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To save money, the Brewers should kick Jeff Suppan to the curb

With the regular season only a few Rickie Weeks away (yay!), the Brewers' roster is slowly starting to take form: we know, for example, that Hurricane Iribarren won't be on the 2010 club, and things aren't looking good for Chuck Lofgren's future as a Brewer either.  (Adam Heether too, according to Tom H., but what does he know.) The rotation is also rounding into shape: we know that Gallardo, Wolf, and Davis are in, and Manny Parra is pitching well enough that he has pretty much secured a spot too.  That leaves Dave Bush, Chris Narveson, and Jeff Suppan vying for one rotation spot.  The loser of the Rotation Spot Sweepstakes still has hope: there is also a spot open for a reliever, given that David Riske will open the season on the DL, and John Axford (9.00 ERA so far this spring) and Scott Schoeneweis (12.00 ERA) have done little to lay claim to it.

In his nifty 2010 Brewers Preview for SBNation, our own Kyle Lobner wrote what we all fear is true, in our heart of hearts:

Suppan’s veteran status and huge contract probably give him the inside track for the final spot: the Brewers still have to pay him, even if they release him.

That certainly has been the conventional wisdom all spring: that Suppan's salary essentially gives him a playing spot.  But that got me thinking: why should this be so?

Star-divide

First, to be clear: of Dave Bush, Chris Narveson, and Jeff Suppan, Suppan is the least likely to have a good 2010.  Consider:

  • Suppan's ERA has gone up in each of the past 5 seasons. In 2009, of all MLB starters to top 160 IP, his ERA was the third worst.
  • Suppan's WHIP has gone up every season since he joined Pittsburgh in 2003. In 2009, of those same starters throwing 160 IP, his WHIP was the highest in the majors, by a large margin
  • Suppan has been below replacement value for the last two years.

Bill James, Marcel, and CHONE all project Suppan to have an ERA over 5, with CHONE going as high as 5.43.  Despite professing excitement at working with our new pitching coach, the first few innings of spring training have not yielded any surprises ---  a 5.40 ERA, compared to Bush's 2.70 ERA, or the one hit that Narveson has allowed in the same number of innings as Suppan.  Although I admit to being a bit jaded, I really can't envision a 2010 ERA for The Soup below 5, a much higher ERA than what is being projected for Narveson and Bush.  Unless something really surprising happens in the remaining weeks of spring training, the logical move to me would be to put Parra as the #4 starter, Bush as the #5, and Narveson as the #6/bullpen guy.  (In 47 IP last season, Narveson had a 3.83 ERA and 1.30 WHIP with 46 Ks; even if he can't maintain those numbers over a full season, the bar he'd need to jump over to surpass Suppan's numbers is about an inch off the ground.)

So it's pretty easy to make the case that Suppan shouldn't start.  It's just as easy to make the case that he shouldn't be a reliever.  For one, with the exception of one game in 2003, Suppan has not entered a game as a reliever since the Clinton administration, whereas Narveson and (to a much lesser degree) Dave Bush have both started and relieved as Brewers.  Second, Suppan's pitching shortcomings are not those that are abated by relieving.  It's not that he gets gassed after a few innings --- quite the contrary: last year, Suppan's ERA over the first 30 pitches is about 7.50. It's not that he only has one or two pitches in his repertoire --- he has NO pitches, as witnessed by his 2009 MLB-worst .899 OPS allowed, more than 50 points worse than any other pitcher in baseball with 160 IP.

Frankly, there is no performance-related measure to justify Suppan making the team.  Does he stink?  Yes.  Do you have better options?  Yes.  Then that's it --- his making the team would then have to be not because of ability, but because of things that aren't quantifiable, things like veteran savvy, grit, or leadership.

Or the front office's reluctance to admit that Suppan was the worst Brewers signing this side of Jeffrey Hammonds. Jeff Suppan is due $12.5 million this season, and has a $2 million buyout for 2011, should the Brewers choose to exercise it.  Of course, it's a virtual impossibility that Suppan will pitch well enough to "earn" his 2010 salary; for example, if one were to establish a 2009 salary for Soupy based on his performance, instead of giving him a salary to pitch for us, we would be sending him an invoice for $3 million.  If we were to simply release Suppan, we'd still owe him $14.5 million, as Kyle pointed out, and paying 1/7th of your total team salary to a player to NOT pitch for you is not the sort of PR pill a (small market) team wants to swallow.  The easy decision would be to keep him on the team, try to hide him on the pitching staff where his innings can do the least harm, and ride out the rest of the contract.  Next season, you pay him his $2 million severance and be done, all the while thanking your lucky stars that Barry Zito is out there, providing cover for this awful, awful contract.

However, you can make the case that keeping Suppan for all of 2010 not only hurts your ballclub, but it also hurts your bottom line. (This is above and beyond any revenue lost by would-be customers not coming out to see a game started by a guy sporting a .309 BAA in 2009).

The $12.5 million/$2 million buyout are sunk costs: no matter what you do with Suppan, you're stuck paying him that money.  It is wholly independent of performance, too: whether he is an ace or a doorstop, he's getting that $14.5 million.  Once you get used to that idea, it gets harder and harder to justify actually playing him when his performance isn't helping your team.  $14.5 million for league-worst-ness is a recurring, year-long insult to Brewer fans.  For the league minimum, you can replace Suppan with Narveson, someone who is valuable not only because of his presumed non-suckitude (the extent of which is unknown, though his numbers are promising), but because he is cheap, and will remain cheap for some time after 2010.  (Remember, if Suppan and Bush make the team, then Narveson is no longer a Brewer; even if Narveson is mediocre, mediocre talent for the league minimum is quite valuable in MLB-Land.)

Strictly based on performance, if you're OK with replacing Suppan with Narveson, then there might be money to be had.  Enter Rotoworld:

Suppan could be the odd man out in the Milwaukee rotation, even though he’s due $12 million this year. The Brewers would have to pick up the vast majority of that amount to have any hope of moving him. Maybe someone would give him a try for $1 million or so.

If Suppan can be traded for $1 million in salary relief, that would be a pretty good deal.  (It would be a fabulous deal if it means the other team gets to pick up the $2 million option in 2011.)  Is that possible?  I don't know, though it is pretty low-risk for a team looking for depth.  Even if you cut him and another team picks him up for the minimum salary (a la Bill Hall), then that's $400,000 you don't have to pay --- essentially, you'd've just paid for a year of Chris Narveson.

