Enter Villy- Candidate for Demotion
Carlos Villanueva has given up 4 earned runs in his last 4 appearances, leading to a 10.80 ERA in 3 and a third innings pitched. Normally, this would mean he would be the guy to get sent down when Davis comes off the DL. After all, he was one of the candidates to be sent down to make room for Suppan, since Villy has an option left. Time will tell, but based on performance, he would be a guy to consider. This is coming from a club that sent Stetter down with a zero ERA and Tony Gwynn Jr. down with a .300 batting average, so you never know.
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www.TWreck.us.com is available
Just a suggestion.
by ecocd on Jun 30, 2010 6:43 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
This guy can take a beating and keep getting up.
It’s sort of impressive, though I’m not sure why he thinks getting back up is a good idea.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jun 30, 2010 6:59 PM CDT reply actions
I vote that we boycott his next thread and not even tell him how we don't like to read his drivel
by PagsBrewCrew on Jun 30, 2010 7:02 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You assume he reads the comments
He probably doesn’t. Then has something like “Frequent poster on most awesome brewers blog ever” on his resume, or something.
Shruggity.
There is some reading going on.
As there are some recommended comments on the posts. Why add more insightful knowledge when you can just more or less ‘like’ a comment…
How far will this one fly?
I wish this TWreck was more like Amtrak Train Wrecks.
Only happen once every few years.
How far will this one fly?
You haven’t been on an Amtrak lately…
Unless I have lost count, I think that the Hiawatha (Milwaukee-Chicago Amtrak commuter) has hit (and killed) 4 people already this year. One of them caused a 5 hour delay while we waited for a new conductor and a med examiner to show up.
by Saberilliterate on Jul 1, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Is it kosher to flag this guy?
I was disappointed with the lack of hookers but the pancakes were delightful
mark it on the board
Please explain to me why having comments opposed to posts is so much better. Oh yes, I would love to be like some guys and have two posts and three thousand comments. Yeah I mean anyone can comment on anything, but to actually take time and post a topic does take some thought. All of you guys need to get a life. You talk about how I just ramble on, but in this post alone I have had fourteen comments and NOT ONE has had anything to do with the topic of discussion. I write stuff about the Brewers so it gets discussed. It is not about me. So you tell me I ramble about useless stuff, and yet you actually ramble on about useless stuff when I post something. Yeah that’s right I deserve to be flagged cause I don’t comment on all of my posts. Um have you heard of etiquette and common sense. Do you reply to your own posts on facebook too? “I really like this new movie!”
and then right below it, respond to your own post with, “yeah I can’t wait to see it!”
so for all you losers out there who count my posts and comments instead of listening to what I say, I have now made a comment and I am sick of your bashing. I am a die hard Brewer fan who has a lot of knowledge and I deserve some respect. Now knock it off. Thanks.
I'll take a crack at this (and people can correct me if I am wrong)
I’m not one of the people calling for your head. It’s not like you’re dominating the entire sidebar or anything—your posts are spaced far enough apart that it’s fine. A couple of posts (this one, for example) would, honestly, probably be better suited as a comment in the Frosty Mug or something.
Using your facebook example: If you post a status and a friend comments on it, or even asks you a question about it, is it not proper etiquette to respond back to that friend? I feel as though that is a more accurate analogy to this situation. You are writing something, which you say is designed to promote discussion. Presumably, that should mean that you want to discuss it.
This site is more of a community than a blog, honestly. In my experience at least, it’s rare to find a place where thoughtful, enlightening conversation/posts come in the comments in addition to the parent posts. Sometimes moreso in the comments than the posts. By only posting fanposts and not participating in the ensuing conversation, you’re using the site as a ready-made vehicle for yourself rather than creating your own blog where you wouldn’t have the same amount of readers as here (at least at first). In short, you’re not being a member of the community.
I’m glad that you are a die hard Brewer fan, and I am sure you know plenty about the team/baseball in general. As far as deserving respect, you have to earn that. Nobody on this site owes you anything. Start responding to comments and discussing the topic with us and, yeah, you’ll probably garner some respect. If you’re not interested enough in a topic to continue talking about it, why bring it up in the first place?
If someone responds to one of your posts saying “Hey, I agree with point A, but I take issues with point B for reasons 1, 2, and 3” what’s the harm in replying back “I see your point, but I don’t think 1, 2, and 3 are pertinent issues here because Jim Edmonds’ head is too large”? Everyone can learn more about the sport, and the back and forth banter is a great means to doing so.
Also, more comments gives you a greater chance to earn recs, which you can redeem for cute pictures of cats, rabbits, or babies. Your choice.
TW-S's on BCB since 5/9/10: 102
Acceptable: 2
by Noah Jarosh on Jul 1, 2010 2:24 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
By only posting fanposts and not participating in the ensuing conversation, you’re using the site as a ready-made vehicle for yourself rather than creating your own blog where you wouldn’t have the same amount of readers as here (at least at first). In short, you’re not being a member of the community.
But isn’t it understandable? I mean, evidently there’s a significant number of “losers” here who lack “common sense” and fail to give TWreck the “respect” he so amply “deserves” for his highly insightful fanposts (this one being the most shining example of them all, in my humble opinion). Clearly BCB should be happy to at least be deigned worthy of usage as a post dump, if we’re going to mistreat a valuable asset like that.
Kyle should really just turn over the keys to the blog to TWreck now, it’s the only appropriate solution.
by Zeyes on Jul 1, 2010 5:47 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
What he said.
I, too, would qualify myself as a diehard Brewers fan, and I probably know more about the team (and its farm system) than any of my friends knows about theirs. But that still means I know far less than most of the regular commenters here, let alone the folks who write posts.
