Zack Greinke, and the Goal of an MLB Team
Finals interrupted my ability to comment directly and at length on the acquisition of Zack Greinke. Those of you who have followed the site and comments closely in the past week probably have read much of what I have to say anyways. To sum up, I think it's a bold deal and a great deal, improving the team by an amount that gets them solidly in contention status. I'm not comfortable enough to throw a win number out there, but this team is clearly in the mix for a playoff spot.
Greinke was the perfect guy for this team to get. Here is a young pitcher in his prime who actually preferred to get traded to Milwaukee, and not only that, his refusal to go to a big market lowered the price it cost to acquire him. The Brewers got Greinke for an almost historically low price for a pitcher of his caliber. The combination of the small amount of teams Greinke would accept a trade to, the "deflated" trade market, and the Royals lack of leverage in needing to move Greinke gave the Brewers something they would not have been able to afford without the perfect circumstances. And he's not the typical high-caliber ace who has a consistent value from year-to-year, he's a guy whose ceiling as a pitcher is possibly unmatched by anyone in the history of baseball. Is it not possible to see Greinke, for the first time in his career playing meaningful baseball, carrying the Brewers to the playoffs with a historically great season? I usually don't buy the impact of a player improving their performance based on the team they are on, but if there was ever a player who might see a boost from playing on a contender, based on what I have read it would be Grienke. Is it a concern that many people report he did not give it his all last year? Sure. But I am excited about what it could mean for next year.
If I had outlined the best possible outcome for this offseason before it had begun, it would have looked a lot like what has happened. Melvin saw that the team had a pretty weak farm system, but no real need for a lot of hitting prospects in the next couple of years with the corners set (and Mat Gamel to fill in for the next man to leave, which will almost certainly be Fielder). He didn't see Brett Lawrie as a second basemen. And he saw players like Jeffress, Cain, and Odorizzi at what could be their highest point of value. With one more year of Fielder and Weeks available for sure, it's certainly time to make a push. With 2 of the top 15 picks in a loaded 2011 June Draft, the Brewers will have plenty of time to get some quality position players up through the system. And it's certainly possible for a smart team to piece together cheap platoons to get something close to league-average production in the meantime, a subject I will talk much more about next week sometime when I look at the shortstop and center field situations.
This is not about "sacrificing the future". If I see either the Greinke or Marcum trades characterized as that, I'm going to go ahead and vehemently disagree. In any one year, the goal for a franchise is to make the playoffs and then advance to the World Series. In the end, players are assets. Sometimes you trade a few pretty good ones for one really, really good one. If the Brewers had held on to the five players they dealt in the two trades, there's a good chance that come 2012 and 2013 the Brewers would be looking to deal their first round draft picks from this coming summer for a pitcher to help them get to the World Series.
It's extremely, extremely unlikely that a team's collection of talent in the minor leagues will come of age at the same time and produce a team of 15 players who are not just average producers, but substantially above-average players and make a team that wins 90-95 games. There are always going to be supplementary free agents, trade acquisitions, leveraging of players who can become useful down the road for players who are much more useful today. Baseball rewards that kind of behavior, and it's why you see bad teams sell at the deadline and good teams buy. Sometimes you're the seller, sometimes you're the buyer. This is a year that the Brewers are trying to win the World Series. They will probably be trying again in 2012. If they're able to sign Weeks to an extension and Gamel proves a capable replacement for Fielder, it will seem likely. Maybe injuries will ravage the squad, 2011 will be a disappointment, and Marcum and Greinke will be sold to teams who are "going for it" in 2012 for more young talent than the Brewers gave up to get them in the first place. There's no way of telling.
All that I can say for sure right now is that the Brewers have built a very strong team. Work isn't done, they find themselves in a spot where a marginal win has a great amount of value to them. They should not stop looking to upgrade, and I'll analyze what they can do within their budget to try to make the team even slightly better in a year in which 1 win might be the difference. But if there's one thing to take from this, it is don't worry about the future right now. Things can change so quickly. Maybe the big league team wins 65 games in 2013, and the farm system is top 5 in baseball, or maybe they extend Greinke and Weeks and add a few more pieces with minor leaguers and win the World Series in 2013. No one knows. But in my very humble opinion, this was a great move on every level, and it's going to be one heck of a ride this season. I'm back into the Brewers with more passion than I've had for some time, and I think a lot of people are going to feel the same way. This team is special, and I think we could be looking back at this offseason in late October 2011 and say, hey, I had a good feeling about this.