Could a move like this backfire? Possibly --- but the risk is pretty low.  For one, despite the idea that Suppan's new hand movement is giving him more action (snicker), I'm not convinced the Resurgence of the Suppan is at hand, not for a guy whose last 330-some innings were below replacement value.  For two, the Brewers have some depth at AAA, for a change: I believe that Capuano, Loe, Halama, Dillard, and Chris Smith are all options at Nashville if Narveson flames out.  (Are any of them worldbeaters at this point?  Perhaps not --- but again, we're only talking about replacing Suppan: if they're not significantly worse than him, it's at least a push.)

Most importantly, this is a team that could reasonably contend for the playoffs. I sincerely can't imagine a circumstance where Jeff Suppan helps us attain that goal, short of trading him within the NL Central.  Keeping him on the team, even in a relief role, means you don't take as much of a PR hit, but it also means you have to try to overcome some pretty bad pitching, and you lose Narveson to boot. Replacing Suppan with Narveson is a low-risk, low-cost move that can pay off on and off the field.

Comment 170 comments  |  37 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

I am absolutely with you on this

I am not convinced that The Mustache is, however. Hopefully you’ll get enough rec’s that he’ll drop in and take a read.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 14, 2010 5:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Bingo.

Particularly since our new pitching-savant has, almost certainly, suggested he can get Suppan to be productive again. Which is unfortunate, since saying “get this guy out of here” would have been a nice place to start his positive impact on the staff.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 14, 2010 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You're assuming Narveson gets claimed or doesn't re-sign as a minor league free agent with the team

If Suppan and Bush make the team, I mean. It’s entirely possible he would clear waivers, become a free agent for an hour or so, and re-sign with the Brewers. Not that it significantly changes anything you’ve written.

Also, all that depth at Nashville is still there whether they have Narveson or Suppan flaming out in the rotation.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 14, 2010 5:33 PM CDT reply actions  

How should the team handle that?

Should they DFA Narveson a few days early? If they do, they’ll know where they stand. If Narveson clears waivers and remains with the org, then he’s your #6 and you can safely cut Suppan.

If Narveson gets claimed, though, then the lack of remaining depth is a factor you can take into consideration when deciding whether or not to keep six starters on the Opening Day roster.

That's all I've got for you today, unless you're interested in some Chris Capuano/Tom Haudricourt Fan Fiction.

by Kyle Lobner on Mar 14, 2010 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

"the lack of remaining depth"

Frankly, there’s no guarantee Narveson can handle starting in the majors. One year ago, it didn’t look like he could handle starting in AAA. Tabbing him as the #6 because of one great September start and three decent ones is admitting you have no meaningful depth anyway.

As the article states, there are going to be a bunch of arms in AAA either way. If they lose Narveson and cut Suppan it won’t be the end of the world.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 14, 2010 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, that's true

I guess I like the idea of putting out there someone who could be good, as opposed to someone who has gone out of his way to prove that he can’t. But as far as I know, Narveson isn’t a guy that scouts are raving about.

Still, the #6 spot/reliever position seems to me to be a great spot for him. He won’t see many high-pressure outs, and you can see what kind of pitcher he is. Plus, it’s all compared to the devil you know in Jeff Suppan. Sure, the grass is always greener on the other side, but when the grass you’re standing in is already poop brown, what do you have to lose?

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 14, 2010 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I meant to add

Of the guys we have at AAA for depth, all options for the 6th starter spot, Narveson probably has the highest upside right now. I’d like to see him succeed and surprise the world, but I certainly don’t consider him to be the Adam Heether of the pitching staff.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 14, 2010 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

If they keep Narveson and give him a shot, cool

And I’m certainly not saying keeping Suppan is a better move. I just don’t think there’s much of a gain or loss by having Narveson in MIL/Nashville or pitching for some other club. Maybe he’ll be the pitching version of Nelson Cruz (the outfielder one), but I don’t think it’s worth being upset over if he winds up being a long reliever on another staff.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 4:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Who would claim him?

I can’t see a team claiming him to stick right into the starting rotation (again, it comes down to him not yet showing he’s really a MLB SP) and who’s going to shuffle their bullpen for a long reliever? It’s possible, I just don’t see it being all that likely.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 4:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Can I tell you

How much I enjoy the idea of Jeff Suppan paying the Brewers $3 million in restitution for his crimes against baseball last season?

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 14, 2010 5:56 PM CDT reply actions  

Any way we can sneak him onto the Cubs?

Having both Jeff Suppan and Carlos Silva on their team at the same time might finally cause the franchise to implode on itself.

I would give up Suppan for a couple million in salary relief, but I don’t think he’s entirely useless quite yet. He shouldn’t be in the opening day rotation, but he’s probably still a much better depth starter than guys like Halama/Loe/Smith.

As bad as Suppan was the last couple years, there’s still reason to expect him to improve in 2010. For example, if you drop his HR/FB rate for 2008 and 2009 back down to his career line, his ERAs become 4.55 and 5.12. The projection systems seem to disagree about a possible Suppan improvement, as does his incredibly high FIP over the last two seasons, but Suppan looks like a guy who has had high FIP his entire career but maintained a superior ERA (much like Doug Davis). I think there are guys who somewhat defy advanced metrics based on the way they pitch, kind of like how Ichiro is a guy who consistently maintains an especially high BABIP.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 14, 2010 7:17 PM CDT reply actions  

Math time!

It has be worth an extra million in beer sales alone to pay the Cubs to take him!

by PlusorMinusThree on Mar 14, 2010 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am pretty sure that the Brewers would pay his whole salary if it would guarantee that he would get the ball every 5 days for the C*bs.

by BrewCrewBrian on Mar 15, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kicking Suppan to the curb

Congrats on the amazing analysis… I couldn’t agree more. Suppan has been a complete waste of money for the Brewers. Watching him pitch last year I remember stating aloud that not only did he not deserve his ridiculous salary but Suppan should have to pay the Brewers for the jersey he was issued! The only way his stint with the Brewers could end any worse would be if they had to lose either Bush or Narveson in order to keep him.

