Melvin vs Hardy poll
by Junked on Aug 22, 2009 7:35 PM CDT
62 comments
There has been alot of back and forth about this situation in various threads. The two issues are should Melvin leave Hardy down long enough to add an extra arbitration year on and if so what should happen to Melvin and the Brewers reputation if this was allowed to happen. I am in favor of him leaving Hardy down so I will ask the question about the later part. What should happen if Melvin leaves him down long enough.
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If they leave him down there, they better not expect him to ever wear a brewers uniform again. That'd be quite possibly the dickiest move ever. His agent would demand a trade instantly,
and probably file a grievance against the Brewers. and win.
by Mykenk on Aug 22, 2009 7:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't really understand the outrage here.
It’s the same thing that happened to Bill Hall, in some ways. If you want to play, don’t suck. Hardy’s having a bad year at the plate (and yeah, he’s been profoundly unlucky), and he got sent down. If he wants to get called back up he’s got to play well and right now, at least from his stats, he’s not. If he doesn’t get called up in time to preserve his service time, he’s really got no one to blame but himself in my opinion.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 22, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The timing is the problem. Hardy's been bad since May ended, yet they wait until the last possible second to send him down?
I don’t think anyone would have a problem had he gotten sent down in June, July, or early August, it’s the fact that Melvin waited until one of the last couple days he could send him down and still have the option of making 2009 not count. Just seems a little shady, is all.
by Mykenk on Aug 22, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it wouldn't matter if Hardy was producing at Nashville.
If I’m doing the math right (and maybe I’m not), Hardy would still have to be left in Nashville after rosters expand on September 1st in order for his free agency to be delayed by a year. If he was hitting at AAA there would be 0 chance that he doesn’t get called up when rosters expand. It still seems likely to me that he’ll get called up on the 1st no matter how bad he’s playing, but if he doesn’t, isn’t that his fault instead of Melvin’s?
I agree that Hardy’s been the victim of some unbelievable bad luck at the plate this year but at some point he’s got to produce, particularly against AAA competition.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 22, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The starting point is the issue, in my mind. I don't see there being a way that he doesn't come up when rosters expand.
by Mykenk on Aug 22, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that he's likely to come up when the rosters expand...
… and if he does, all of the criticism is pretty much meaningless.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 22, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anybody's criticizing moving Hardy to the minors
we’re just trying to say that it wouldn’t be a good idea to leave him down
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 22, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can be called up Sept. 1 and lose free agency
You count the day of the option, so August 12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31 is twenty days, enough to lose the service time.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he had been sent down earlier
wouldn’t that have stopped the clock from ticking also.
In other words, I don’t think the situation is any different for melvin either way. In fact, he probably did the better thing by giving Escobar more time to get confident in his batting.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 22, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the difference is how obvious and contrived it looks
he had been performing poorly all year. If you’re gonna send him down, don’t do it with exactly enough days to delay his clock.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 22, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
his BABIP was suffering in the first half of the season
in the second half even with that starting to come up a bit, he still had a poor average. The timing was right.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 22, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
If he was performing near his career average then the move would look obvious.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 22, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different than keeping guys down to avoid Super 2 status?
The Brewers did what they’re allowed to do. It’s a jerky thing to do, but that doesn’t mean it’s against the rules…so what would Hardy file a grievance over?
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably wouldn't, but he'd probably demand a trade instantly, and make the organization look like a bunch of scumbags.
by Mykenk on Aug 23, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he demands a trade, so what?
It’s not like they have to trade him. The organization already looks bad, so what’s the damage?
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would they really look bad?
People see a guy batting .150 in the minors complaining he isn’t getting called up…they clearly aren’t keeping him down just because of his service time. If we we’re 2 games out of first would we be having this conversation?
Seems pretty justified to me. The argument that they could have done it anytime is kind of silly, he had one good month in the middle the season, giving him at least another month after that to play well, he didn’t.
"Cubs suck. I own them" -Doug Davis
by Metagen on Aug 23, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note: leaving him down does NOT increase his "trade-ability."
by Mykenk on Aug 22, 2009 10:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Adding an extra year of team control doesn't make him more valuable?
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 22, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if he can't perform. Sure, it'll increase his value a little, but it won't bring it up to the level it was before Melvin haphazardly sent him down. It'll never get back to where it was, unless he has a huge finish. Like, .500BA, 1.2 OPS, etc.
by Mykenk on Aug 22, 2009 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is only a Prick move if...
