Cubs 2, Brewers 1 (10 innings)
by Kyle Lobner on Jul 3, 2009 4:27 PM CDT
in WPA Game Recaps
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PrintW: Kevin Gregg (3-2)
L: Mark DiFelice (4-1)
MVP: Jeff Suppan (.310)
LVP: Mike Cameron (-.245)
Win Expectancy Graph
SB Nation Coverage
The Brewers bats were far from the top of their game today, but they found a way to win lose anyway. (blame people who post and run, Mr. Snow, for the now-awkward intro)
Here's something I don't say often: Jeff Suppan was masterful today, but the Brewer bats couldn't pick him up.
Carlos Zambrano shut the Brewers down today, allowing just one run on five hits and three walks in seven innings, but Suppan matched him pitch for pitch, allowing just one run of his own on four hits and two walks in seven innings of his own.
The story of the day for the Brewers was missed opportunities: they had runners in scoring position in the third, fourth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth, but went hitless in all of those opportunities, scoring one run on a bases loaded walk. J.J. Hardy and Mike Cameron came to the plate nine times and had fewer hits (none) than Jeff Suppan (one). Jeff Suppan was also thrown out at the plate to end an inning.
In the tenth inning, the Cubs had a runner on third with two outs, so Ken Macha had Mark DiFelice walk Milton Bradley and Geovany Soto to load up the bases for Jake Fox, and DiFelice walked him (on a ridiculous call) to end the game.
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Enjoy the holiday, everyone.
See you tomorrow.
"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."
I can't believe I did that.
With the game in extras and Mrs. Snow tapping her foot by the door waiting to leave for our holiday weekend, I had two drafts of the game recap ready to roll, so I could delete one and use the other as soon as the game ended and hit the road.
At 7 this morning, I started awake and realized I’d forgotten to dump the first paragraph.
"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."
That stings way worse than last night.
Bad call to end the game aside, we’ve got no one to blame but ourselves. The Cubs were begging to get beat all day and we let them hang around and hang around until they found a way to steal it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 4:31 PM CDT reply actions
The only Brewer who deserved a win today
Was Suppan. That will probably be the only time I type that for the rest of my life
dickie_thon: Third baseman Bill Hall / Watches the third strike go by / Gamel grabs his glove
Bullshit
You don’t end the game on a questionable call. Just like yesterday, somebody got a pass on a check swing, because you don’t want the game to end on a call like that
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
Where's Macha?
This is one time I want Macha to blow his lid and argue the shit out of it with the ump. That was a bullshit call.
Arguing today would be pointless
However, if a bad call is made tomorrow look for Macha to lose it to try and fire up his guys
It is what it is.
I think Macha is unable to lose it.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
Alright, I'm going to the driving range to get rid of some frustration
Who’s joining me?
dickie_thon: Third baseman Bill Hall / Watches the third strike go by / Gamel grabs his glove
um
The Brewers bats were far from the top of their game today, but they found a way to win anyway.
I was under the impression that we lost
So are you
Imagine the Brewers offense without Ryan & Prince.
-Bill Schroeder
by Dikembe Meiztombo on Jul 3, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Beat me to it
dickie_thon: Third baseman Bill Hall / Watches the third strike go by / Gamel grabs his glove
the only reason it could have been interpreted as high
is because fox ducked down. The strike zone doesn’t exactly work like that
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
er than the knees
not than the strikezone.
okay…it was in the “gray area”, but as has been pointed out, that was a strike the whole rest of the game.
Yeah, I just don't think it was "a ridiculous call".
It really was an exciting game, although I can’t say it is the best way to see a game end with the call on a borderline strike.
Yup, it was high.
Pretty damn high.
---
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
Troll elsewhere
Please, if anything let us lick our wounds with out trolls.
We both see it the way we want to, in our various shades of Blue.. now please return to your natural habitat. Which I assume is where the rest of the goblins live.
by SgtClueLs on Jul 3, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
how exaclty am i trolling?
i’m not making fun of the Brewers are at, and I’m just stating what it looked like on TV.
Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball
yeah. if you haven't found out before, you can actually watch games on TV.
Like you can actually see pitches.
Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball
I think this is a pretty good example.
Seriously dude, I don’t come over to your land and mock you when you lose with a close questionable call. Don’t come over here with guise of peace when you clearly are looking for a fight.
you might not, but there are other brewers fans that do.