The money they owe Soup is gone- nothing they can do about it, but that doesn’t mean you deliberately make the team worse by keeping him on the team. Bush has always been a consistant starter- at times has even been great, and Narveson deserves at least another look in 2010. The idea of trading Suppan for anything they can get is a good one. Either way, time to cut our loses with this guy. Look, they didn’t want to bring back Looper because he gave up too many HRs (I guess that was the reason) and he was 14-8! Suppan would have been lucky and considered ‘back to his previous form’ if he had produced Looper’s numbers last year.

Either way, after another cold winter in Milwaukee, let’s bring on the season. Go Brewers!

by gweb1 on Mar 14, 2010 9:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Gonna have to disagree on one thing

Dave Bush has been a lot of things, but consistent ain’t one of them.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 15, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

But at least Bush is decent sometimes.

by BrewCrewBrian on Mar 20, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're right

I agree with everything you said. But Melvin has too much invested in Suppan. He’s going to give him every opportunity to not make him look foolish.

by mnbrewer on Mar 14, 2010 9:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Suppan

Yeah, I get that mnbrewer. God forbid Melvin looks like a fool.

I like the idea of sneaking him onto the Cubs.. maybe just give him as a gift! The one stipulation is that he is in the rotation for every series against the Brewers.

Kidding aside, maybe he will surprise us this year, but don’t count on it. Never been much for shuffling old career numbers around just to try and come up with good ‘if this, then that’ scenarios, though. Good pitchers simply need to get good hitters out in key situations most of the time. Even the best will fail sometimes, but will succeed most of the time. It’s that simple for me, and Suppan has not shown to be able to do that in the last couple years. Don’t get me wrong, I used to be a huge fan; was excited when the Brewers signed him, but the experiment has failed.

by gweb1 on Mar 14, 2010 9:54 PM CDT reply actions  

gift

I’d love it if we left him at the doorstep of 1060 West Addison in a basket.

by rootsmaneuver on Mar 15, 2010 2:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Isn't that where Elwood Blues lives?

Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.

by Yar Nivek on Mar 15, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

He used to be outrageously awesome

and it’s beating a dead horse. Also he’s pitching well again now anyways, so it’s just dumb.

by Donald Driver on Mar 14, 2010 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think I was ripping on him

I do think that the Brewers have managed to avoid a lot of attention re: Suppan’s contract because of Zito’s contract, though.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Zito was never outrageously awesome...

The fact that he won the Cy Young in 2002 (basically just because he led the AL in Wins) has to be one of the most ridiculous sports award votes in history.

That said, people do sometimes tend to criticize that contract for the wrong reasons (i.e. that Zito is a terrible pitcher instead of that Zito is a decent pitcher who was given a ridiculously huge contract) though I don’t think that’s what roguejim was doing.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 15, 2010 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

23-5 with a 2.75 ERA

pretty outrageous and Cy Young deserving. Pedro’s got 3 already anyways.

by Donald Driver on Mar 15, 2010 1:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he was really good before that contract.

He just hasn’t been able to live up to it. Not many pitchers could.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Mar 15, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pedro’s stats that year:
20-4, 2.26 ERA, 0.92 WHIP, 10.79 K/9, 5.98 K/BB (2.24 FIP, 8.3 WAR)

Not only should Zito not have gotten a single vote for Cy Young, but if you look back at the season using advanced metrics, you see that he wasn’t even that outstanding (3.87 FIP, 4.4 WAR). Zito ranked 11th in the AL that year by WAR. That’s really good, but nowhere near the tier of outrageously good pitchers.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 15, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

2002 is the first season that Fangraphs has WAR data for. Obviously neither stat would have been considered by the people voting for the Cy Young (they probably still aren’t today), but I intended two different points:

1) Zito never deserved a Cy Young; there were a number of AL pitchers clearly better by any metric other than Wins, including Pedro Martinez, Roy Halladay, Derek Lowe, etc.

2) Now we can look back and see that Zito wasn’t even all that amazing. He was very good, but not “outrageously awesome,” despite the Cy Young win.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 15, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

any metric other than wins?

That includes ERA and strikeouts, of which he was third in the MLB in both so that is simply not true. Pedro was the only one who was better that year.

by Donald Driver on Mar 15, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Derek Lowe: 21-8, 2.58 ERA, 0.97 WHIP

That’s not also better? Zito was an extraordinary lucky pitcher that year who even with his unrealistically good ERA/win total had no business winning the Cy Young.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 15, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well it would seem that the same thing happened in the A.L. that year

that happened in the N.L. this year. But you’re not getting my point here. What he did that year was certainly outstanding enough to win a Cy Young and I don’t really think that the fact that those two Sox had some better numbers means that he didn’t deserve a single vote as you said earlier. Also I really don’t think he was lucky to have that win-loss record considering his sparkling ERA and he wasn’t lucky to have that ERA either considering his strikeout numbers. I can see why people voted for him over those guys: one already had 3 and the other was in his first year of real eligibility. Another thing they take into account pretty heavily is innings pitched and he threw more than either. Also I’m not going to begrudge him his award; there have been a lot of pitchers with worse numbers than he that have won the award.

by Donald Driver on Mar 15, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Mark it down

because I completely agree with SRB!

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

The interesting thing about Suppan

It’s very rare to have such a disparity between salary and performance. Generally speaking, you kind of expect a basic correlation between how good a guy is and how much he’s getting paid. There are exceptions, of course: Ryan Braun is good and cheap, while Bill Hall was overpaid and underperforming in his last seasons as a Brewer. Still, the fact that they stand out so much reinforces the one-to-one correlation you generally expect: the really talented guys get paid a boatload, the marginally talented guys get paid much less.

Suppan, though, confounds that expectation, so much so that it’s kind of hard to wrap your head around it. In 2010, Soupy will make $12.5 million, making him the highest paid Brewer this season. However, he has been below replacement value for the past two seasons, making him arguably the worst Brewer for 2010 (if he breaks camp with the team).

Craziness.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 1:17 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

At the very least, we're used to the disparity being in the team's favor

Braun, Fielder up until last year, Gallardo.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 4:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

The thing that REALLY gets me about his contract

is the fact that he was a declining pitcher when Doug Melvin signed him to it.

A couple of stats got better from 2005 to 2006, but almost across the board he was worse in that year, and he had been establishing a trend of four straight years of increasing WHIP, and even in his NLCS MVP year, his BB/9 rose from the previous season while his K/9 fell. That’s an extremely poor combination when you’re talking a K/9 around 5 with average velocity of 87 or 88 MPH.