JJ is tearing to cover off the ball in Nashville…. but he isn’t. I don’t buy the timing issue because of Escobar. There had to be a net 0 loss in switching out JJ and Escky (is that what his nick name is). In July, was DM sure that Escobar could hit the .220 that JJ was hitting?
I have no problem with keeping JJ in Nashville if he can’t help the Brewers.
by Saberilliterate on Aug 23, 2009 8:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Free Agent / Draft Signing
Hardy sure has played himself out of the pros. Both with his bat and his glove (Seems to be making more Es this year from an fan point of view.. I haven’t looked at the number), but I’m more concerned about how this makes the Club look for any Free Agent or Draft Signing.
Looking at how much the draft slot bonuses went up this year, it makes me wonder if it would even be worth it to extend Hardys Arby years if it causes all the drafted folks to demand a higher signing bonus since we’ve proven we’ll do whatever it takes to delay their FA years.
by SgtClueLs on Aug 23, 2009 10:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem I have with the doom-and-gloom "now players won't come here" scenarios
Is you hear that stuff all the time. How often does that stuff actually come about? How many franchises have really been blackballed by free agents and draftees over the years? I think money (and if the team is so lucky, winning) talks, even louder than the Player-X-was-screwed-over warning.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah winning helps
If you are highish draft pick. Wouldn’t you demand a high % since in your recent history you delayed a Former All-Star FA by a year? I sure would till the club proves it was an exception to the rule moving forward. My point is the money saved based on a delay in Hardys FA higher then the % ‘tax’ we’d face for Draft slots next year?
FAs will go where ever they are paid the most, but draft picks can delay a signing if they want to. I’m more concerned about the effects on us signing draft picks then FAs.
by SgtClueLs on Aug 23, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draft picks already demand high bonuses
The team is already “overpaying” draft picks (see Davis, Kentrail and Hall, Brooks last week). I don’t think this one case will affect draft pick bonus demands any more than delaying Super Two status or the other roster tricks teams use does. I don’t think a HS or college player is going to turn down money just because JJ Hardy was sent to Nashville.
In any event, if the front office is that worried, they’ll pick someone higher than expected and then complain about how Boras & the big market teams mess with signability like every year.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’m not trying to argue that I’m right. I’m just worried about how it will effect signability of already over priced draft slots.
And the way Bonus’s are going, eventually we will be to small to even draft high slot boras represented clients. There really needs to be a cap to make it fair.
by SgtClueLs on Aug 23, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there will be a number of draft changes coming out of the next CBA negotiations
I can see both sides moving to change the compensation system as teams pass on more Type A free agents in favor of keeping picks. A player/draftee-friendly slotting system might result, too, though the clever cheaper teams would just let the teams willing to pay more sign the top prospects each year and then pick them up in the Rule 5 draft (both portions) when those teams have no room on their 40 man roster a few years later. Then they don’t even have to pay for the top picks who get injured early on!
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlikely
If it even happens, Hardy isn’t in the minors because the Brewers want to delay his free agency. He’s in the minors because his performance has been unacceptable. If a draft pick has a problem with being sent down to the minors due to performance issues, he’s entering the wrong sport.
by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 24, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players already don't want to come to Milwaukee
We can’t do things to chase away more. Maybe players will still want to come here, but I’m guessing it will take that much more money to get them here if we can’t treat the ones we have with respect.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 23, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Players already don't want to come to Milwaukee"
Like who, specifically? Have the Brewers had the highest bid for someone turned down because it came from Milwaukee?
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.
by TheJay on Aug 23, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gary Sheffield?
Sarcasm detector beeping.
by SgtClueLs on Aug 23, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe I'm reading into it too much
But you constantly hear it. Maybe more in the NBA than MLB, but it can’t be completely untrue. Especially when it’s coming from the players themselves. Here’s an excerpt from Gilbert Arenas’ blog, where he flat out says that nobody wants to live in Milwaukee.
Richard Jefferson going to Milwaukee …. HAHAHA! Oh man, now that is funny. When I heard that, I started laughing. Oh man, did I start laughing. You know why? Because every player hates Milwaukee. Nobody wants to live in Milwaukee. I’m sorry, Milwaukee, to come down hard on you, but no one in the NBA wants to play in Milwaukee. From him going from New Jersey, actually from New York (because he lives in New York), from New York to Milwaukee is like going … let’s just say it’s not going to sit well with you. That was a funny one when I heard that one.
