. I just don’t know how much that + would need to be.
by Getting Yosted on Jul 23, 2009 12:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter what pitcher you get in return
This team is not a viable contender without Fielder (at least not this season).
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
by SRB on Jul 23, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm
I would put Prince’s value at approximately $26 million. Kind of in between Halladay and Lee. Thats with 2 more WAR for the year (3 for overvalue) and 4.6 and 4.0 for the next two years).
If they dealt Fielder right now, and recieved above value, they could probably land a top 10 prospect, or 3 or 4 really good B level prospects including pitchers to restock the system.
by backtocali on Jul 23, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
One year of Mark Teixeira nets the Rangers the Braves’ top two prospects (at premium positions) plus the #41 pick in the 2005 draft(a pitcher) plus their 3rd rounder in 2003(another pitcher), while two and a half years of Prince Fielder would get a top 10 prospect if the other team overpaid. That sounds about right.
by Getting Yosted on Jul 23, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2.5 years..
If prince was traded before next Friday. I have a feeling it wasn’t in the plan for the Braves to flip Teixeira after a year either…but their fortunes last year ended up forcing their hand.
Also, defensively…Teixeira >>>>>> than Prince….very much so.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offensively, Prince>>>Tex.
Tex has zero seasons with an OPS above .965 in his seventh full season. Prince is working on his second over 1.000 in his fourth full season.
Fielding Runs above average per 1,250 innings:
Tex’s 1B career by year: -1.9, 5.3, 7.5, 3.2, 3.1, 15.6
Prince’s career by year: -13, -9.6, -3.1
Not sure what the numbers are this year, and not sure how to take the spike by Tex last year. Is it a fluke and he is an above average 1B, or did he really improve by 400% in one year and he is one of the best 1B playing the game defensively? But I think the numbers back up what my eyes tell me about Prince, that he is slowly working his way towards being an average defensive 1B. I think who is the better package comes down to which number is Tex’s true talent level on defense.
by Getting Yosted on Jul 23, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
If you look at more than just OPS (like OPS+ for instance which is park adjusted), you’ll see that Prince isn’t >>>> than Tex. They’re fairly even. In fact, if you compare just their complete seasons (which doesn’t include ‘09 since it’s not over), Big Tex has better offensive numbers. If you compare their first 3 full seasons, they’re pretty much the same player, though Fielder gets out slugged by Tex. Tex has also shown to be very consistent hitter over the years…something Fielder hasn’t shown yet, but hopefully will.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might want to do some research before responding
In 2007 Saltamacchia, Andrus and Harrison were all B graded prospects by John Sickels. Their salaries were approximately the same, if not exactly the same, and his WAR numbers are almost identical, except that he had a +6 number last year and as was mentioned is much better defensively. If you want to run an analysis and give Fielder a +6 for next year go ahead. 4.4 is still pretty dang good. Its all star level.
I do mention they probably land 3 or 4 really good B level prospects, and when I say “top 10” I mean top 10 in the league, like a Jason Heyward type….Sorry if I was not clear, but that evaluation is probably pretty close.
by backtocali on Jul 23, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While you're handing out expert opinions...
… what do you think of our SS prospect, Yunel Escobar?
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
More Ted please, thank you.
battlekow: Bill is having an oppo-gasm
by Michael M on Jul 23, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, prince isn't staying after 2010 anyway
I think that the brewers should think about trading prince right now. Does anyone think that a fielder/hardy/hart for halladay/rios trade is good? I personally think this trade would work for both teams, I only see salary being the concern for the brewers. But, think of not only the rest of this season, but next as well. That gives us an outfield of; Braun, Cameron, and Rios, an infield of; Counsell/Gamel, Escobar, Lopez/Weeks, and McGehee, and a starting rotation of; Halladay, YoGa, Suppan, Looper, and Bush/Parra.
Just a thought…
by DelArroz on Jul 23, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heck no
I realize we need pitching, but it’s tough to see the Crew contending next year without Prince. I’d prefer getting lower-level pitching this offseason by trading Hart/Hardy and keeping Prince around till the end of 2010.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 23, 2009 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so, never be a contender with prince on the team.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't the Brewers contending now?
Granted, they’re a pretty average team and we’re all frustrated with how poorly they’re playing, but I fully expect them to be in contention next year. If we get a mid-rotation type starter back from a Hart or Hardy trade, that would go pretty well with Gallardo and a (fingers crossed) better Parra.