Suppan was the #3 pitcher on that 2006 Cardinals team, but the Brewers gave him #1b-ish money. AND it was a 4 year contract to a 32 year old.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Same with Wolf

I am/was not thrilled about any of them, but less-so about Davis considering his was only a 1 year deal.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know it's early, but I'm guessing they pick up Davis's option.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Mar 16, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure about that.

I think it depends on how what happens with Narveson, what the FA market is like and how well Davis pitches.

by sjlee on Mar 17, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think

that the Brewers should buy Soup a horse and let him and Michael Redd ride off into the sunset.

Q: Did you ever scout Corey Hart? What seems to be holding him back from being a good hitter for AVG?

A: The slider away. And that facial hair.

-Keith Law ESPN chat 2/11/10

by molitorfan on Mar 15, 2010 6:15 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

My thoughts.

1.) I think Narveson if DFA’d, then it is almost certain he gets claimed — He is a LHP and decent enough — I don’t think there is much of a chance that if he gets put on waivers he somehow ultimately ends up on the Brewers.

2.) I entirely disagree with the idea with the idea that Capuano, Loe, Halama, Dillard, and Chris Smith represent any sort of reasonable depth at AAA, at least to start the season. None of these guys have started at the MLB level in the last couple of seasons, and they all have significant probability to be much worse than Suppan.

3.) I don’t think there is much of a “PR” move to be made by the Brewers keeping Suppan around. I am pretty sure that most fans want to see him gone.

4.) What is most disturbing to me, is not the fact that we are paying $14 mil to Suppan to pitch this year, but rather that we don’t have any clear-cut options to replace him. I can forgive DM for making a bad contract, but what compounds his mistake in signing Suppan is the appalling lack of depth in our rotation. Bill Hall’s contract sucked, but ultimately we had the parts in place to replace him — this is not the case with Suppan.

5.) I think Wolf & Davis are known quantities for the most part — I think Yo could be stellar or average-ish — but certainly good enough for the rotation. I think Bush is solid enough to be the 5th starter. I think Parra, certainly has the stuff to fill that 4th spot, but I am not convinced that he will put it all together or be entirely reliable. I think Suppan is a known quantity as well. I think he is horrible, but I feel more comfortable with him starting the year for the Brewers than Cappy, Halama, Loe, Dillard or Smith.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 7:07 AM CDT reply actions  

As TheJay pointed out

who would actually claim him? The fact that we’re discussing keeping Suppan in lieu of Narveson makes me think there aren’t many teams that are going to be willing to take their own chances with Narveson. I wholly support the idea of getting rid of Suppan just to not have the same dread of knowing every day he starts, but I don’t see DFA’ing Narveson as a sure thing to losing him.

by ecocd on Mar 15, 2010 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't have the time or inclination...

to go through every team and try to find a landing spot for Narveson, and I think your question is fair — however, cheap 28yr LHPs that are coming off of a season showing some ability are a sought after commodity — I don’t think it is much of a stretch to say that Narveson will not make it through waivers.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree.

Somebody will claim him. Maybe an injury will open up a spot for a guy who’s only allowed 1 hit this preseason, or maybe they’ll throw him in an available bullpen spot as a 6th starter… you know… like the Brewers should do…

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Mar 15, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

What if Narveson gets hammered in his next start and/or the one after that

Does that change the calculus for the Brewers or another team? Should it?

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

it might "protect" him a bit

Then we MIGHT be able to stash him in AAA.

However, I think it more likely that he gets signed-by-another-team-if-cut than Suppan. Not that we’d have a point of keeping Suppan in AAA other than “depth”

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 15, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Should it make a difference?

Yes. 5 IP is far to small of a sample size, but he pitched well last year in his oppurtunities, so I don’t really think it will change other teams’ opinions on him that much. I think Suppan is more attractive to other teams simply because teams value that ‘veteran innings-eater’ type player when filling an injury hole.

That being said, I think either one will be picked up by another team if cut by the Brewers.

Cards Announcers On Gamel's First Career HR, "That’s all they need is another home run hitter".

by tcyoung on Mar 15, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well sure, but if he throws 6 perfect innings

does THAT change it?

You really have to consider both options.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

You mean as in one of five?

Or as in a replacement level pitcher in case someone goes down? There’s no way Narveson is the 5th best SP in camp. But he is ahead of Suppan, without a doubt.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I haven't said Suppan is better

I just think it’s not a big deal if Narveson is lost on waivers. It’s not a given that Narveson is a decent SP. It would be nice to have him as a long reliever in the bullpen, but I don’t want to see them play roster gymnastics to keep him. If there’s a roster crunch and he gets put on waivers, oh well.

I think Suppan will be cut, so there should be a spot open.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

"I just think it's not a big deal if Narveson is lost on waivers. It's not a given that Narveson is a decent SP."

You might be right on both points. Given your track record, I might even say you’re probably right. Narveson certainly doesn’t appear likely to be the difference between having a playoff team and not.

The risk of losing Narveson might be less than I think it is (see above), but even if it’s about a 5% chance, it’s a risk I don’t think they should take. Not because Narveson is that good, but because Suppan is that bad. I’d like to keep both in the system, if only because Suppan has shown a willingness to take a bullet (i.e., you’re going 6 innings today no matter how many runs you give up) and eat innings when doing so is (temporarily) as important as getting a quality start, but if there’s even a 5% chance of losing Narveson, they should cut Suppan instead. You know Suppan is terrible and there’s nothing to be done about it. Narveson might turn out to be nearly as bad, but he’s cheap and under team control for a while yet. Taking even a slight risk of losing him to keep Suppan around for his last year just doesn’t make any damn sense under those circumstances.

But damn me if I don’t think that’s exactly what will happen.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 15, 2010 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you overestimate my track record

But yeah, Suppan should be cut regardless of the Narveson decision. If that means there’s a spot for Narvy, cool.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, not a regular starter.