You’re probably right, though. You hear the same things about Cleveland and Detroit. And Detroit certainly doesn’t have trouble bringing players in.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 23, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples to Oranges.
Milwaukee obviously can’t compete with some other major league cities. But NBA players end up living in and around their team’s city for nearly 9 months of the year once you throw in preseason and playoffs, from October to June. Milwaukee baseball players live in and around Milwaukee from April to October, a signficantly shorter time period in significantly nicer weather. Plus, the Brewers>Bucks no matter how poorly this team finishes this season.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 23, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to guess the brewers record is more important to FA's then the City.
If anyone looks at this issue in regards to either coming to Milwaukee or not, I can’t see how it’s not painfully obvious that Hardy played himself out of the lineup.
"Cubs suck. I own them" -Doug Davis
by Metagen on Aug 23, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to guage that
Because not a lot of smaller market teams do well enough in the standings to do a study. Cleveland in the 90’s might be a good example, but if I remember corectly, they didnt really bring in a lot of Free Agents to make those teams good, it was all home grown.
Milwaukee is my home town and I love it. Cant find better things to do on the lakefront in summer time than here. But the reality is that the city is a dump. The downtown is awful there is no economic incentive for companies or retailers to stay in the city, hotel/convention space is limited, public transport is atrocious, and there really isnt anything spectacular to draw in a big name Free Agent.
Players who like a slower pace of life, or more of a small town type of feel may come here, but Milwaukee lacks a lot of things compared to other Metropolis’ in MLB. Milwaukee just cant measure up to the amenities offered in a city like Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, etc. Even a city like Minneapolis has so much more to offer than Milwaukee. Add to it that Miller Park is in no mands land compared to the amenities the city does have, and it makes it a tough sell to bring in an FA to the team. Its probably not the last city that players like this want to come to in MLB, but its probably bottom 5.
by backtocali on Aug 26, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Milwaukee’s Bus system is consistently rated one of the best in the nation.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 26, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ive seen those ratings
They are way off.
Compared to other cities Ive used the transit system in (Seattle, Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis), Milwaukee’s is garbage.
The main thing about MP and “no mans land” is that its not walking distance from a restaurant/bar area like a lot of other stadiums have. You have a couple of places up on Bluemound, and fast food on 43rd. Not that that matters to the players. Ive heard that players from big market teams will either walk to the stadium or take the subway or whatever to the park, can you imagine Yovanni Gallardo or Prince Fielder hopping on the Big Green Limo to come to the park from his loft in the 3rd Ward? And then walking up to National Ave to get a McDonalds Cheeseburger after the game?
by backtocali on Aug 26, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have lived in both Milwaukee and Minneapolis and can tell you without a doubt that Milwaukee’s buses are much much better. They are more reliable more frequent and go to more places. Minneapolis is a great city but public transit here isn’t great.
by Trent Durrington on Aug 27, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't you learned by now that backtocali's post have nothing to do with truth or fact?
Besides. You’re just defending Milwaukee because you have in inferiority complex. :)
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 27, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No-Man's Land
Also, if you take Canal St. Miller Park is about a 10 minute drive from downtown.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 26, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are these so-called amenities that these cities offer over Milwaukee?
BTW, didn’t they use to say that about Green Bay? Seems like the Packers aren’t having too difficult of a time to sign free agents.
by sjlee on Aug 27, 2009 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I'm late in this conversation but,
As a former resident of NYC and a current resident if Milwaukee, that’s a pretty shallow representation that I would expect from an NBA player.
by Zorakathura on Aug 25, 2009 2:02 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Point is
It’s an athlete’s perspective on our city. Clearly, as he says everyone hates Milwaukee, there are at least a few who agree with him. Then again, maybe they’re just scared of the ghosts.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 25, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
might be a break down based on ethnicity or economic upbringing...
i think someone from an upper-middle class background that grew up in suburbs would prefer Milwaukee over NYC.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be quite an assumption to make
I think you’d find much more similarities between MLB players and NBA players based on the fact that they’re both highly paid, highly competitive athletes, than you would find differences based on the ethnicity or socio-economic differences of their childhood.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 25, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, you think Pags assumption is too big of a leap...