Understand this, I’m here to see what Brewers fans think about the last pitch. Picking a fight? Not really, but when a person makes a comment like “And we know TV is always correct…” that’s a little ridiculous.
Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball
Doesn't mean you have too..
I don’t see where you are going with this.
And with that, I’m gonna go drink my missery away with a few delicous beers of choice.
gameday cameras see from multiple angles
and triangulate.
and is therefore more accurate than the impression you get from a single off-center camera shot from behind the outfield wall.
alright you've convinced me. But that gameday pitch is still pretty iffy to me.
Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball
But its still subjective...
… as is the zone as interpreted by the umpire on a given day. Was it close? Yeah. My problem with the call had way more to do with the fact that strikes had been called in that location all day and then, when the game was on the line, it was a ball. That’s BS.
But that said, the game should have never gotten past 9 innings. If the Brewers had played well, it would have been a 5-1 win (or thereabouts) instead of a 2-1 loss.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
looked like a strike on TV
Even the fans at NBB said it was a strike. Pretty much everyone knew it was a strike except apparently the umpire and a few random Cubs fans living in denial.
Maybe if the Brewers had got a hit with RISP at some point it wouldn’t have mattered though. We let Zambrano off the hook a couple times with bad swings at mediocre pitches with RISP and it cost us.
Dead right on all points.
The last call doesn’t happen if we take care of things when we should have.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Rec'd
Although, in the interests of scientific analysis, I must ask whether your considered view is that lexmarklover is a troll or, in fact, a goblin…
Actually, the term I had in mind starts with a D...
… and ends with a bag.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
lol for you i got a really good one
p and end with rick. I hope your name is rick.
Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball
You know it's quality when the target of a non-insult...
… goes from irritated to laughing in less than 20 words.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point.
Thanks for backing it up with solid evidence. You’re right, I’m wrong.
---
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
Looks pretty correct to me.
If you look at the ball some of it is inside of the gray area in the strike zone. None of the ball protrudes outside of the gray area. Therefore according to Gameday even, the ump got it right.
I don't disagree with you.
I never like to see a game won by a controversial call. Yet, if it happens in the benefit of my team, I’ll take it.
Okay, let me reword that.
The ball appears (according to Gameday) to have been more in the strike zone than out of the strike zone. Definitely a borderline call if you are to trust Gameday, but actually according to how the ball looks on Gameday, it was closer to being a strike than a ball.
Great.
Nice of you to stop by.
Seeya.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
yes, some of the ball icon DOES protrude out of the gray area
into the strikezone. At least 2 pixels of green and another of white
That being said, I’m sure the ball is smaller than the icon used to represent it.
But yeah, where’s the rule that says “gray=ball”?
Why should I care what they think?
It looked like a strike to me. Both Kendall and DeFelice thought it was a strike, as did the entire Brewers dugout. Can TV angles make it look like a strike when it wasnt? Sure. But not the extent that gameday depicts. Why is it that gameday is always thrown out like its infallible? I don’t buy that crap out of the pope and I don’t buy it out of gameday. That pitch may have been close to the point where the call wasn’t ridiculous, but it’s not where gameday says it was. Could it have been a ball? Yeah, maybe, though it didn’t look like it to me, but fuck gameday and anyone who thinks that what gameday says should end the conversation.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
so, not a fan of the "replays" that they do to judge line calls in tennis then?
in tennis if a player argues a call, the ump and linejudges have zero say. it’s not even the “incontrivertable evidence to overturn” thing that football uses or baseball uses for HRs. The computer tells you in or out.
Frankly, I like the tennis system and think that gameday is more accurate than the eyes of the umpire. In most stadiums at least.
Not a fan of tennis at all.
I see your point, but there is a big difference between an in or out call, as defined by a visible chalk line in tennis, and the subjective, unmarked strike zone called by an umpire during the course of a game.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
The rulebook zone is not subjective.
That’s the whole problem. Human umpires have turned the zone into something subjective, which totally undermines the game.
---
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
I see that, but if we live in a world where the strikezone is subjective and it changes from day to day...
…. then who cares whether the pitch was a stike according to the rulebook? It should matter, but we know it doesn’t, so what difference does it make?
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Baffling
Because it’s wrong, plainly and obviously? The strike zone is not the balk rules.
It was a great selection of awesome.
I guess I've just lowered my expectations.
If they were to adopt gameday or some similar system as the final arbiter of balls and strikes, or if the rulebook zone suddenly starts getting enforced on a regular basis, I’ll care a lot more about what gameday has to say about a pitch’s location.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm still a little confused about what you're arguing
You, DiFelice, and Kendall all thought it was a strike, and so did Gameday. We’re using Gameday to support that it was a strike.