More like an option if a starter goes down and there aren’t off days to cover it.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

You forgot one scenario

Soup for batboy. At least then he could see what pitching looks like!

by 5toolz on Mar 15, 2010 7:44 AM CDT reply actions  

not rec'd

rj: I agree with your argument, but it doesn’t seem to go with the subject. You talk about how much suppan sucks, and how we’d be better off performance-wise with him not on the team, but you barely touch on economic issues (as suggested by the subject). You, rightly, declare his contract a sunk cost. But you don’t address the money Bush is due if he makes the roster. Nor do you bring in an attendance-based argument backed with numbers (on our team, what was the difference over the past two seasons suppan vs gallardo? league wide, what’s the day-of-the-week-neutral difference in attendance of a #4 starter vs a below-or-at-replacement-level starter). Also, what’s the $ value of a win, disregarding playoffs? Including the possible appearance in the playoffs? Does dumping Suppan turn us from an 85 win club to a 90+ win club?

You bring up that if someone picks up Suppan at “minimum wage” that will pay for Narveson, but that ignores the very real possibility that no one, not even the Royals or the Nats, will pick up Suppan this season, even for 400K. Plus, doesn’t that get pro-rated if he’s not picked up by opening day?

I think that either Suppan + Narveson or Bush + Narveson will be on the opening day roster. The only way Bush is picked up is if Suppan is cut, as our payroll goes up by 3M if we bring on Bush. I hope that the brewers have in their budget the 3M for Bush, but declare suppan a sunk cost – that will make our team the most competetive it can be, and will likely (note, I don’t know the numbers) have a $3M better attendance and merchandise sales to offset the additional cost.

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 15, 2010 8:02 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Hmmmmm good point

That was why I clicked on the link, but I’ve still rec’d it for the content. I guess I’m a sucker for rec’ing any long comment that criticizes Suppan and tells me the Brewers can cut him. Even if it’s for Narveson.

I was hoping he would address the concerns you’re stating above, though. I was wondering how roguejim was going to make Bush’s additional salary disappear.

I also don’t think someone is going to pick up Suppan to start their season right now. Could teams offer him a minor league contract? I don’t know how the veteran status goes, but Suppan seems to be one of those “yeah he’s old, but let’s take a AAA flier on him and see” guys. It’s peculiar to think the Brewers could DFA Suppan and he’d have to stop to think about a decision between being a free agent and possibly not pitching anywhere or trying to impress enough in Nashville to get his call back up to the Brewers (or retiring outright).

by ecocd on Mar 15, 2010 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think Suppan could get signed

Especially a team that suffered some injuries and needed someone to get them through some DL stints. However, I don’t think that is going to bring the Brewers any sort of reasonable cost savings.

Cutting Bush is the place to save money, however, he could also provide value by pitching semi-decent.

I rec’d the article, because RogueJim is top-shelf material.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is absolutely no way Suppan goes to Nashville.

Under any scenario other than a rehab start. Ever. He might take a minor league contract with someone else, say, next year, but he’s not going to suffer the humiliation of getting paid $12.5 million by the Brewers to pitch in AAA.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 15, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess I agree

but I don’t think

he’s not going to suffer the humiliation of getting paid $12.5 million by the Brewers to pitch in AAA.

is why he won’t pitch in AAA. I think its more of a sense of entitlement (see his comments re: not doing anything different; unaware of a ‘competition’) than it is about humiliation. I think he’d just say “the Royals will pick me up, so I refuse, you can cut me”.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess

We’re talking about the same idea, just using different words — “entitlement” and “humiliation.” What I mean is generally that Suppan thinks AAA (or having to compete for a spot on the team, for that matter) is beneath him.

So yeah, entitlement is probably the better word.

by Cheeseandcorn on Mar 15, 2010 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's Suppan's incentive for pitching in Triple-A?

If it get to that point, he’s better off sitting at home or in his restaurant and collecting his paycheck from the Brewers.

by sjlee on Mar 15, 2010 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Suppan has enough MLB service time to basically reject any assignment to the minors. When that happens, the Brewers either have to keep him on the 25-man roster or release him. If they release him, they still are responsible for paying him his contract. If he signs with another team, the Brewers are responsible for the difference between his contract and whatever his new team will pay him (usually the league minimum).

by sjlee on Mar 16, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

and the league min. is pro-rated

depending on when he signs in the season…

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 16, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because he still wants to play

There are plenty of guys that would rather play in minor league ball for a month than staying in shape and collecting a paycheck until someone else calls.

I never meant to imply that Suppan would move to AAA, but that his best chance to pitch in the majors again could, in truth, be to stay with the Brewers organization.

by ecocd on Mar 16, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would agree if you were talking about young or inexperienced players.

I don’t think there are any 15-year veterans who would be willing to play at the minor league level hoping to make it back to bigs. If they don’t have a contract, those guys retire. If they do, they wallow around the league until their contract runs out.

by sjlee on Mar 16, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry, didn't mean to boil it down to semantics

I think we’re agreeing on all points

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ha Dayty

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice.

My only problems with that story…

I don’t think Suppan will be shaken up or calling for work… Yost will already have him on the phone as soon as his release was reported.

by sjlee on Mar 16, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

"i'm in a real bad place, i just need another fix"

"I'll be glad to have Ryan help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy."
-Sheriff Melvin

by sowingwildoats on Mar 16, 2010 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's fair

Of course, it took me all morning and half the afternoon to write what I did. It would be funny to write an entire book about why Suppan should not be on the Brewers in 2010.

Basically, the post was just me taking issue with conventional wisdom that Suppan’s salary guarantees him a spot on the team, and that the easy way out (keeping Soupy on the team) could be leaving some money on the table.

As for a market for Suppan, I’m basing a lot of it on the Rotoworld quote - I’m presuming that they would know more about such things than I would.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Value of wins

The value of an individual win isn’t worth much unless it’s a win that gets the team in the playoffs. Making the playoffs is a very big revenue bump so it is worth a lot. So basically, if Bush gets cut, that should tell you that either management thinks the team isn’t close enough to the playoffs that Bush would get them there vs Suppan or that they don’t think much of Bush.

Personally, I think it would be crazy to cut Bush based just on the fact that you really can’t count on Manny Parra or Jeff Suppan at this point. You don’t want to get in the same situation last year – where you really are relying on replacement-level starters to make starts. You hope Manny Parra is going to be better this year but the guy had a historically bad year last year. I don’t think anyone really has any hope for Suppan other than innings eating filler.

There’s a decent chance someone would give Suppan a chance for the league minimum but even if he doesn’t, 400K isn’t really enough to worry about either way.

by kingcharlesxii on Mar 15, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Value of a win
The value of an individual win isn’t worth much unless it’s a win that gets the team in the playoffs.