I know we should shoot higher than just making the playoffs, and I want a better team than what the Brewers are now, but so much of the playoffs are a crapshoot—all you can do as a GM is get your team in, set it up as well as you can for the amount of money you have, and hope for the best.
I’m just not crazy about trading our best player a year and a half before we have to, even if it would mean getting Halladay in return.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 24, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
Cameron, Lopez, and Counsell are all free agents at the end of this year….as is Looper if his option isn’t picked up.
Also, how does that deal work for the Jays? They’re asking for a shortstop of the future and pitching….not a shortstop with one year of arbitration left…Kentucky’s version of Jeff Francour…and Fielder, who will be expensive after 2010….when they won’t be able to afford him because they’ll still be paying Vernon Wells. They’re trying to dump salary….they won’t want players they’ll have to pay or lose after next season.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reality is
a small market team (if we can still call them that with consecutive seasons of $90 mil+ payrolls) will probably have to spend some time in rebuilding mode. Honestly, I would trade 2-3 years of being the Pirates for one trip to the World Series.
Unfortunately, I don’t think the makeup of this team puts us in a postion to sacrifice our future for a real shot at going deep in the playoffs.
Another issue I see is if we did go out and get Halladay or Cliffly it would be immediately compared to the CC deal. The results of the new pitcher would be lined up against CC’s last year and if they don’t match (which they probably won’t) the deal may be considered a failure, even though it wouldn’t neccesarily be one.
It is what it is.
by coolig on Jul 23, 2009 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't like trading any of them at this point
I don’t think this is the year to make this push and raid the farm system. The plus is both Lee and Halladay would be around next year, but our trajectory right now as a team isn’t good.
A big move like this should be made to win the World Series, not just make the playoffs. We’ve got the playoff monkey off of our backs, and CC gave us a shot last year to win it all when we made the trade.
Let’s ride this season out. We have a strong nucleus for next season and let’s keep all this ammo for when we can make that push for a championship, not just the playoffs.
by Cervercero on Jul 23, 2009 12:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We have a strong nucleus for next season?
How is next years projected team significantly better than this years?
We can’t expect the rest of the division to completely suck next year like this year too, can we?
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is next years projected team significantly better than this years?
Well, position by position:
C: Unknown. Salome could replace Kendall, split time with Kendall or sit behind Kendall.
1B: Fielder is back unless traded.
2B: Rickie Weeks is back for a presumable full season, instead of the Counsell/McGehee/Lopez mishmash.
3B: Mat Gamel plays full time instead of the platoon.
SS: Hardy or Escobar
LF: Braun is back
CF: ?
RF: Hart is back.
So the potential improvements on offense are at second and catcher, minus the potential loss in center.
As for pitchers, Gallardo, Parra, Looper, Suppan and Bush could all be back. So they’re not any worse off there. In the bullpen (unless I’m mistaken) Coffey, DiFelice, Stetter, McClung, Chris Smith and Villanueva should all be back.
"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."
by KLSnow on Jul 23, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right. I see it as pretty much the same team, which, as it stands right now, isn't exactly the strongest.
And that’s assuming everyone is healthy, which won’t happen.
It’s not “significantly better,” it’s pretty much exactly the same.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
You also typically assume some improvement in young players.
Gamel should be a little better than the current production at third, Weeks should be much better than the mess at second, Hardy should outhit a weak 2009 performance (if he’s here), and Parra shouldn’t have another mid-season meltdown.
"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."
by KLSnow on Jul 23, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Typically, you're right...
But Hardy & Hart this year have me doubting that they’re going to get much better.
And I hope that 2010 is the year Manny stops having melt-downs, I have to admit, they’re a tad annoying.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're underestimating Weeks' impact on this team when he was playing well early this year.
Significantly better is a hard thing to say with so many unknowns, but I think Weeks at 2nd and Gamel at 3rd (barring a trade) is a good start.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 23, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unsure...
I’m not sure if you can expect Weeks to come back and play like he was before he went onto the DL. Look how long it took him to come around after the last time he had this surgery on his other wrist.
I think the “mishmash” is over. Lopez is the full-time starter at 2B for the rest of this season with McGehee playing 3B. Speaking of which… it’ll be interesting to see what the team decides to do about McGehee next season. He’s proven that he should be starting, but where? If Weeks does come back at full-strength, who do you put at 3B… Gamel or McGehee? How about shifting Hart to CF and putting Gamel in RF, so McGehee can stay at 3B?
by sjlee on Jul 23, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see McGehee as next years Counsell
probably getting a few starts a week at 2nd, 3rd, OF, (not sure if he can play SS), but not a “full-timer” per se.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed..
