A history of injuries and DL stints
by Nicole Haase on Mar 31, 2010 12:00 PM CDT
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PrintAdam McCalvy reported yesterday that Jeff Suppan was to pitch in a simulated game due to a stiff neck. Tom Haudricourt's report on it said Suppan has been battling neck soreness since Spring Training began and an MRI finally revealed a cervical disc problem that's leading to periodic sciatic pain. It's said that the pain has been going on for two months, but the source was just recently discovered.
Does this sound familiar, folks? That may be because suddenly discovered, previously unreported injuries have cropped up conveniently at least once a year over the past few years for the Brewers. In fact, this sort of sudden roster move may be a patented Doug Melvin special. Under pressure and with few options, Melvin buys himself more time by sending an unpopular and unproductive player to the DL with the possibility of a minor league rehab stint, thus buying himself more time and ensuring that no decisions or moves have to be made in the immediate future.
At the end of July last season, Suppan was sent to the DL with a strained left oblique suffered while batting. This made room on the roster to bring up Alcides Escobar and was the beginning of the process that sent J.J. Hardy to the minors just 13 days later and eventually led to Hardy's trade to Minnesota.
In early July 2008, when Suppan was struggling and the Brewers had just signed CC Sabathia, Suppan developed "joint irritation" and was place on the 15 day DL.
At the time, Suppan was 5-6 with a 4.71 ERA in 18 starts. In the start the before he was moved to the DL, he lasted just three innings, giving up six runs and five hits to the Pirates.
In late May 2008, shortly after the disastrous series in Boston and the rumors of the imminent firing of Ned Yost, Eric Gagne was put on the 15 day DL with rotator cuff tendonitis. He wasn't removed from the DL for over a month during which time Salomon Torres was a perfect 12-12 as closer. At the time he was placed on the DL, Gagne was 1-2 with a 6.98 ERA. He had blown five of 15 save opportunities and had already been removed from the closers roll once.
At the end of May 2007, Elmer Dessens was 1-1 with a 6.60 ERA and a 1.80 WHIP and the Brewers were getting no offensive output at third base. According to this article, they were "28th among the 30 major-league clubs at that position in slugging percentage (.273), 27th in batting average (.214), tied for 26th in home runs (one) and runs scored (16) and 25th in runs batted in (14)."
They also happened to have Ryan Braun playing third base and excelling at the plate in AAA.
So Dessens was placed on the 15 day DL with a right shoulder strain to make room on the roster for Braun and stayed there for 65 games until he was designated for assignment at the beginning of August and released about a week later.
Though this appears to be accepted practice in baseball, it's difficult to look at the collected moves and not feel as though they're at the least lacking in decency or honor and at worst verging on unethical.
And no matter how you feel about the principles of the situation, this apparent history of avoidance and refusal to deal with difficult situations is unsettling.
In this most current situation, it's hard to imagine that the Suppan problem will be any clearer in two weeks, making this DL move feel like simply a postponement of the inevitable. And while I can appreciate that Melvin is being careful in case of injury, the negative publicity that has come from yesterday's move is far worse than any sort of fan or media reaction to the Brewers needing to scramble to fill a starter's role on short notice.
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I remember when the Yankees put Wang on the DL when he had a 30 something ERA
Same situation. Doctors have to sign off on it, so if anything they’re the ones who should be held accountable. Maybe a second opinion needs to be mandated.
"Cubs fans boo again – 99% of these people can’t see the plate." -Ueck
That wouldn't work though.
All professional athletes always have something wrong with them that they can pass off as an injury, then you’d just get into a doctor fight to determine whether or not it’s serious enough to warrant DL-age.
And trust me, doctor fights are the most irritating kind of fights.
Shruggity
There's something more annoying than doctor fights:
Doctor fights that involve lawyers. If there are going to be second opinions and closer scrutiny of “injuries,” the lawyers are going to get involved sooner rather than later. And then: ain’t NOBODY happy.
There's enough of a story
that McCalvy wrote about it and had Suppan denying “phantom injury”
by Nicole Haase on Mar 31, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
I just don’t think the team is getting or will get much flak for this. Maybe it’s worse than scrambling for a spot starter, but losing a nickel is worse than losing a penny, too.
Failure is just success rounded down.
Exactly
I don’t think there’s any negative PR whatsoever. Every single one of tristarscoop’s chronicled moves actually helped the team. Suppan NOT pitching is addition by subtraction. I don’t care why he’s not pitching, just that he isn’t.