Fans will come out in droves to watch a team that is “in the hunt”. In fact the difference in revenue between a 95 win team and a 100 win team is insignificant. But between an 85 win team and a 90 win team there is a significant revenue jump. And if a team is out of contention in June (see: Nats, Pirates) then there are lost revenues all through the year. Getting off to a good start and staying in contention is key, and every win (until a spot is clinched) in every part of the year has value.

Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.

by Yar Nivek on Mar 15, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

True but...

It would have to be a pretty big swing to affect attendance. The Brewers aren’t going to lose 10 extra games by June if they keep Jeff Suppan. Most likely they would lose 1 or 2 more games. I doubt that is big enough to have an affect on attendance – the worst case is one of the Central teams going on a tear and leaving everyone behind. So yes, there is value in contending but it’s almost certain that one player won’t make or break the team. Even CC Sabathia’s great run only made the difference of a few wins and I think that’s about the upper bound of how much one player can affect a team. I don’t think anyone believes that Dave Bush is going to put up 2008 Sabathia numbers. :)

TLDR: Jeff Suppan won’t sink the team by June by himself but it easily could make the difference in ending up in the playoffs or not.

by kingcharlesxii on Mar 15, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd be interested to know why you're thinking Manny Parra won't be on the team

I think you’re severely misunderstanding the options situation if you think Parra will make it through waivers and/or Narveson is going to ‘beat him out’.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did someone actually post that?

I don’t see that in the post you’re responding to.

by sjlee on Mar 15, 2010 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, might have been a reading comprehension error on my part

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

One other thing

Whenever I see the argument “Player X is below replacement value”. There is often a unverified assertion that the team has a replacement value player or better ready to go.

There are varying degrees of “below replacement value” and I am not sure guys like Cappy and Halama who haven’t started for a couple seasons are legitimate guarantees to pitch better than Suppan.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 8:47 AM CDT reply actions  

in all fairness

your grandmother can pitch better than Suppan in whatever her current state is. So, I think Cappy can too.

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 15, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Manny Parra

did not pitch better than Suppan did last year — in fact he pitched significantly worse.

Suppan is bad — but we had worse pitching last year.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

He got inferior results

Did he pitch better or worse, that’s a different question. I’d make the argument that Parra pitched better.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Mar 15, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

No matter how thin you slice it, Parra pitched poorly in 2009.

His pitching had a lot to do with his inferior results.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure...

I am not about to defend Suppan… and I am not very interested in debating the “shades of suck” — however I just don’t think that a person can make the claim that “It can’t get worse than Suppan”.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

True

I don’t disagree that there are a lot of pitchers who would put up worse numbers than Suppan – probably including guys like Loe/Halama – but Parra was more than a shade of suck better last season. Parra’s 2009 FIP: 4.88, Suppan’s 2009 FIP: 5.70.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 15, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

tERA confirms

5.64 for Suppan
4.4 for Parra

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Mar 15, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

You will have to do more than throw up some FIP numbers to convince me otherwise.

I remember at the end of 2008 Parra had a BABIP of ~.315 and all of the fantasy publications were looking at his high #, and predicting a “bounceback season” for Parra in 2009. Of course, in 2009, Parra had a BABIP of ~.365 which is off the charts. Parra has always had a very high BABIP and also has consistently underperformed his FIP. Parra seems to be a unique outlier. If you compare Parra and Suppan’s DIPS ERA,

Suppan 5.98
Parra 7.23

Which is evidence to Parra pitching at least as bad as Suppan — also, if you look at Suppan’s pitching runs allowed (def. ind.) he is at a blistering -26, and Parra is at a -49 in less innings. Given the fact that Suppan and Parra play in front of the same players, and Parra’s DIPS ERA is higher than his Normalized Runs, I don’t see where you can conclude defense and luck were that bad for Parra.

Certainly I can concede Parra may have been somewhat unlucky — but not to the point where he has an ERA ~1 run higher than Suppan, playing in the same parks and with the same defense, sort of defies a lot of logic. Furthermore, Parra has been unlucky over the space of his entire MLB career — which is 330 IP — and that is getting to be a big enough sample of innings to really wonder if FIP is inadequate to wholly measure Parra.

I remember at the end of last season — Fangraphs did a piece about how weird Parra’s stats are — and they concluded that the only two players that had easier to hit fastballs than Parra were Matt Morris and Charlie Brown from Peanuts.

Parra walked batteres, then got crushed last year and hit hard, we saw it first-hand.

As a side note, I am moving more and more away from stats like FIP, as I really don’t believe that pitchers “control” HRs, at least to the degree that people are claiming that they do. I don’t think the pitcher controls a 320ft FB to center which is an out, versus a 320 FB down the line which is a HR — especially given some of the sandboxes teams play in now. I do agree that the fielding noise is reduced in HRs, so there is some value in stats like FIP, however it is showing itself to be incomplete.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 16, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think

you can use FIP to say one player pitched better than another. It ignores to much stuff. I think Parra was a little unlucky since he had a FB% that went up 6% from the previous year while his LD% went down 3%. With something like that you would expect his HR to go up and his BABIP to go down. His HR total went up but so did his BABIP. FIP seems like a stat that is good for predicting future ceiling but not really useful for looking at previous performance. We know a pitcher will get hit harder if they get the ball up and that wouldn’t show up in FIP.

Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.

by cooper82 on Mar 16, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

I will find the article....

Here it is….

The Curious Case of Manny Parra.

It seems like MLB hitters have been able to hit Parra harder than other MLB pitchers. Parra seems to catch too much of the plate, and does not cause hitters to swing and miss as much as he should.

In short, he hasn’t been a good pitcher.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 16, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

When was this?

It would certainly explain at least some of the performance difficulties.

by ecocd on Mar 16, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Funny enough

I didn’t read it anywhere, but rather was told this when talking to a former Brewers pitcher last year.

He said that when he was watching Parra pitching, he noticed that Parra was tipping his pitches. He also said that the Brewers coaching staff was also aware of this and that it was one of the things Parra was working on that when he was sent down to the minors.

by sjlee on Mar 16, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

No one cared about that article when I fanshotted it when it came out

But Parra likes ‘fat pitches’, that’s for sure.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's all in presentation

and celery sticks

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 16, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's probably it

You’re really worked up about this Parra/Suppan stuff, too. I think my fanshot was something like “this is a really interesting article on Manny Parra. Hopefully he doesn’t suck this year”.