He probably becomes the super sub next year.
Hart in CF is a TERRIBLE idea btw.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Hart should be in RF or dealt.
While the move to CF is somewhat attractive because it gives them a chance to land someone more productive offensively in RF, I’d like to think we could land someone better defensively at that position, even if he has a slightly lower OPS than Hart will.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 23, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gonna trade for one? I'll pass on all of these guys, TYVM
Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (30)
Rocco Baldelli (28)
Marlon Byrd (32)
Mike Cameron (37)
Endy Chavez (32)
Coco Crisp (30) – $8MM club option with a $500K buyout
Darin Erstad (36)
Ryan Freel (34)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Reed Johnson (33)
Andruw Jones (33)
Gabe Kapler (34)
Mark Kotsay (34)
Corey Patterson (30)
Scott Podsednik (34)
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take endy chavez in a heartbeat. Put him in left and move braun to center.
by levnclf on Jul 23, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
may I ask why?
Is it that career .312 OBP? The sub .680 OPS? His inability to play center? The requirement that our best OF be forced to move to a position that he has given no indication of being able to play?
by badgermaniac on Jul 24, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Move Braun?
Why would you move Braun to CF? If anything, move him to RF, but frankly, I think he’s fine where he is.
by sjlee on Jul 24, 2009 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree..
I’d rank defense higher on the priorities list than offense when talking about the CF position…SS as well.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gamel to RF
I think Gamel in RF next year with McGhee at 3rd is a GREAT IDEA. Also, I’d like to see us try to bring Lopez back for a couple million to be next years Counsel.
Trade Hardy and Hart for any kind of pitching we can. Hart is terrible and Hardy is expendible with Escobar ready.
by JayzTazay on Jul 23, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure...
Lopez will want to play a bench role for ‘a couple million’….not after making 3.5 million this year and having one of the best years of his career.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lopez as a backup?
Not likely. First off, why would he bother signing for less money than he’s getting now only to play part-time? If the Brewers don’t resign him, there are other teams out there that would be happy having a starting second baseman who can hit .300.
Hart is actually starting to hit. Not with much power, but his BA is around .260 now. It’ll be interesting to see what happens to him during the offseason as he’s eligible for arbitration again.
Hardy is only four years older than Escobar. Escobar has more speed, but doesn’t have nearly as much power. Defensively, Escobar has the edge, but it’s not like Hardy is bad defensively. It’d be nice if they could keep both (maybe shift Hardy to 3B), but it’s more likely that one of them will be traded.
by sjlee on Jul 24, 2009 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind
Our mish-mash at second has been pretty good, maybe better than what Weeks would have given us.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Jul 23, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also Weeks' health
hasn’t exactly been stellar over his career. So, you can’t really assume a full season out of him. I think inherent in the analysis should be some sort of deal to improve the team in the offseason while sorting out SS. My gut says next year’s team is better, but in looking at the above postings, I can’t really explain why.
by Capt Science on Jul 23, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say it with me
“Kendall is a free agent.”
Actually, I’m afraid we’re going to bring his .614 OPS back next season.
I’m optimistic about next season too, though also inexplicably. Getting Rickie back? Pretending McGehee won’t regress to pre-2009 levels? Assuming by then Melvin will have straightened out our pitching staff?
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Jul 23, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McGehee regress?
Regress to what? He had all of 24 ABs with the Cubs before coming to the Brewers. Prior to that he hit .296 in Triple-A (2008).
by sjlee on Jul 24, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Our mish-mash at 2nd has been pretty good, maybe better than what Weeks would have given us."