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Seems like a bad time to go for it...
with two strong teams in the NL Central and a potential juggernaut in the playoffs in Philadelphia. Even if Marcum/Greinke is a 10 win upgrade, the Brewers are still a notch below the Cardinals and Reds. And the Cardinals and Reds are a few notches below the Phils. I know it’s baseball and anything can happen, but the Brewers have cleaned out the farm for a so-so chance at the playoffs in 2011, a smaller chance in 2012, and real problems thereafter.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Not sure I agree
If we’re meant to wait until there’s no competition in the Central and there’s no dominant team in the NL (like the Phillies are) before we decide to start challenging, then we’re going to be waiting an awfully long time. I’d agree that we’ve a “so so” chance this year (I don’t think there’s anyone who reckons that the Cards or Reds don’t have a reasonable chance) and a smaller one next year, but for a club like the Brewers it seems worth going for. There’s a distinct possibility it all fails but, hey, you’ve gotta be in it to win it…
Ready and able to turn any discussion into one about Russell Oles Branyan...
It's a close race if the Brewers only hit their projections.
People are ignoring the age and upside of this team. Pre-season projected winners rarely every end up winning; you have to gamble on upside to make it to the World Series, and the Brewers suddenly have that in spades.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
(Actually, I don't think it's a close race at all. I was just being polite...)
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
The Reds are also pretty young with upside.
I am not sure who you are referring to on the Brewers as having upside. Lucroy maybe? We have a pretty good idea what the rest of the guys bring to the team.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
I couldn't disagree more
How many members of the Brewers are past their prime, two? (Wolf/Hawkins)
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
No but most are in their prime and have already had good years.
How much upside do Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart and McGehee have? I didn’t say they would backslide. Just there isn’t much room to go up.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Maybe.
But even then the upside is all of those guys matching their career bests in the same season.
I think there’s a reasonable possibility that Fielder, Weeks, Braun, etc. all improve on their career bests too. After all, most of the team is just now entering the traditional peak age range.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
I really really disagree with this
The Reds are balanced and the Cardinals have lots of ability, but they are hardly dominant. There is no team in the division that is going to plop down 95 wins, and there’s a few teams who play like you’ve got the weekend off. Right now is a fantastic time to take the division. As for the Phillies… well, it’ll be a NLCS for the ages.
by nullacct on Dec 23, 2010 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this...
Probably each team has a roughly 30% of winning the division… The problem with the move is that it’s mostly for this year only. If it set the Brewers up for, say, 2-4 years of having a 30% chance at the division, it would be better.
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
I'm just trying to make sense of things...
Brewers’ fans seem to love this move, for obvious reasons, and I’m just wondering if you guys think this puts you in the driver’s seat for 2011, or if you think you have a good chance in 2012 even without Weeks and Fielder, or if you think that the long term ramifications aren’t going to be that bad…
Sign Carl Pavano!!!
Fair enough, maybe I was being too harsh.
I personally think this gives the Brewers a much better than 30% chance to make the playoffs, without hurting the future all that much. Having Greinke gives the Brewers a decent chance to compete in 2012 even without Prince, assuming they can add some solid pieces through free agency. I also don’t think it compromised our future much either; Escobar and Cain might be solid regulars, but they aren’t difference makers. Jeffress is a bullpen arm (and probably our second best bullpen prospect behind Braddock) and Odorizzi is years away. If we had kept them I don’t see how our chances in 2013-beyond were substantially different than they are now.
Any team that has Braun and Gallardo signed cheaply through 2015 isn’t inherently doomed in the future. People on the internet overvalue prospects way too much. Trading away a few B-grade prospects isn’t mortgaging the future.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
by SRB on Dec 23, 2010 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If an NLCS vs the Phillies is for the ages...
Then we’d have to be going into it as slight favourites. Obviously both teams have the modern age fairly well covered, but recent carbon dating suggests our right-fielder enables us to gain points for both the paleolithic and, possibly, neolithic periods. Of course, there are many who would claim that this advantage in the less “civilised” ages may be negated by the influence of the notoriously primitive Phillies supporters but their immediate impact on the outcome is likely to be less than that of Caveman Hart. That would just leave us the World Series to worry about…
Ready and able to turn any discussion into one about Russell Oles Branyan...
by MrLeam on Dec 23, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
This just seems foolish to me
I just completely disagree with the notion that those teams are so much better than the Brewers. The NL Central was terrible last season (including the Crew) and the Cardinals have gained what? Lance freaking Fat Puma Berkman? Let’s not forget ‘THE RIOT!!’ who has been a laugh riot the last couple seasons. The Reds haven’t done much of anything either. Not saying the Brewers are a lock for anything. But the Cardinals were not exceptional last season. In a very weak NL Central they only won 86 games. The Reds had an incredible year from some unlikely sources. You really think Scott Rolen will repeat 2010? They have talent, and are in the mix, but their rotation is officially weaker than the Brewers, and their offense is probably weaker as well. If they keep Chapman in the ‘pen they probably have a comparable or better bullpen, but that’s subjective.
