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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

The Brewers do not intend to recall shortstop J.J. Hardy from Triple-A Nashville before Sept. 1, and as a result, Hardy will not have the Major League service time he needs to qualify for free agency following next season.

over 2 years ago Newavatar_tiny Kyle Lobner 86 comments 0 recs  | 

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ouch

a day after he goes 3 for 5

although he’s only hitting .250 in damned AAA. Escobar’s hitting better than that in the pros…so…

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 29, 2009 8:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Fun with small sample sizes

JJ Hardy, AAA, 59 PA 250/288/446
Bill Hall, Mariners, 30 PA 308/333/423

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow his babip is pretty huge.

by SgtClueLs on Aug 29, 2009 11:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Wow

Guess the days if hardy as a brewer are over. Sure he’s pissed.

by SgtClueLs on Aug 29, 2009 9:27 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Why would be pissed… it isn’t like he played his way back

by Saberilliterate on Aug 29, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Millions of reasons in the form of dollars. I’m not saying he didn’t deserve the demotion but he’s now delayed a year from cashing in.

by SgtClueLs on Aug 29, 2009 11:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

As long as he is pissed at himself and not the club then he can be as pissed as he wants.

by Saberilliterate on Aug 29, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's also delayed a year from transitioning to a journeyman infielder

If he’s smart, he’ll focus that energy on hitting a baseball better.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just to be clear, I just think he’ll be toxic in the club house due to the delay. I don’t think he’ll be a pro brewer minus injuries.

by SgtClueLs on Aug 29, 2009 4:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I never saw him as much of a clubhouse influence

The only influence I ever saw out of JJ Hardy was when he whined about hitting 8th. He’ll be stuck in AAA forever if he wants to combine his poor performance with a bad attitude in the clubhouse.

The team holds all the cards here. The Brandon Marshall and Michael Crabtree situations apply. If you have no leverage, then you can’t bargain and you can’t influence the other party. All he can do is hurt his own value, and his chances of playing every day somewhere else.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

True

I was never a huge Hardy guy. I just wish we would gave moved him when his value was high. I’m glad we aren’t forced to listen to Hart and Hardys horrible ab music.

Btw Halls banner at mp is gone now. Just an empty banner.

by SgtClueLs on Aug 29, 2009 6:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

What if he gets injured in that last year

He oculd have had a multi year contract

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Aug 29, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't get the sense of entitlement

If he’s not playing well enough to be on the major league roster, why do the Brewers need to go out of their way to make sure he can make money later? The responsibility has been Hardy’s, to perform at a level that makes the Brewers want to keep him. He’s had plenty of chances and opportunity to do so.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

And?

What if that team happens to be the Brewers? Most will be thankful he got injured before getting a big multi-year contract.

by sjlee on Aug 29, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cashing in?!

Hard to “cash in” with numbers like he has. He’s getting paid $4.65M this year. If he continues to hit like he has, that’s about the most he can expect to get.

by sjlee on Aug 29, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

this could get really ugly.

Hardy hasn’t done much to play his way back, but it’s more or less universally accepted that he’s a major league quality shortstop. He’ll end up back in the clubhouse sometime in september, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he comes back with a crappy attitude and no desire to play.

"The reports are that he is getting better. The definition of better is nebulous."

by Kyle Lobner on Aug 29, 2009 10:13 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

agreed

I was hoping it wouldn’t come to this…it’s not as though his quality of play didn’t merit the trip down, but this just sets a bad precedent, I think.

Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?

by Lefti on Aug 29, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

but why wouldn't they bring him up

he’s on the 40-man. all 40 players on the 40 man can be on the big league squad. so, unless they’re planning on DFAing him, they’ll probably bring him up on the 2nd.

It’s not like he improves the AAA playoff odds by being there. That’s up to heether and the non-40man regs.

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 29, 2009 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

what good will it do?

at this point in the season, he’ll be shutting down in a month anyway regardless of the outcome. He may as well start his off-season workouts now:P

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 30, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

also

He should take a page from Brandon Marshall before he comes back with a bad attitude. The Brewers don’t have to trade him or play him, and getting buried on the bench or in AAA next year won’t help his free agent value.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

That seems unlikely to me.