I don’t think that’s true, though I’m too “at work” to dig up the numbers to see if I’m right. McGehee/Counsell have certainly performed beyond expectations, but Counsell can’t offer the power and run production Weeks did, and McGeehee did most of his damage at 3rd. Lopez will probably produce at roughly the same level as Weeks, though in a slight different way.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 23, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this discussion got a bit sidetracked
though i love the discussion. my point was that we have a strong nucleus. it wasn’t that we have a ‘significantly better’ team.
the question is: does making a trade for halladay or less (and seriously depleting the farm) make us a world series contender? if it doesn’t, i don’t want to do it.
by Cervercero on Jul 23, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I oppose a trade for Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee
I oppose any trade for Roy Hallady or Cliff Lee. You nailed it with how it will set back the club in a couple years. We are a small market club, so the only way for the Brewers to consistently have success is to have a strong farm system. I do not oppose all trades though, I would love to see the Brewers trade for young pitchers in the minors that show a lot of potential. Trade Bill Hall, heck, even Corey Hart (as long as it’s an equal trade). We just have to deal with what we have this year, then pickup a solid Pitcher in the offseason. I will be furious if the Brewers trade P Manny Parra because I firmly believe that one day he will be an ace, if not our ace. He is a young pitcher with a lot of potential, these are the kind of pitchers I want the Brewers to have.
by Jabooty on Jul 23, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
good luck getting anything more than a #5-6 starter in the offseason.
And we’ve got plenty of those.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who'd want Hall?
I agree that a small market team like the Brewers should be looking to pitching prospects to fill their rotation, as trading for aces is a very short-term solution which hurts the future.
That being said, however, the Brewers don’t have too much in terms of pitching prospects currently. You mention trading Hall and Hart to get some prospects. Who would want Hall and his inflated contract? Hart could possibly get a mid-level prospect… maybe two, but not much more than that with his numbers.
Gallardo will be the Brewers ace. Parra is a mystery. He’ll have dominant outings, but then turn around and not make it past 4 innings before getting shelled. He’s 26 yo right now… not sure how much longer the Brewers can wait for his potential to become a reality.
by sjlee on Jul 24, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we resign Felippe Lopez and Casey McGehee, the Brewers will be strong next year. Bill Hall and Jeff Suppan will not return as their contracts are up after this season. Mike Rivera is our catcher of the future with Angel Salome being the backup if Jason Kendall doesn’t return. We need to resign Lopez though, he is a better leadoff hitter then Rickie Weeks and he is a switch hitter, so he is extremely valuable. We need to trade Corey Hart and JJ Hart and bring in some high potential young pitchers. We can test Matt Gamel in the outfield, lets see how he does. Is Mike Cameron returning next season?
by Jabooty on Jul 23, 2009 2:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hall and Suppan aren't up after this year.
and Mike Rivera is NOT the catcher of the future.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately, we have Hall and Suppan through next year
by warwick5s on Jul 23, 2009 2:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
Next year, we’ll be paying Suppan and Hall $21 million. Wow.
To kick us while we’re down, we’ll pay them $2.5 million just to not play for us anymore in 2011.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Jul 23, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Melvin was serious about "getting what they wanted" from Suppan
Maybe he’ll exercise the option.
"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."
by KLSnow on Jul 23, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the pitching market is the same after 2010 as it was when Suppan signed, he probably would, and it'd probably be a non-terrible move.
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure it would be a terrible move, actually
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Jul 23, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 2011
$12.75 million for Soupy
$9.25 million for Bill E.
That’s $22 million of suckitude.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"
by roguejim on Jul 23, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think of the $2.5m as a divorce
Its expensive, but its worth every penny.
by Getting Yosted on Jul 23, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My stance on these issues is well known, I guess
especially if you go back and read the stuff I wrote earlier this year and about the Sabathia deal last season. I use the small-market argument to justify going for it whenever you have the chance, and adding a potential 8-win starter to go with your prime years of Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, Hart, and potentially Hardy while mixing in the second wave of prospects while getting a chance to try our luck this year too is awesome. But there’s a limit, of course. For either pitcher I’d be willing to part with either Gamel or Lawrie as the centerpiece, without involving Escobar or Parra. They can have pretty much anybody else in the system expect Green because he’s necessary depth at 3B then. Two pitchers and two position players depending on if Lawrie or Gamel goes because Gamel has more value.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Jul 23, 2009 2:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but what second wave?
If we deal for Halladay the second wave will consist of one player (probably either Gamel or Escobar) and it will probably cost us Parra and a couple of other prospects to boot. Everyone else (Lawrie, Cain, if neither is included in the deal, and the the rest) won’t get here until Fielder and probably Hardy are gone. Please, tell me I’m wrong, but that’s what I see.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 23, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt we need to go for it. But when?
I completely agree with seizing our window. The question is: Is this year our window? Braun, Fielder and Gallardo are all on this team together for two years after this.