I am not, however, buying the ‘preserving depth’ line. Sure they’re being passive aggressive about it, but its looking like Suppan will be DFA’d at some point.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Right
Assuming none of the pitchers gets hurt (or completely falls apart) in the first month or two of the season, the Brewers will likely DFA Suppan.
Why not?
It doesn’t hurt the team to put him on DL… and they still have him just in case they actually need to use him.
I'm through with this nonsense. You win.
I think we’ve discussed this topic to death over the past couple days… and you know the answers to your questions, but somehow delight in asking them over and over.
I'm saying, they've got plenty of pitchers at AAA, plenty of FA pitchers unsigned
We’re keeping him around because we’d rather pay a guy 12.5 Mill to suck than a guy .5M to suck? Really? An additional .5M in costs is not a good reason to keep him around “in case we need him”.
Shruggity
See also
Vargas, Claudio
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
They made a mistake which they have subsequently learned from?
Why does this irritate you so much? I can’t see any reason for it.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not irritated, I just don't see the reason to not admit that they're abusing the DL
Just say what they’re doing, if everyone does it, no ones going to care. I know he’s less hurt than Braun and Zaun, and probably half the team, just come out and say it. Suppan to the DL with chronic ineffectiveness. Don’t hide things when everyone knows what you’re trying to do, just come out and say it.
It’s not like I’m irritated that Suppan’s not going to be pitching for the team.
Shruggity
I guess I don't know why you care
Do you get mad when Doug Melvin doesn’t candidly tell every media outlet what exactly he’s going to be doing in the offseason like other GMs do?
Plus, a doctor and the player himself have signed off on THIS injury…so…
The Suppan DL after the CC trade and the Dessens DL were obviously invented injuries. This…eh…maybe.
I just honestly don’t care whether its real or not, and I don’t really care whether the team gives me a ‘straight answer’ or not. I understand its a business and there are need-to-know information items in every company.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree with the "Player himself" signing off on this one
what’s he going to say, “yeah, i’m not hurt, just helping the roster situation”? He knows what’s going on, he’s been given an extended chance to win a spot on the team, and given his performance so far, he needs it.
Whatever.
I don’t care that Doug doesn’t tell everyone what he’s doing all the time, I’m just not a big fan of blatant rule misuse, which I characterize this as. Others may not, that’s fine. Just my opinion.
Shruggity
File a greivance?
It would be well within his rights.
Besides, how do you know? I get the convenience of the timing, but aside from that, you’re just really assuming this is a fake soreness of the neck?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure his neck is sore.
I’m also sure he can play baseball with that soreness. Given that he has all spring.
Shruggity
I'm sure Ben Sheets could have played through many of his injuries, too
Some guys’ fallopian tubes are bigger than others.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
?
Why can Suppan pitch perfectly fine (for Suppan) with the same injury all spring, then as soon as spring ends, can’t go? Just seems shady to me, is all I’m saying.
Shruggity
Yeah its like Ben Sheets can have a normal outing
but maybe walk an extra batter, and then he’ll sit on the bench with a blister for 3 weeks.
The difference is, Suppan is always not good.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
FWIW
I would characterize dropping a player to the minors for exactly the amount of time needed so that his current year playing time does NOT count as a year of playing time a blatant misuse of the rules. Yet you have no problem with the Brewers doing it last year, save for a personal attachment to Hardy?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t think the DL is there to give you a free roster spot whenever someone is underperforming. Then they should call it something else.
Shruggity
You're as upset about Riske eating a roster spot too, then, huh?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
?
Riske’s hurt, and his injury isn’t being exacerbated (or completely fabricated) for the sake of having a 26 man roster instead of a 25 man roster.
Shruggity
I just don't think you can make that judgment
from where you’re sitting.
Team, player, doctors say its a DL injury. Honestly, I don’t care why he’s on the DL. He’s not pitching, and that’s a plus. Sure I’d like them to DFA him—we all would. But, they haven’t, and apparently he’s injured. So…everyone wins. Considering if they DFA him and he’s found to be injured after, the Brewers probably have to pay for his rehab. And they’re paying the salary any way.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
The stats before the injury are nice
But couldn’t they also show that the player was struggling because he wasn’t 100% and went on the DL to try and get better?
Are people really doubting Suppan’s oblique injury last year? If he really wasn’t hurt he did a pretty good job of selling it by claiming that he couldn’t swing the bat and bunting every time during a stretch of games.