I can’t picture Hardy turning into a cancer who pouts in the clubhouse. Of slightly greater concern are the players who might be upset on his behalf. But again, it’s hard to imagine that carrying over into next year, which at this point appears to be the next time Brewer games will actually matter.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 29, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think just about everything in here is speculation

So let’s respect others’ opinions

CounsellWSMVP10!

by kirbir on Aug 29, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually there is...

Hardy does not have a history of being anything but a team player. He’s never complained (openly) about his contract or playing time… unlike some of his teammates.

I never said it wasn’t possible that he’d come back pissed off… I’m simply pointing out that his approach to the game thus far has been professional.

by sjlee on Aug 31, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

What if he comes back right on September 1?

Didn’t I read somewhere that he would still retain his FA eligibility by one day if he came back right on the 1st?

by oconnobe on Aug 29, 2009 10:15 AM CDT reply actions  

game time, August 31

I could certainly be wrong, but it is my reading of the CBA that the deadline for recalling JJ is game time for the Nashville game of August 31st. Because if he is still ‘eligible’ to play in that game, then August 31st becomes the 20th day of his assignment to the minors, and he loses the MLB service time.

I surely hope McCalvy is wrong…

by robertearle on Aug 29, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

You are correct

The date of the option is included, so August 12-31 is 20 days.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow that is pretty cold blooded by Brewers management

How does the fact that he will not be a FA affect his trade value since he is obviously done here in Milwaukee that bridge is burning like a campfire right now.

Everything is just swell :)

by WSB Chris on Aug 29, 2009 10:57 AM CDT reply actions  

How is it ‘cold blooded’. JJ’s bat sent him to AAA – manglement just arranged the travel?

Last time I checked, teams are still judged by wins and loses – not compassion. JJ had plenty of opportunity to keep himself in the majors. He didn’t need hit .330 and slug 30 HRs a season… just hit his .250-.275 and he would still be with the club.

Doug Melvin needs to put the best pieces on the field every day – and JJ wasn’t the best SS on the team… hell even Craigers was out performing him and I think that it is reasonable to speculate that if Rickie hadn’t gone down, a change would have been made sooner.

by Saberilliterate on Aug 29, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Weeks is a starting pitcher now?

I think Hardy deserved to be sent down but I also think that if our pitching hadn’t imploded it might never have happened. The lack of offensive production from the SS position is pretty far down the list of reasons why this season went south.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 29, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

What about Suppan and Kendall's?

Either way, that’s a lot of weight to put on one second baseman (whose production has been actually equaled by his replacements, no less).

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not cold-blooded...

it’s business. When players leave the team for free agency (and more money) or go to arbitration, is it considered “cold-blooded” as well?

by sjlee on Aug 29, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

And another thing that I guess will surprise some people...
Manager Ken Macha met with Melvin on Friday afternoon to discuss September callups. The plan calls for three pitchers, two infielders and one outfielder, but those promotions will be staggered through the first week of September, because the Triple-A Nashville Sounds are bidding to make the playoffs.

by Zeyes on Aug 29, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions  

They've delayed callups for that reason before

2005 and 2006, I think.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but some still didn't wanna believe me a couple of weeks ago.

Ironically enough, there was a significant cross-section of people who both believed that a) not pissing off Hardy was a major consideration for the club and b) not pissing off our AAA affiliate wasn’t. Turns out both went a little differently…

by Zeyes on Aug 29, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I still don't think Brewers management cares if Nashville makes the playoffs from a money standpoint

They want their players to be getting regular at bats. If we were in the mlb playoff race, things might be different. Fact of the matter is, they’d rather have players starting in Nashville than riding the bench in Milwaukee

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Aug 29, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

How about the argument that he isn't the Brewers starting shortstop?

And that Craig Counsell is a better, more flexible backup, making AAA the best place for Hardy to be right now?

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is good news

Imagine the Brewers offense without Bill Hall. Wait. What?

by Dikembe Meiztombo on Aug 29, 2009 12:21 PM CDT reply actions  

Business is business

Hardy was never going to get many at bats in September anyway. Now it’s just going to be awkward for everyone when he does come up again.

I think this means there’s little doubt they’ll be moving him in the off season and I guess this increases his trade value. I hope he’ll be able to clear his head and find a positive attitude with his new team. I really like him.

by ecocd on Aug 29, 2009 12:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Part of running a good business is treating your employees with respect

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Aug 29, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Now it's disrespect?