Last year was a great window. With CC, before the end of the season tailspin, we could dream of a WS. This year I don’t think we can.
Therefore, let’s keep our ammo and hope we’ve got what it takes to seize the moment when it’s right.
by Cervercero on Jul 23, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
None
I think this team has too many holes to be considered a strong bet to make the playoffs even with another good pitcher on the staff.
I seriously might lean towards being good for some time and take my chances on this year with a minor bullpen or bench move (much like the Lopez deal).
CC was an exception last year and the net value gain in upgrading from Parra or Bush or whomever to say Cliff Lee or even Halladay is smaller than people might realize. At the time of the deal last year, CC was expected to net the Brewers an extra 2 wins or so. Now, nobody expected a sub 2.00 ERA and what not, so it didn’t work out that way, but I think that was the logical perspective to take then, as well as now.
Considering the deal is later in the year, on paper, I can’t imagine the net gain in expected wins is much more than a game or two. Does that get this team into the playoffs? Is just geting into the playoffs enough to possibly mortgage the future?
by badgermaniac on Jul 23, 2009 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Remind me as to why CC was an exception again?
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Simple
Because other than possibly Rick Sutcliffe, he was the best mid-season acquisition in my lifetime (that I can recall), which covers about 35 years.
Not only did you have a great pitcher, but you had him pitching at about 2 runs less than his career ERA in 17 starts.
A 3.00 ERA would have been very impressive. But he gave the team 11 wins and a 1.65 ERA in 130 innings. That is NOT typically how mid-season acquisitions go, even when you go get a superstar. You may not see a performance like that for another 50 years.
by badgermaniac on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, so it was an exception because of the results. Before the trade, though, were you as pessimistic on the deal as you are on a potential Lee/Halladay Deal?
by Mykenk on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know about him...
… but I wasn’t pessimistic. That trade made a lot more sense to me than these possible deals do because we were a year further removed from the likely departure of the center-piece of the batting order and because we had a lot more depth relatively high in the system than we do now.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 23, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I didn’t think it would have the impact that it did of course, but I was ok with the deal for a few reasons.
1. They gave up a player in LaPorta that had no place to play.
2. They had more higher level prospects at that time since they still had Salome, Escobar, Gamel, Gillespie, Brantley, etc. so giving up one A level prospect and one B level prospect made some sense.
3. With Sheets, Parra, and Sabathia at the top of the rotation, Hart playing better, Cameron back in the lineup, and so forth, I thought they had a better chance to do some damage in the post-season should they make it. That didn’t work out of course, but I thought it was a reasonable gamble to take.
by badgermaniac on Jul 23, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
The key difference in my mind between making the big trade this year and last year’s deal for Sabathia was the fact that CC is an exceptional pitcher (so far, not a great point, cuz Halladay is exceptional and arguably so is Lee), plus Sheets had the best first half of his life (it’s still amazing to me that little over a year ago, he started the ASG),and the team was playing well overall, i.e., pitching and hitting consistently well.
So, trading for Halladay this year is technically similar to trading for CC last year, because they’re similarly awesome, but that’s pretty much where the credible comparison ends for me. This is a team that’s currently got some big holes (starting pitching, long relief, hitting, the bench), mainly due to under-performance rather than lack of talent. And I don’t see that all just magically coming together because of the arrival Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee.
These deals would be very financially expensive and talent-draining expensive, neither of which are type of hits a small salary team like the Crew can take and remain competitive.
I’m okay with being the NL’s Twins even if it means we fans occasionally suffer the frustration of feeling the team’s one or two pieces away from a championship. That’s a whole helluva lot better than where this club was just a few years ago.
by 400metres on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're over-glorifying 2008 because of the awesomeness of Sabathia after July
They had a few stretches of absolute suck right before they traded for him. Remember that Hardy, Braun, and Fielder had really slow starts last year and the bullpen was a pile of suck.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Jul 24, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I agree Sabathia wasn't having his best season for the Indians last year, prior to the trade,
but his overall stats were excellent beyond the W-L, and his overall career was nothing short of Awesome.
In other words, Sabathia is one of the best pitchers of his generation, just like Halladay. But that’s where I think the similarities of trading for either of them ends.
And yes, the team wasn’t “great” at the point of the Sabathia trade last year, but they were far closer to great than they are this year as we sit and contemplate the same type of trade.