I guess I’ll just accept that some people are distrubed by this but I’m having a hard time getting worked up or caring. If the Brewers had a history of grievances filed against them I could see it being an issue, but to my knowledge there haven’t been any since DM took over.
Get a ife broseph
The DL allows for this
All of these guys probably had real injuries, it’s just that if they hadn’t been playing awful they probably would have been allowed to continue to play (players fight through minor injuries all the time). If Ryan Braun has a minor shoulder problem but is crushing the ball as usual, it doesn’t make sense for the team to take him out of action. On the other hand, if Jeff Suppan has a minor neck problem and is pitching terrible and creating a roster crisis, it seems both entirely sensible and within the domain of the DL rule to stash him there. Other teams do it too, and so long as teams aren’t getting doctors to blatantly make up injuries – which I don’t think is the case most of the time – I really don’t see the problem.
Not to mention the fact that the DL rule has deliberately been made more and more lenient since the 1980s, probably in part to allow for guys with lesser injuries to be sent there.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
Yep, it's totally allowed by the rules.
I just think the rule needs fixing.
And there’s never a need to make up an injury, it’s just a matter of attaching a medical term to the general soreness that comes with being a professional athlete.
Shruggity
I think they can change the rules however they want, Suppan still goes to the DL.
A player pitches all spring and struggles, then complains of soreness. An MRI reveals that he has a disc that is slightly out of place. Player is put on DL.
The only way to prevent is to have people with knowledge about the current roster situation try to guess how his injury is actually affecting his play. I don’t know how that would work.
Get a ife broseph
Nah, he complained of soreness before spring training started.
They should have taken care of it then. Spring training is for getting ready for the regular season, not for pitching through injuries.
Shruggity
Right
So to fix this “problem” you want a rule that says if a player could have taken care of an injury sooner, but didn’t — they are ineligible for the DL.
Get a ife broseph
That's not what I meant.
Suppan can play. He’s been playing all spring. He did nothing in his last outing to indicate he was hurt. He took an MRI and then pitched 90 pitches the next day. He’s not hurt, no more so than Braun, Fielder, Weeks, anyone on the team.
I know the rule I want is impossible to write and even harder to enforce, I just get irritated with moves like this. Add a “Terrible players” list that you can dump players on and not let play, for all I care.
Another question: What, if any, are restrictions on Suppan’s baseball activities while on the DL per the rule? It’s my impression we’re basically just using the DL to get a free roster spot, and he’ll be participating in everything but games, but I’m not aware of the rules.
Shruggity
I don't think there are any rules limiting activities outside of games.
If he wants to play frisbee with the guys during BP, he’s free to do so.
lets put a restriction
on his ability to breathe
by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 31, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
he change race?
or is it a lighting issue?
by PagsBrewCrew on Mar 31, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I just think it's funny
Braun & Zaun are hurt and sitting out spring training games, but have said they’d play if it was regular season.
Suppan is hurt and playing in and not missing anything in spring training, but is too hurt to play in the regular season.
Shruggity
If this truly is a 'phantom injury'
Maybe it came at his request, and perhaps with the influence of teammates. He’ll still remain with the club in the dugout during games and provide some of that ‘veteran leadership.’ He seems like a likable enough guy, in regards to his character, not his pitching of course, but it could very well be that instead of paying him boatloads of cash to sit at home on his couch, the team can pay him the same to stick around, be around the guys, and provide whatever small amounts of advice he has left.
How far will this one fly?
12.5 million
Is an expensive “do the opposite of everything I do” lesson.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy."
-Sheriff Melvin
by sowingwildoats on Mar 31, 2010 1:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, but...
its also a lot to pay a 5.00+ FIP guy to lose games for you.
Given a choice, I want to start eating that salary ASAP. If this is step one, awesome.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Um... We're disturbed by this?
Are we really arguing that the team shouldn’t have a discretionary option to remove an unproductive player from the roster without demoting or outright releasing them? I can’t fathom how that could be construed as “unethical.” The guy’s getting (in this case) $12M no matter what the Brewers do with him, this is just the best situation for the Brewers to swallow paying it, because they can keep him around and see if they can get him to pitch semi-effectively.
Mike Bischoff
Milwaukee, WI
They should release him.
Or there should be an “unproductive player list”
Do you want the Yankees signing all the FA’s in the world and then cycling them on and off the “disabled list” based on which ones performing at any given point?