The Brewers have gone out of their way to put Hardy in a position to succeed, and while there was no viable replacement, that was OK. This year, he should have been sent down by the beginning of July, because he was not producing and Estrada was available to evaluate in the position.

To claim that waiting most of the season for him to turn it around is somehow disrepecting Hardy is ridiculous.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

On most other teams, Hardy wouldn’t even have entered the year with the full four years of service time because one of his slumps in previous years would already have earned him a temporary ticket to Nashville.

In any case, there’s already a safety net for the players in that the CBA gives them the right to veto being optioned if they have 5+ years of service time, exactly to prevent teams from messing with imminent free agents’ service time. But there still need to be reasonable limits, and I really don’t get the outrage here because it implicitly supports much further expanded player rights in this regard. If another player were to enter a season with 4 years and 50 days of service time, would people argue that this player shouldn’t be sent down after June because it would leave him just short of 5 years, too? (I would hope not.) Why not disallow optioning players who are arbitration-eligible altogether while we’re at it?

Everybody’s up in arms about Hardy now, but if the rules were different and the team was hamstrung by it, you can bet many of the same people would complain about it, too.

by Zeyes on Aug 29, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Hey the players are cold blooded when they become FA

As Michael Corleone said its not personal it’s business.

CC left for the huge money and I do not blame him my guess is when Prince is a FA he will take the money and run and good for him.

So when the team acts like this I figure it all balances out.

Everything is just swell :)

by WSB Chris on Aug 29, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Alex Gordon is in a similar situation with the Royals

I didn’t realize that until a couple days ago.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 1:24 PM CDT reply actions  

The rules work both ways

He gets full credit for 2006, right? The year he spent on the DL after sliding into Fasano’s leg?

Hopefully, Hardy is more levelheaded about this than some fans are.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 1:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Indentured Servitude

Look, I understand that MLB probably wouldn’t survive in its current form without the modern version of the Reserve System, and that the current system is a good compromise, maybe as good as it can be.

But – to steal a bit from the article at the link below – if Curt Flood was a well-paid slave, and modern players are well paid indentured servants, then JJ Hardy is a well paid indentured servant who is having a year added to his servitude because he missed a couple days of work last week with the flu.

The “letter of the law” of the CBA may well allow the Brewers to do what they’re doing, but I can’t see any way that it doesn’t at least violate the spirit of the agreement; just because the Brewers can do what they’re doing doesn’t make it right. It galls me mightily.

It’s just so fricking PETTY!

http://pitchersandpoets.com/2009/07/09/nate-mclouth-and-the-modern-indentured-servitude/comment-page-1/

by robertearle on Aug 29, 2009 1:48 PM CDT reply actions  

If only I could be so oppressed

Seriously, indentured servitude? Let’s have some perspective here. The baseball system limits the income of players until they have established themselves at a major league level for 6 years. I’d be overjoyed to make over $300,000 per year for 3 years, and then somewhere around a couple million a year for a few years, before I could FINALLY make a little money to support my family.

As mentioned above, Hardy already missed an entire year with the flu, and he gets credit for that year. He’s being penalized for not playing well, and it should have happened a lot sooner than it did. Maybe if it happened back in July, it wouldn’t be such a hot button now.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

May I recommend...

Well the, may I recommend that instead of hanging around posting comments on a weblog, you go out and develop a skill set for which $300K – or a couple million dollars – is the commensurate market value.

by robertearle on Aug 29, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe JJ Hardy can spend his time in AAA developing a skill in another field

Perhaps one where he is unaware of the rules governing his salary.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thats absolutely ridiculous

He’s not a servant by any means at all. He gets paid millions of dollars, good performance or not, to play freaking baseball. And I’m assuming you’re saying that a “couple days of work last week with the flu” somehow translates well with him playing poorly basically all year. It doesn’t help the team at all for JJ to be riding the bench in the majors now while he’s slumping for so long. It’s called professionalism. He’s not down there to be punished and he’s certainly not remaining there to be punished. He seems like a smart, level-headed guy and if he is, along with Melvin, he’ll be professional and courteous about it knowing it’s nothing against him.