The Phillies are definitely the favorites in the NL, for obvious reasons. But they got flat out beat by the SF Giants in the postseason. And Lee proved in the WS that he is beatable. Halladay was good, and Lee will probably be good again, but there’s no guarantee that they will cruise through the playoffs, as they couldn’t even do it this year. Is Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels a scary rotation in a 7 game series? Sure, but they certainly aren’t unbeatable. They are all old, and if they stay healthy, they all see to have logged ~200 innings by the postseason.
The Brewers have 3 innings eaters, and you hope Gallardo can take the next step. The difference is MIlwaukee’s rotation is a lot younger in all of the spots. Even the Cardinals have three 32+ old pitchers in their rotation. Carpenter being the oldest, and who knows if he can keep up what he’s been doing. I also don’t know that Wainwright is going to continue winning close to 20 games every season, as that’s very difficult to do. Garcia had a tremendous season, and his statistics (other than ERA) would seem to tell you he won’t repeat that much success.
It’s all a crap shoot really, but the Phillies could lose Oswalt and Lee or Halladay for a month or two and be completely done. I know it could happen to the Brewers or the Reds or whoever as well, but I’m just saying.
If Marcum and Greinke provide 10 more wins
you’d assume some of those would come at the expense of the Cards and the Reds (who owned us in 2010), right?
I’m not smart enough to look at the other stuff and do anything but drool and mumble.
by Rubie Q on Dec 23, 2010 6:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
This isn't 2010
We are talking about 2011, do the Reds and Cardinals get a 10 game buffer next year because they beat up on the Crew’s pitching staff (who didn’t)? The Pirates beat us a few times as well, so I suppose they’ve got a fighting shot.
I don't think the Reds can repeat what they did in 2010.
How many last AB wins did they have last year? I’m not saying that they’re not good, but I think they got a little lucky last year.
My goodness.
by BrewHaHeather on Dec 23, 2010 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
Totally agree with Jordan
Stated something similar in today’s mug. I think as Milwaukee fans, we are always in a “rebuilding” mindset. Most of our current roster is home grown. So, we hate to see prospects get traded because we think of them just like Braun, Prince, Rickie, etc. This trade will have the same effect the Sabathia trade did. We have a better rotation, bullpen, and offense than we did that season. So, do I think we can do better than 90 wins? Yes. Is that good enough to win the central, well, that I don’t know.
As for the future, Melvin sees solid players with loads of potential in the farm. After some of last years picks get another year of playing time, lets see what the farm looks like. How were Lawrie and Odorizzi seen in their first years? I may be the only one not worried by our farm status, but I think as the year goes on, many others see what I’m talking about.
by Mr. McGehee on Dec 23, 2010 4:48 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I am so excited about the upcoming season.
I have not been this excited in years. I’m dreaming of flying back to Wisconsin in October to watch baseball.
Am I getting ahead of myself? Probably. Do I care? No. This is first real chance we’ve had in years.
Are there risks with Melvin’s trades? Of course there are. But there is also a great chance for tremendous rewards. It would have been easy for him to sit back, sign a mediocre free agent (Pavano anyone?) or two, hope to be in it in June, and then maybe trade for an overpriced rental before the deadline. Instead he made a couple brilliant moves that makes us real contenders from day 1.
Small market teams have relatively small windows. Here’s to Melvin giving us a real chance during one of ours.
by Oakland Brewer Fan on Dec 23, 2010 5:47 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
If the defense holds up...
it should be a special year. I think the offense will do its part, and Roenicke will attempt to promote consistency in the Brewers hitters.
As for the rotation, I think they’re a lot better with Capuano. Which by the way, if they get him then Parra or Narveson becomes expendable, maybe trade one of them and one of the recently acquired minor league guys for Jack Wilson? Just saying.
But Gallardo, Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, Capuano looks really good to me. Not great after Marcum, but still good.
I could see Greinke really utilizing his potential to the fullest while finally playing for something. I really see Gallardo taking that next big step this year and really looking amazing. I hope I’m right, but I think he could definitely contend for the Cy Young. Marcum, all you need out of him is his last 3 year’s of statistics. Just pitch 200+ innings and keep your ERA in 3.75 range. Wolf, as long as he does basically the same thing as I just said, but maybe have his ERA more towards 4.00 then we’ll be good. Capuano is a mystery, but if he can really bounce back he could have a very nice ERA as well.