That’s my point: that while there are similarities to last year, but these “trade for Halladay or Cliff Lee” demands are not seeing the forest for the trees – these are exceedingly expensive players (renting Sabathia for half a season was not), their teams have all the leverage and are demanding a shitload of talent in return, and the Brewers, as a whole, do not appear to be so close to greatness that this type of cupboard-clearing, go-for-it-all type trade is prudent or even rational.
by 400metres on Jul 24, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're 1 game back in the loss column. Teams go through rough patches. No reason to think we won't bounce back from this one.
by Mykenk on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right.
There isn’t one reason to think the Brewers won’t win the division this year. Not one.
by 400metres on Jul 24, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WIN NOW
Not sure picking up one arm — not matter how good he is — can turn around Brewers. They are 6-12 in last 18 games.
THwitter
No way Tom.
If not for HGH boy Pujols, Prince would be the favorite for MVP. Braun is well, awesome. Yes there are holes throughout the rest of the line-up but these are guys who might all pick it up of the front office shows a willingness to go for it! Everything clicked last year when we got CC. Remember August? September sucked because Yost was too tight, and I know that Macha can guide this team more effectively down the stretch. I watched this team suck for 15 years, I’m not ready for the party to be over so let’s go for it!
Is Mark Buehrle available?
"I still consider myself the best third baseman in the league" -Bill Hall
by GoCrew on Jul 23, 2009 4:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
.....
Ummm and MVP award doesn’t mean you win lots of games, Braun is in a slump and that goes for the rest of the line up as well. All of those guys COULD turn it around if a deal were made but they could also just plain turn it around without one….
"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome
by zsxander567 on Jul 23, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
The Crew does need MAJOR help in the starting rotation. It has been an issue all season long. It has been a struggle to replace Parra. Sure he was called up due to Bush having arms issues. Parra will be back in Nashville when Bush is ready to pitch.
I say the Crew go after a pitcher that they will have long than half of a season.
by tyr on Jul 23, 2009 6:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Parra won't be in AAA when Bush gets back
he’s done better of late than Burns, not to mention pen members.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 23, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
Okay sure, Albert is just the greatest hitter in the history of the game and has never touched a PED. Regardless, Braun/Prince together are better than him. Who else do the Cards have? Ludwick, Ankiel? Come on.
My point is that when you have the best heart of the order the NL you should take full advantage of it and try to win now. The biggest thing holding back this team is starting pitching. I’d rather just get Erik Bedard and call it a day. Momentum means more than you think in a clubhouse and right now there is none. We need a spark,
"I still consider myself the best third baseman in the league" -Bill Hall
by GoCrew on Jul 23, 2009 7:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't aware...
Bedard had been made available. How are we supposed to ‘just get’ him if he’s not available? Do you mean sign him this offseason when he’s a free agent? And do you remember Ben Sheets? Bedard is kind of like him…often injured.
by TheBurningRom on Jul 23, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not for long
There are rumors they are going after Holliday. That would make a pretty nice middle of the order right there.
BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.
by MadJimiBrewha on Jul 23, 2009 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun trade talk ...
A lot more fun than the years when Brewer fans could only speculate on topics like which single-A prospect the Brewers could get for Curtis Leskanic.
by oconnobe on Jul 23, 2009 8:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Keep Core
Braun and Fielder, and now Gamel in RF next year with McGhee. Hardy and Hart and expendable. Keep Para and Yovonni, and Looper, and pick up a true 1st or second starter. Bring up the rookie catcher after Kendel leaves. For God’s sake don’t get rid of Prince….he carries this team on his shoulders at times.
by YoungvulcanSpock on Jul 24, 2009 12:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
10 mins of reading this thread I'll never get back.
When does school start up.
by Flag Up on Jul 24, 2009 5:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll take reading about the Brewers
over school EVERY day. Don’t forget your lunch, son.
by Sealord on Jul 24, 2009 7:49 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
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NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
St. Louis
|
91 | 71 | .561 | 0 | Lost 6 |
|
Chicago
|
83 | 78 | .515 | 7.5 | Lost 1 |
|
Milwaukee
|
80 | 82 | .493 | 11 | Won 3 |
|
Cincinnati
|
78 | 84 | .481 | 13 | Won 2 |
|
Houston
|
74 | 88 | .456 | 17 | Lost 3 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
62 | 99 | .385 | 28.5 | Lost 2 |
(updated 11.22.2009 at 4:31 AM CST)
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