It was a great selection of awesome.
I realize that...
… but actually, when the gameday argument began, someone was using it to suggest it was a ball. See the use of the phrase “pretty damn high” above. The argument about the use/value of gameday ensued, which is where you came in.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, strike that...
lol….
I missed the sarcasm.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions
My opinion on the use of gameday is still the same...
… though I realize that I’ve now handed bk empirical evidence of my idiocy, and thus the tiny amount of credbility I had with him is reduced even further.
That’s ok. I’ve gotten used to bk thinking I’m an idiot.
Regardless, the game never should have gotten to that call in the 10th anyway, which is the point I was originally trying to make in this thread.
Later.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I really don't understand this point of view
Gameday tells you where the pitch actually was, based on the rulebook strike zone, better than any other tool we have. No, it doesn’t tell you balls/strikes in the context of “That was a strike all day”, but fuck “That was a strike all day” or personal strike zones or anything like that. If I want to know whether a ball should have been called a strike or vice versa, I want to know where it was in relation to the actual strike zone, not some vague notion of today’s strike zone.
It was a great selection of awesome.
Because...
What gameday thinks is good to know I guess, but the umps call the game. All we and the players can go on is what the umps think a strike is, because nothing else matters.
The reason we're upset is *because* nothing else matters
Of course the umpires call the game—they (he) called it wrong, in this case. That’s the entire problem!
It was a great selection of awesome.
I'm just sayin'
Thats the point of view, I think we’d all like a set strike zone that never changed. Especially today…but it’s not how it is atm. And until it is, thats all we can go on.
Well hell, we can't change anything about what happens on the field
Shut the blog down, I guess.
It was a great selection of awesome.
Well...
This argument has been going on for a long time, I’m not sure this blog will change that. I hope that wasn’t the goal of the blog.
That's not the point of what I said
The point is that we talk about the Brewers and whatever else fully well knowing we can’t change anything. To throw up your hands and say “Umpires have always done that and talking about it isn’t going to change anything” strikes me as a very odd, defeated viewpoint.
It was a great selection of awesome.
Actually...
… I think it’s a similar criticism by another method, and one that’s equally valid in my opinion.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions
But not consistently wrong...
… or at least not consistently wrong in the same way, thus allowing the players to adjust to the umps’ zone.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
This is not a good thing.
Which is my whole point.
---
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
Well...
… it matters to me because the rulebook strikezone hasn’t been enforced reguarly in the 30 odd years i’ve been watching the game. I don’t get outraged every time an ump fails to call strikes according to the zone defined by the rulebook for 2 reasons: 1) I’d get tired of being pissed off all the time; 2) because I’ve long since given up on expecting the rule book strike zone actually being enforced.
From my perspective, players adjust their performance based on what the umps are calling on any given day. Far more than strict adherence to the book’s zone, they want consistency during the course of the day. When the same pitch location goes from strike to ball and back again, they get angry, and rightfully so. Theoretically, they would be justly upset every time the rulebook zone isn’t enforced, but after years of seeing it all but ignored, they no longer expect it be called as indicated in the book, and thus there’s little outrage when they see it go unenforced in any particular game.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't mean to troll.
So please hear me out.
It was a questionable call. And most umps would call it a strike because they don’t want the game to end like that.
In fact, you could read it all over the ump’s face.
However, the Gamecast picture is just as questionable as the Ump’s call. The reason being that Gamecast uses a preset strike zone as to in reality the zone is subjective to the hitter.
The ball crossed around the letter. Whether it was the strike zone of the letters is what is still up for debate.
Find a screen shot of the last play. That should make it more conclusive for one way or the other,
In any case. You guys played one hell of a ballgame. I love it when Milwaukee comes to town. The intensity is incredible.
Suppan played well, for sure.
Z wasn’t on it as much as he normally is, I think it was the crews game to win. Thats how it goes sometimes though.
Actually...
… I thought Z struggled. The wind blowing in helped him avoid a few runs early on, but he came up big in a couple of jams later on, aided by some bad at bats from Cameron, Counsell and McGehee. Suppan had it going today, as evidenced by the ground ball outs he was generating.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, we didn't play one hell of a ballgame.
We hit like crap. So did you guys. You got one hit with RISP and we didn’t, so you won. I appreciate the attempt to keep things civil, but there were a lot more bat at bats today than there was good pitching.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, didn't you get the memo?