That to me, signals at least a very good shot at a postseason berth, division or otherwise.
Capuano
Even if he decides to come back to the Brewers (which isn’t a given), what makes you think he’ll be better than Narveson?
Marcum should be a solid starter, but I wouldn’t say all we need out of him is his “last 3 year’s of statistics”, because that includes 2009 when he didn’t even pitch.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
I said 'his last 3 years of statistics'
He didn’t play in 2009, so I clearly wasn’t referring to that year.
Excellent post and I have to agree
In addition, one of the things I’m most excited for is that I think this squad is going to end up having a lot of fun playing the game again. It always seemed last year there was never that spark in all these young guys that we saw in the 08 season. I think this is one area that actually will reflect more on our new manager than anything, but I’m really excited to watch our team play like it’s a game again. As much as it urks the old school individuals around the league, I think this team could do some great things when they are allowed to express a little personality and I hope we get to see that this year.
BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.
by MadJimiBrewha on Dec 23, 2010 6:05 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Another reason that Greinke is awesome, too.
He said the Brewers’ “attitude” was one of the reasons he wanted to come here.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
by SRB on Dec 23, 2010 6:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hell
Imagine how keen he’d have been to move if we still did the untucking…
Ready and able to turn any discussion into one about Russell Oles Branyan...
We will
We’re no longer being run by Keebler, we’ll be having fun again

by nullacct on Dec 23, 2010 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I can't wait to untuck at work....
Those sixth graders are going to think i’m inSANE…
don't forget to brush your teeth.
I believe the order to stop untucking
Came from higher up than Macha, IIRC.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 23, 2010 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah because we were supposedly being targeted by other clubs for doing it.
What was the result of not untucking?
Our batters got hit more than any others in baseball.
I say untuck. Screw ’em. If they want to throw bean balls that just increases our OBP.
For your health!
by menchkins on Dec 24, 2010 4:34 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Tell me this is a shirt
I would wear it everyday.
by Mr. McGehee on Dec 23, 2010 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
untucked, I assume
Too close for missiles, I’m switching to Ueck.
The Brewers WILL....
be the dominant team of the central
have the best overall ERA in the central
score the most runs in the NL
I just called my shot.
don't forget to brush your teeth.
by Drew C on Dec 23, 2010 8:00 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Payroll figures agree with your roster make up
I put together a summary of postseason participants and their opening day payroll and the cutoff is right around 85-90 million. If your team isn’t spending that much you’re not headed to the playoffs. That pretty much means exactly what you said. A mix of young talent and a handful of high salary stars is the recipe for success. I’m so glad to have Mark A in charge.
Minecraft is like digital Legos. I like digital things and I like Legos. I am now addicted to Minecraft.
by ecocd on Dec 23, 2010 8:40 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I'm so amped.
This ENTIRE post, off-season, trade, can be summed up almost completely by these two quotes:
they find themselves in a spot where a marginal win has a great amount of value to them
1 win might be the difference.
I realize I’ve removed them entirely from their context, but they are, in my mind, the two single most important quotes in your entire article, Jordan. I can’t remember if I’ve ever felt the way I do about the Brewers prior to a season beginning. Let’s be honest—who really thought before the 2008 season that the team would be playing October baseball? If you were one of those people, and you’re reading this, I hope you put about $2,000 on the Brewers to make the playoffs prior to the season beginning in 2008.
Before the season starts, the team mentality is going to be ‘if we need to add a piece to push us over that marginal win hump, we’re going to do it.’
I can’t wait!
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
My concern is
If we need to add a piece, who would we trade? We’ve got almost nothing of value left in the farm to trade if we need one more big piece.
My goodness.
by BrewHaHeather on Dec 23, 2010 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
Corey Hart?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 23, 2010 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
backtocali
Celebrating the addition of Greinke and mourning the loss of my man crush Cain
by molitorfan on Dec 24, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Seems like a pretty bad idea to go over budget in 2010 when we had little chance of getting to the playoffs and worrying about the budget in 2011. After gutting the farm system we need to do everything we can to make ourselves contenders this year and next. SS seems like the easiest to upgrade.
I don’t really want to see Gamel in the majors using service time if he isn’t starting but he looks like the best option we have for a bench bat.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Interesting SS projections:
Assuming Cruz and Counsell match their ZiPS-projected wOBA, and assuming Cruz is worth +9.0 UZR/150 and Counsell +7.0 UZR/150, 110 GS from Cruz and 52 GS from Counsell would be worth around 2.2 WAR (i.e. above-average major league production).