I needed a bow or something?

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh I know

I run a restaurant…its disgusting.

My favorite is people that call it “ranch sauce”. That’s different than the dressing…how?

The celery is merely the vessel that transports the ranchness to your mouth.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

fanshotted

the internet creates interesting verbs.

"I'll be glad to have Ryan help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy."
-Sheriff Melvin

by sowingwildoats on Mar 16, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

fanshat?

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

reminds me too much of something else

"I'll be glad to have Ryan help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy."
-Sheriff Melvin

by sowingwildoats on Mar 16, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

no, that's fan's hat

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 16, 2010 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Where did you get those numbers?

The DIPS stats I’m finding seem to agree with FIP that Parra was significantly better:
Manny Parra: 4.68 DIPS (2009)
Jeff Suppan: 5.52 DIPS (2009)

I think FIP is a pretty good (if not too complex) way of evaluating pitching performance, but even if you disregard FIP, basically every single advanced metric I’ve seen puts Parra far ahead of Suppan.

The difference between a stat like FIP and actual ERA takes into account fielding, but it also tries to neutralize plain bad luck. So, while Suppan and Parra have the same defense behind them, that doesn’t mean that Parra couldn’t have been extraordinarily unlucky last season. It doesn’t take a huge amount of bad luck to skew an ERA: a few bad breaks followed by a homerun suddenly turns a normal outing into a meltdown and gives you a 108.00 ERA for the day.

And Parra has maintained a high BABIP for his career – I agree some pitchers probably just do to a certain extent – but that shouldn’t effect his FIP. Besides, even if one concedes that Parra is just a guy doomed to underperform his FIP, there’s a difference between a +0.23 differential (2008) and a +1.48 differential (2009).

Parra was not good last season – a 4.88 FIP is bad – but Suppan was in an entirely different universe of suckitude.

And I agree with the Fangraphs analysis that Parra has problems at times leaving his fastball over the plate, but that’s what’s keeping him from being an elite pitcher, not making him a worse-than-Suppan pitcher. All of Parra’s other pitchers are well above average, and his fastball “stuff” is pretty good too, if he can just stop leaving it over the plate.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 16, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, defense isn't constant

It’s possible that Suppan got good defense and Parra got bad defense.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Mar 16, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

xFIP

Parra was at 5.26, Suppan was at… 5.26. That’s a stat that nuetralizes the rate of home runs per fly ball at about 12%, so that’s only taking into account walks, strikeouts, and fly balls. If the home run issue is the main problem you have with FIP, I’d say that stat should be a good indicator.

I mentioned tERA above, I also am a big believer in that stat. It assigns a run value to each event (line drive, fly ball, strikeout, walk, groundball etc) and comes up with a number of expected runs per nine innings. Parra strikes out a lot of batters and gets a lot of ground balls. He did get hit hard last year, and yes it is notable that his fastball is hittable (I’ve written about that extensively before: here, here, here, here, and here). But he does do two of the three best things a pitcher can do: strike people out and get groundballs. If he can lower the walks a little bit he’ll be just fine with the potential to be good. But last year, it seems he “pitched” very close to the way Suppan “pitched”. In my opinion anyway.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Mar 16, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Braunophile's grandmother pitches as well as Suppan

As I related in a previous anecdote. I think you’re safe in asserting that most grandmothers would pitch with similar effectiveness.

by Brew Angel on Mar 15, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Very true

I don’t think Narveson is a legitimate guarantee either.

It’ll be “fun” to see the arms thrown against the wall to see which one sticks. At least this year they’ll have moxie.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Suppan is really the only guy who's arm I want to see dashed against a wall

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good point

Our replacement starters last year were not good. I don’t know that much has changed going into this year to think we’ll get better production from the 6th-9th best starters.

Burns – 6.86 ERA in 8 starts
VIlly – 6.52 ERA in 6 starts
Narveson – 3.88 ERA in 4 starts
McClung a 12.27 ERA in 2 starts.

Get a ife broseph

by Supertramp on Mar 15, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree!

But that’s the thing. I refuse to believe that Suppan is the best the Brewers can do. The OPS-against number was the most depressing - when the opponents are OPSing .900 against you on average, how much worse can Halama be? Pitching with his feet?

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

thatd be 1.000 OPS

OBP would be 1.000 (due to walks). I assume that A\/G is 0 with 0 ABs

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 15, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

on another note

I no longer have to copy-and-paste Ms Vs Es 3s and whatever misc. letters my keyboard doesn’t like for the day. I installed a new keyboard on my 6 year old laptop. I still have the L key disabled, but I’ll try re-enabling that today (but that could be a CPU issue rather than a keyboard one).

horray…I no longer have to type \ and / for a V (as above). I feel like I’ve had Tommy John and have a brand new blogging arm.

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 15, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nice

And I’m impressed you were able to crib together a new laptop keyboard. When the world goes all Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, I want you on my team.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

no

at least for the L situation. The L was randomly firing. There is no way to “turn off” the internal keyboard, so it’d still be firing at random, even if I was using a different keyboard. And there’s no keyboard-profile based method of saying “I want the L to work on this keyboard, but disable the other L” in Windows/DOS/x86. You might be able to pull it off on a mac, but not a PC.

As to the other keys, I could have probably gotten around that with an external keyboard, but I’d still have to hit the apps key to get my L. may as well kill two birds with one stone, especially as I would have been carrying my external keyboard in my backpack all day (or had a sep ext. for work and one for home and damn it if I was anywhere else) which would damage the keyboard.

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 16, 2010 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Understood

I didn’t realize your L key was randomly firing… just thought some of your keys weren’t functioning periodically. How did you disable it?

Also, where did you get a replacement keyboard for a laptop?

by sjlee on Mar 16, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, where did my keyboard go?