Only Gameday’s intepretation of the strike zone matters now. Apparently.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
That screenshot
got me all riled up again
dickie_thon: Third baseman Bill Hall / Watches the third strike go by / Gamel grabs his glove
all right, what happened?
I’ve been helping my aunt move out all day, so I didn’t catch any of the game, and I saw something about Mark DiFelice walking in the winning run. I was all O_o, DiFelice does not walk people, and now see everyone arguing about “walk-off K.”
My only question is WHAT WAS MACHA THINKING with two consecutive IBB? I really need to get around to reading the chapter in The Book about IBB, but as far as I know that’s not what you’re supposed to do with it. It’s not like the dudes he walked are Josh Hamilton or anything.
I'm with you
I blame Macha more than the ump or Difelice.
Why?
Did Macha not get a bunt down with 2 on and nobody out? Did he swing at a first pitch out of the zone when the bases were loaded and pop out? Did he strike out 4 times?
If you’re looking for someone to blame, look no further than your 5-8 hitters, and Counsell.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The second IBB
was 3 balls low and outside, followed by one intentional ball.
I think he didn’t want to challenge the hitter in a 3-0 hole, especially without a force play available.
ah, that explains it
I noted that DiFelice was having control issues last night, and it looks like his getting some sleep was not a solution. (Not that it would have been.) It’s not like him to miss so much.
Here's another pic of it. Think it was a frame or two later....
Clearly a strike, especially when they’ve made an effort to call that a strike more and more…
Agreed.
Comcast Sports seemed to have had a different CF angle. More cornered. This one shows it for what it was.
You win some and lose some this way.
I know it doesn’t change anything.
But stay classy guys. And thanks for having me here.
Brewers = Pirates ?
The Brewers are now 1/2 game out of first, and 2-1/2 games out of 5th. The only team in the NL Central that they are clearly superior to are the Pirates. Or are they?
The Brewers are, I think, basically a .500 team in a division full of basically .500 teams. I was looking up the runs scored versus runs given up differential for the teams in the division. While the run differential doesn’t always correlate to win differential, I thought it might point to some differences in luck. Some teams might have been winning (or losing) more than their fair share in the first half, and that could correct itself in the second half.
So here goes
Runs scored – runs allowed
Astros -18
Reds -13
Pirates +3
Brewers +4
Cubs +7
Cards +10
I think it’s interesting how close the Cards, Cubs and Brewers are, and even more interesting how indistinguishable the Pirates are from them.
Thanks backtocali.
Go tell the Pirates fans they’re basically indistinguishable from the Cards Cubs and Brewers. I’m sure they’ll be pleasantly surprised. I’m also quite sure that they’d be more than willing to trade rosters with anyone of those teams in spite of your analysis.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Why would they trade rosters?
If they are getting essentially the same results with a much cheaper roster, wouldn’t they want to keep it?
One of us is an idiot.
It may well be me. Either way, I don’t see how continuing this conversation would be productive.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 3, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
hahahahahahahahhahahaah
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
DiFelice had five walks all season before the shenanigans
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
I was wondering...
…what the deal was. I was working so I couldn’t watch, all I had was the box score to go on from the iPhone app. I was trying to figure out how the hell the bases got loaded with DiFelice on the mound. At least I know now it wasn’t because he pitched himself into it…
Composite screen shot
Left side is Kendall catching the final pitch, right side is Fox before going into his crouch:
It was a great selection of awesome.
by battlekow on Jul 3, 2009 6:29 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Also before the umpire goes into his crouch
A statement which takes nothing away from (or perhaps adds to?) the human error aspect, but it’s worth noting the ump’s angle changes as much as Fox’s stance.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
FTR
I’m stealing this
Imagine the Brewers offense without Ryan & Prince.
-Bill Schroeder
by Dikembe Meiztombo on Jul 3, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
That's terrible
did the ump just want to go home???
captainbok: What do you like the most about milwaukee
Jeff Suppan: Captain Bok, that is a great question. Does "Bok" mean Book of Knowledge? My favorite thing about Milwaukee are the Brewers.
Just noticed
DiFelice’s first career loss.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
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NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Chicago
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0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
|
Cincinnati
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0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
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Houston
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0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
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Milwaukee
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0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
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Pittsburgh
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0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
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St. Louis
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0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
(updated 2.8.2012 at 12:59 PM CST)
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