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
Does Counsell hit righties better?
If so, how would those numbers change in a platoon?
"If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra
A Counsell/Betancourt platoon might be interesting:
Career splits:
Counsell
.320 wOBA vs. RHP
.301 wOBA vs. LHP
Betancourt
.295 wOBA vs. RHP
.331 wOBA vs. LHP
Cruz (very limited MLB sample size, but I don’t know where any minor league splits are available anymore)
.286 wOBA vs. RHP
.167 wOBA vs. LHP
I’ll try and estimate what we could expect from a Counselcourt platoon quick.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
Assuming Betancourt starts against every LHP, and assuming about one third of major league starters are LHP, would give Betancourt about 54 starts. Counsell probably can’t start 108 games, so maybe they could work a three-way platoon with Counsell starting 54 and Cruz starting 54 vs. RHP.
This isn’t very scientific, but Betancourt’s overall ZiPS wOBA is .04 points higher than his career wOBA, so if we raise his career wOBA vs. LHP by a proportionate .04 points, it gives him a .335 wOBA in those 54 GS vs. LHP (that’s very generous though, since LHP don’t pitch the entire game). Same thing for Counsell gives him a .316 wOBA in his 54 games vs. RHP. Cruz I’ll just leave at .291.
Using those numbers, the three-way platoon projects at around 2.6 WAR.
If, instead of 54 games to Cruz, we give 54 vs. LHP to Betancourt and 54 vs. RHP for Betancourt, and 54 vs. RHP to Counsell, it’s around 1.9 WAR. Still, that’s not bad. Maybe a platoon is the way to go if they insist on starting Yuniesky.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
It's possible, but not probable
When’s the last time you’ve seen a 3 player platoon? And has it ever worked?
Doubtful. If you’re doing a platoon, do it as Cruz/Counsell. Betancourt will still get AB’s and some playing time but not a whole lot.
Cruz/Counsell would be ideal overall
Though they both seem to favor RHP. If the organization insists on playing Betancourt, he seems to moderately favor LHP, and Counsell/Cruz the opposite. It might mitigate some of Betancourt’s suckitude
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
don't care
With this line up I don’t care what the SS hits. I want a defensive SS. This infield will be a sieve for ground balls. A weak fielding SS will only make it worse.
Tim Bring back the chalet,frank charles at the wurlitzer organ, bob betts at the mic, and the barrell man logo!!!!
by storminTAZZ on Dec 24, 2010 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
kranitz
Hopefully I am going to be the first person to say Rick Kranitz is the greatest pitching coach EVER.
Tim Bring back the chalet,frank charles at the wurlitzer organ, bob betts at the mic, and the barrell man logo!!!!
Not convinced yet
I’m not even sure that he’s got a signature move, let alone one that will work with our current pitchers. Admittedly things can only move in a positive direction given the strong positive correlation between “hand-on-shoulder” and “appalling starting pitching” last year, but I think we’ve got to wait to see what move he’s gonna go with before jumping to conclusions…
Ready and able to turn any discussion into one about Russell Oles Branyan...
by MrLeam on Dec 24, 2010 7:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
tongue
My tongue was planted FIRMLY in my cheek. Since so much $$$$ was given to a pitching coach for obviously no apparent reason. Now Kranitz will become the second coming of Mike Maddux now that we have real starting pitchers. Crappy starters= crappy pitching coach ; great starters= great pitching coach Just ask Leo Mazzone
Tim Bring back the chalet,frank charles at the wurlitzer organ, bob betts at the mic, and the barrell man logo!!!!
by storminTAZZ on Dec 24, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
In the hunt
I don’t think these moves make the winning of the central a guarantee. The cardinals have done very little to important from last year. The reds got career years from a few players and rode the wave of the playoffs. These deals that Melvin has made put the Brewers in the hunt for the Central title without a doubt. They finished 14 wins under the reds, I do think they have picked up 10 or so wins by adding two good pitchers. My concern is Axford repeating the season he had. He’s not a lock…………….remember Turnbow was in this position a few years ago. Unless Hawkins can step in and close or Braddock.
Tim Bring back the chalet,frank charles at the wurlitzer organ, bob betts at the mic, and the barrell man logo!!!!
defense
Would like to see a SS signed that is a great glove no bat. This infield defense will cost a few games and a solid defensive SS would help alot. I don’t think day in day out Counsell is the answer.
Tim Bring back the chalet,frank charles at the wurlitzer organ, bob betts at the mic, and the barrell man logo!!!!
by storminTAZZ on Dec 24, 2010 7:50 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

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