Oh, wait, it’s right here.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 16, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, the L was a PITA

about half the time it was firing at a rate of about 10 per second. Anytime I hit the start button and the L happened to fire, it would automatically log me out (bet you didn’t know that shortcut existed:P)

To disable the key labelled L on the keyboard, but make my apps key fire an L (rather than the right-click menu), I inserted the following key in my registry
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout]
“Scancode Map”=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,03,00,00,00,00,00,26,00,26,00,5d,e0,\
  00,00,00,00

Based on this (or a similar) MSDN: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/w2kscan-map.mspx

laptop keyboard replacement: I googled my model of laptop and added “keyboard” and looked at the shopping pages that came up. I think I got this one for $20. The tricky thing is figuring out how to get the replacement to connect, as it’s a plastic-sheet type ribbon cable. Really flimsy. My replacement keyboard’s cable was too short (I probably got a not-quite-compatible-keyboard not made by Toshiba), so I couldn’t put back in all the innards of my computer properly. I guess some of it wasn’t needed. Okay…so I pulled out one metal plate…not a big deal.

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 16, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've read and reread this

and I’m still not sure what you mean. Do I have a typo somewhere?

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Halama pitching with his feet?

Walking everyone?

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Mar 15, 2010 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ohhhhhhh

thanks!

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep:P

so .100 worse:P Plus the no outs recorded thing…

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 16, 2010 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Replacement level is arbitrarily set at 80% of average.

I think it holds up well with position players but considering pitchers can be infinitely bad, I think it doesn’t work as well with pitchers. Just stating somebody was below replacement level and they added negative value is incorrect. It is a relative value and like you stated, it doesn’t mean we have somebody better. I don’t like having Suppan on the team, but don’t necessarily have better options.

Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.

by cooper82 on Mar 15, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Roguejim:

You compare Suppan to Bill Hall — Which is an interesting comparison, however, the difference is that Hall had suitable replacements in house, which made DFAing him easy.

I really think the hangup to DFAing Suppan is not in the $$$, as it is in the sorry state of our starting pitching depth.

As much as we would like to say: Player X can’t be worse than Suppan, in reality, we had a bunch of guys worse than him last year, why should this year be different?

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 12:02 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't think we had anyone worse than Suppan

I think Soupy might have been the worst starter in all of baseball. I guess it depends on how we rank them.

But, no, it’s a lot easier DFAing Hall when you have a replacement at the ready. Also, I think Hall was a better shortstop than Soup was a pitcher.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

FTJ might counter with Parra here

but Parra had a lower FIP (and worse defense behind him).

by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 15, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

You underestimate me.

I would counter and say every starter besides Yo and Narv were as sucky as Suppan was last year.

We had 9 starters last year? (Yo, Narv, Suppan, Parra, Burns, McClung Villy, Looper, Bush).

We can split hairs as to who stunk the loudest… but I think the reality is, is that if someone like McClung or Burns had to make the 30 starts that Suppan had, our 2009 record could have been worse.

The bottom line is, is that I don’t see a reason to be mad at DM for inking Suppan to a bad contract — the reason to be upset at DM, is the sad state of our rotational depth, so that we have to pitch Suppan every 5th day.

Taking shallowness to new depths -- FtJ's blog

by Fatter than Joey on Mar 15, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're wrong

Braden Looper had as many wins as Tim Lincecum, who won the Cy Young, so he pitched really well.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 15, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

you make up $14.5 million

by putting a damn good team on the field and remain competitive throughout the season

who would go out of their way to buy a game ticket to see Suppan pitch? The guy’s toxic…

"At times I'm emotional," --Ryan Braun, 7/7/09

by heybatterbatter on Mar 15, 2010 6:23 PM CDT reply actions  

You said it!

NO WAY would I spend even $52 for an average seat and $7.50 per beer to see a game Suppan is starting….never in this lifetime. Oh, my nine-pack happens to include one of his starts? Hello eBay, goodbye ticket to crap live MLB experience….opening bid $1.00….this guy doesn’t belong in the major leagues. Thanks to roguejim for the excellent analysis.

by PlusorMinusThree on Mar 15, 2010 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe you can actually exchange that ticket for another date in the season

if you didn’t want to go the ebay route

Get out of my dreams and into my Chuckie Carr
-Molitorfan 12/23/09

by Michael M on Mar 15, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I actually paid for tickets to see Suppan pitch in 2008.

It was that or skip baseball altogether. I was only in Milwaukee for a couple days, and it was my (and the Braunophile’s) first visit to Miller Park. The starting pitcher was irrelevant. Given that Suppan started, as you would expect the Brewers didn’t win. Damn Aubrey Huff.

by Brew Angel on Mar 16, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Like you

I went to games last year regardless who was pitching as well as who the opponent was.

With a young child (now it’s two), it’s tough to find time to go to games. I take what I can get. Sadly, most of games I went to the Brewers got roughed up.

by sjlee on Mar 16, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

For the record

This is now BCB’s most rec’d FanPost.

Failure is just success rounded down.

by TheJay on Mar 15, 2010 7:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Holy moley

22+ more recs than “Yost Fired!”?!

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Mar 15, 2010 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

That gets me hankerin' for a new poll...

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought about a funny option

but I really wanted to see what people thought.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 15, 2010 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

imagine how quickly firedougmelvin.com would be shut down.

"I'll be glad to have Ryan help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy."
-Sheriff Melvin

by sowingwildoats on Mar 16, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Made a promise

Off course, I should blog more. But jerks like roguejim post here and invalidate an entire post I was working on. :)

by SgtClueLs on Mar 17, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Way too many posts to read through, so if it's been said, I'm sorry...

Suppan might fit at a fly ball friendly park (i.e. not Miller Park!) for a pitcher. I mentioned this a while back and got the similar what not from the gallery. I’m not going to look up the article, but I know there are 7 or 8 parks where he might actually earn a 5th spot. If he stays healthy (180+ innings) and pitches mostly at home, there might be a team or two that offers up $2 million. Or, perhaps just two prospects. Either way, Milwaukee is winning this game!

by Braski on Mar 16, 2010 9:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Rec!

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Mar 22, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Make it Happen

I really hope the Brew Crew dumps Suppan. He’s no better than a AA quality pitcher and the way he gives up so many HR’s he looks like a BP Pitcher out there. The wost of it is, he doesn’t seem interested in doing anything different to try to improve. A good house cleaning is in order. Don’t stop with Suppan. Get rid of Hall and my personal favorite Mr. K, Cory Hart. I think maybe even Suppan could K Cory, but I’m not sure. If we have to suffer thru a long season anyway, let’s at least develop some prospects.

by Milw-Outlaw on Mar 19, 2010 9:49 AM CDT reply actions  

Not until we finally get rid of Geoff Jenkins.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Mar 19, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

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