Shruggity
That's an unreasonable way of spinning it
No free agent would be willing to go for that. Suppose the Yankees sign Prince in 2011, and tell him, “We’re going to keep you on the DL until Teixeira starts having trouble” or something like that. Do you really think he’d go for that? One of the key things here is that Suppan is agreeing to it. If a player wants to claim he’s injured and the team wants to claim he’s injured, there really isn’t much you can do to prevent this sort of thing.
Besides, even the Yankees don’t have the money to sign every free agent.
Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?
It's an extreme
But hell, if underperforming your contract is allowed to be an injury, anything is possible.
Shruggity
My point was:
“Are we really arguing that the team shouldn’t have a discretionary option to remove an unproductive player from the roster without demoting or outright releasing them? "
No, those are the 2 options. Neither of which are unreasonable methods of removing an unproductive player. The discretionary option you can add to that list is never playing the guy.
Shruggity
FWIW
I really think of it like this:
The team noted he had neck pain. Suppan noted he had neck pain. He’s pitched poorly, but not really talked about the pain, had a couple of treatments early in the spring, and then nothing. Decision comes up and Gord asks Jeff if his neck still hurts. Jeff tells him it does. Gord says they should have an MRI and 90 pitch session. Suppan agrees. After results are in, Gord tells Jeff there’s a disc problem, and that he could go on the DL until its healed and stay back in Arizona to work out the kinks.
As Suppan said in the McCalvy article, getting everyone worked out before playing a regular season game is important.
I don’t know if anyone was giving a pitch one way or another, but I guarantee you if it was put to him like that, he’d jump at the chance.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
If they can get away with it, why not.
It was pretty obvious the Dessens situation was roster shenanigans, and I’m sure there are other cases, but it is worth noting that you would expect worse numbers before a DL stint because pitching injured is a big cause of a variation in expected production.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
Fun DL fact
Players on the disabled list get to vote for all-star reserves and pitchers. It would be neat to vote for all-stars without ever playing in a MLB game (yes, being hurt for 4+ months would be much worse…).
Also, I wonder if any team has argued putting a player on the DL rather than releasing him was beneficial to the player because he kept accruing major league service and boosting his pension. If so, I wonder if that argument was made with a straight face.
Failure is just success rounded down.
I like this
even if he really is hurt, or not. I think the reason DM and KM have held Braun and Zuan out is that they will be a bigger part of the team then Suppan. Does anyone really care if Suppan really sees any game time this year? I mean I dont want to see him on the mound, not even in a blow out, he still could lose us the game. I would rather see Narrvason or Parra in that role. I really dont care what the reason Suppan is on the DL for a real injury or a fake one. I am just happy he wont pitch for over a 1/6 of the season.
For those who are upset or find this unsettling...
Do you feel the same way about the practice of waiting until late May/June to bring up a guy only because it will push back his first year of arbitration?
Get a ife broseph
How about sending Hardy down to gain a year of eligibility?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
They didn't really need elaboration, so I left it out. I can be wordier, if you so desire.
Shruggity
That second sentence could have gone in the body...
y’know?
Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.
It wouldn't.
But I’m suggesting opportunities for change.
Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.
KLSnow became Kyle Lobner.
QED.
Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.
So, let's be clear
You are ALL FOR:
Holding a player down who can compete at the major league level in order to benefit his major league club.
You are ALL AGAINST:
Putting a poorly performing player on the DL rather than cutting him, even if cutting him seems to be inevitable, even though doctors and the player himself acknowledge an injury.
Sending a major league player who has options that is performing poorly when the team is out of playoff contention to the minors in order to gain a year of control.
Just so I’m clear.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Not true.
You got the FOR right.
The against is close. The first one, I’m against, just cut the guy.
The second one, I’m not against in general, I just liked JJ Hardy.
Shruggity
See, you did need to expound
because I misunderstood your one word answer.
As far as I am aware its against MLB rules to cut a player who is injured. Well…I suppose you can, but he can file a grievance, and that can get nasty.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Mar 31, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
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| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Cincinnati
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25 | 19 | .568 | 0 | Won 6 |
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25 | 20 | .555 | 0.5 | Lost 1 |
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Houston
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20 | 24 | .454 | 5 | Lost 2 |
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18 | 26 | .409 | 7 | Won 1 |
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Chicago
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15 | 29 | .340 | 10 | Lost 9 |
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