"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome

by zsxander567 on Aug 29, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Make all players free agents every year

Then see who is complaining about salaries.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

So here's a question

At what point does sending a player down to AAA pass from being good for his development, an acceptable move for the team, or whatever you want to call it, to violating the spirit of the agreement?

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sometime before literally the last day they could do it and still cost him the service time and the extra year.

Because (as noted above regarding five year players) that’s when the Brewers did it; literally the last day they could.

by robertearle on Aug 29, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umm, no, it's not literally the last day.

Unless you’re also of the opinion that all 40-man roster players are entitled to being called up exactly on September 1st (and to being called up at all), an opinion you probably wouldn’t find much agreement with among both baseball fans and those on the “inside”.

by Zeyes on Aug 29, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm curious about how trade value

When J.J. was first sent down, we were all howling about how this would kill his trade value (he hasn’t helped out much by not playing particularly well in AAA, either). Now, this move adds another year of team control, which, as ecocd noted above, should boost his trade value some.

So what’s the net effect of this whole ordeal on J.J.’s trade value?

by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 29, 2009 2:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Whoops

Just ignore the ‘how’ in the subject line.

by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 29, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

It depends on how his play is improved.

I’d have to think that an extra year of control helps his trade value, though.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Aug 29, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

The extra year is good

but the fact that they pretty much have to trade him now would definitely decrease his trade value.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Aug 29, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Weren't they in that situation regardless of whether they sent him down?

I mean, did anyone really think that a team with Milwaukee’s resources was going to let Escobar go and sign Hardy to an extension?

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 29, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Another question at issue...

how does this affect his next arbitration prospects? Besides the fact that his mediocre numbers this year won’t be very helpful in the first place, he’s going to be compared to a lower-service time group of players now, right? Of course he likely won’t actually make it to an arb hearing, but the Brewers ought to be able to get away with offering less money now than they would have if Hardy were to have exactly 5 years of service time next spring.

But yeah, he’s probably gone before the deadline for submitting arb contract proposals kicks in anyway. (The same question applies to his next team, of course.)

by Zeyes on Aug 29, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Service-time group of players changing

Kind of. The CBA says:

The arbitration panel shall, except for a Player with five or more years of Major League service, give particular attention, for comparative salary purposes, to the contracts of Players with Major League service not exceeding one annual service group above the Player’s annual service group.

I don’t know if that’s a hard-and-fast rule in hearings, but that’s how it’s supposed to be. I assume players with 5+ years are compared to similar players from the previous year.

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, I'm not as upset about this as I thought I'd be.

However, I would like to clear up what I AM upset about regarding this situation. I hope most of you can agree.

JJ Hardy has been playing like crap for quite some time. Alcides Escobar has been ready to play in the majors for quite some time. JJ was allowed to hurt the offense all year, and then sent down for just enough days to delay his service time. If you’re going to make the move to help his development, do it in July, before we’re out of the playoff race, so he’s not hurting the team by being in the majors. When you put him down for just enough days, it says to me that you’re not trying to help his development; you’re trying to delay his free agency.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, ""That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Aug 29, 2009 2:39 PM CDT reply actions  

What if they left him down until the end of the Sounds season?

Would that change things?

Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Aug 29, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it necessarily has to do with service time

Remember, they dumped Hall on the same day. It seems like the service time issue is a secondary factor.

Also, I don’t think Hardy’s value is such that teams are going to be beating down his door, even with the extra year of control. He simply hasn’t performed at the MLB level.

On the other hand, I could see how this gives the team a good year to evaluate Escobar, and to bring Hardy back with an extra year of control. But that’s how the minor leagues work. If it happens early, or in the middle of the process, no one notices. It’s still part of the process, though, and it doesn’t mean the team is exploiting his situation. It means he has been unlucky enough to play poorly at the wrong time.

by Marty McSuperFly on Aug 29, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

A lot of short memories

For a guy that was a top 5 MLB SS last year and gave the Brewers a lot of fine play, it is amazing how quickly some fans turn on him. Even though he obviously had a down year with the bat, he was still a “plus” player overall this year.

If I need a SS, I am indeed beating down the door for Hardy…a great fielder with a history of OPS around .800? Yes, I will take a whole lot of that please.

by badgermaniac on Aug 29, 2009 9:39 PM CDT reply actions  

Who's turning on him exactly?

"You have no honor!" - McClung to Fukudome

by zsxander567 on Aug 29, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

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