… but you’re willing to assume that the comment from one NBA player above is representative of the outlook of NBA players in general as well as MLB players regardless of the differences in the qualities of the franchises in question?
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 25, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point I was trying to make with the Arenas quote
is that I’m sure he’s not the only one.
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 25, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure that
There are enough people who hate and love Milwaukee, for whatever reasons they have. I would think that the only real good reason an athlete wouldn’t choose to come to Milwaukee – whether it’s for the Bucks or the Brewers – would be because it’s a smaller market, which means less money and less national coverage.
CounsellWSMVP10!
by kirbir on Aug 25, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he's not.
But I think it’s a stretch to conclude that most players in another sport feel the same way and that it keeps the Brewers from competing for free agents. Not that it matters because money (or lack thereof) keeps them from competing for most free agents and the end result is the same.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 25, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said most
Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".
by tcyoung on Aug 25, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
And I’m sure there are at least a few players who wouldn’t want to play in .
Yes, Milwaukee doesn’t have the glam of the big cities like LA, NY or Chicago, but there are still players willing to play here. Money and/or the possibility of playing for a playoff contender are many times as big a draw as the city itself.
I think Arenas’ post is true for him and the guys he hangs out with.
by sjlee on Aug 27, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fired?
You don’t see many people getting fired for making smart, hard-nosed, and easily justifiable moves that help in both the short and long term, in baseball or any business.
I’m not saying I like the move if they keep Hardy down, but that’s exactly the type of thing ownership would want to see from their management.
by The Left Button on Aug 23, 2009 2:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As the players always like to say when they hold out for more money or in contract negotiations...
it’s all business.
This situation with Hardy is no different.
Players hire agents to get them the best contract possible… in other words, they are doing what is best for them.
If management does what it can to do what’s best for the organization, how is that any different?
by sjlee on Aug 27, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are my questions:
I don’t have a problem with JJ rotting in Nash. However, I wonder about the following….
1.) Will this move actually cost JJ money? JJ will probably get $5M in arby this year, if he has a similar or somewhat similar 2010 — he won’t see a decrease in pay… My guess is that JJ now benefits staying in the Arby’s system as long as possible, I think delaying his FA probably at worst breaks even for JJ. Agree?
2.) Does keeping JJ in Nash. through Sep., decrease his trade value even further? possibly offsetting the extra year of control?
3.) How much more are teams going to be willing pay for that extra year of control? — I don’t think that there will be a tangible difference. So if you thought Hardy at one year would get you Player X, do you think Hardy with 2 years will get us more or less than Player X + Maxim St. Pierre?
Taking Shallowness to New Depths...
by Fatter than Joey on Aug 30, 2009 4:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
IMO...
1. Why would he get a raise if he goes to arbitration this year? Anyway, staying in arbitration only benefits Hardy if your assumption is that he won’t see a decrease in pay. In addition, the longer he stays in arbitration, he longer he has no (or very little) control over which team he plays for.
2. Only if he continues to play poorly. Granted, if he plays poorly at the MLB level or sits on the bench, his trade value will go down as well.
3. Probably not too much with the way he’s playing now. However, if he can turn it around, the offers won’t get better, but more teams might get in on the bidding.
by sjlee on Aug 30, 2009 10:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bump for Hardy
At worst JJ will get 80% of his 2009 salary -Thats the lowest that the Brewers can submit - I am sure that his agent will argue that JJ played awesome defense and because he got over 100 starts, JJ accumulated a lot of counting stats. Generally, players are not awarded paycuts in Arby.
Taking Shallowness to New Depths...
by Fatter than Joey on Aug 31, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point.
Looking at the raise that Weeks got last season is proof enough for me.
by sjlee on Sep 1, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
St. Louis
|
91 | 71 | .561 | 0 | Lost 6 |
|
Chicago
|
83 | 78 | .515 | 7.5 | Lost 1 |
|
Milwaukee
|
80 | 82 | .493 | 11 | Won 3 |
|
Cincinnati
|
78 | 84 | .481 | 13 | Won 2 |
|
Houston
|
74 | 88 | .456 | 17 | Lost 3 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
62 | 99 | .385 | 28.5 | Lost 2 |
(updated 11.21.2009 at 4:31 PM CST)
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