If you feel you have extensive knowledge that demands to be heard and respected, then start your own blog – ain’t no thang. (If you write well and make good points, you might eventually even get semi-regular Frosty Mug links.)
But in my experience, Brew Crew Ball is not for people who feel that way, even if they do have that level of knowledge and passion. It’s for people who are willing to listen to others, have conversations, and learn from their fellow fans.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 1, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd just like to add
That I know virtually nothing about how to compile sabermetric data or even what it means without someone spelling it out for me. While I am a Brewer enthusiast that checks this site twice a day (minimum) 365 days a year, there is very little I can add to the conversation.
So I have enjoyed this community a great deal because when I ask elementary questions to further my understanding of the game, it isn’t met with scorn (like it would be on many websites). I’m simply given an explanation, and my enjoyment of the game is enhanced. Similarly, on those rare occasions I have been able to contribute something useful, the response has been warm—not ridiculing because I’m not a regular poster.
Steve
http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com
1. Your posts aren't that interesting or add much to the discussion.
2. When you comment it allows us(the BCB readers) to get to know you.
When you participate in the game threads and the mugs you become part of the community. When you post inane fanposts you seem like a spammer. Join in let us get to know you, maybe I’ll disagree with you but at least you’ll be a member of the community.
Re-reading that it sounds harsh.
Just participate in the mug and game threads we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
not harsh
but yes, if he participated in other threads, he would notice that we’ve already discussed some of his posts for a couple of days prior to his “keynote” post, which obviously doesn’t address or include any information already linked or research included.
Yup I don't research before I post
No research included? Where do you think I got the stats for how Villanueva has been doing over his last appearances? I believe I looked them up, wrote them down, and presented them. Yeah that’s what I thought.
WOW~!
you took 4/3.3333 and multiplied by 9. congrats. RESEARCH~!
the “research included” meant that OTHERS had done some research, perhaps even that tidbit, and you didn’t bother to summarize their thoughts, etc. You don’t NEED to do that, but if you’re going to make a keynote fanpost, you should have more than one small factoid (based on a flawed stat: ERA) to back you up.
Anytime you use TGJ as support, you know you are grasping at straws.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Angry BCB this week.
Between this thread and the Cliff Lee one, with all the backtocali bashing, BCB is a very cathartic place.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
*sigh.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 2, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think they mean research
into using numbers as analysis. You pulled out 3 1/3 innings and used it as an argument ignoring Villanueva’s 400+ other MLB innings pitched. I doubt many would argue that Villanueva would be a good candidate to send down when Davis comes back just not on 3 innings. Read some books on baseball statistics and read the blogs for a bit.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Yeah I mean anyone can comment on anything …
As you’re demonstrating.
… but to actually take time and post a topic does take some thought.
That’s what you think you’re doing? Most of your “topics” are completely indistinguishable from any of those “three thousand comments” that other people have; the only difference is that you’re seemingly a jerk who insists on abusing the Fanpost function to get a higher profile for his comments.
That said, given the stunning lack of introspection evident from your comment, I can see how you’re confused by the reactions you’ve been getting.
yeah...
my first problem is an unwillingness to participate in existing conversations.
Secondly is not posting where relevant. you want to post about how villy sucks, try a post-game thread where he blew the game, or the next day’s frosty mug, where it will no doubt be a major topic of conversation.
But one of my main problems is the lack of thought he puts into his posts. He mostly “thinks out loud” posting stream-of-consciousness type posts. I feel these are fine for comments in other threads (“I haven’t done the research, but…”) but not appropriate for the keynote post
also, someone pointed out that he doesn’t clutter the sidebar: there was one time that I recall that he had 3 posts up there. I’m sure no one else had 2 (and if there was someone, it was probably TheJay or null who put in effort)
Funny
Yeah I mean anyone can comment on anything, but to actually take time and post a topic does take some thought.
Wrong. Your topics aren’t much more thoughtful than some comments.
You talk about how I just ramble on, but in this post alone I have had fourteen comments and NOT ONE has had anything to do with the topic of discussion.
If you’re not willing to participate in discussing your FanPosts, then why should anyone bother posting comments?
NoahJ’s response to your Facebook analogy is spot on.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
this is exactly why
i dont post any fan posts. I’ve been “stalking” this site for probably over 2 years, just reading what everyone else puts on here and frankly dont have too much to say. nullact, thejay and others do terrific research and can usually say what I am thinking so that I dont have to.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
Ah, but those guys aren't creating FanPosts about...
Jaimie Navarro or former catchers that the Brewers should consider (even if they aren’t in baseball anymore). Someone has to do that… and TWreck has taken on that responsibility.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
It's why I don't either.
I used to do fanposts very occasionally, but now I don’t really do them at all. I’ve concluded I don’t have enough going on in my head to justify a fanpost and I’ve limited myself to just arguing in the comments for that reason. While I’ve also concluded I don’t have much to say, I’m not a good enough person to just shut up.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 1, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
As I'm not able to shut up
I blocked brewcrewball.com from my work computer via my HOSTS list.
so, I’m definitely not a good enough person to just shut up.
P.S. I take from any recs of this post that you all think I should just go away:P
make sure you comment more and read other sites too
maybe from time to time you’ll find a nugget that someone else has overlooked and can link a fanshot
Mobile Apps
This is one of the reasons that I prefer to read the blog on my droid… I don’t get the sidebar – only the main articles.
This comment is sponsored by DROID.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 1, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
DROID
Powered by a network whose initials are not AT&T
DROID
by Saberilliterate on Jul 1, 2010 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Shouldn't it be DROID (TM)?
Lucas still wants his royalties.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
One Man's Opinion
I don’t understand all the vitriol. As many have noted above, this is a community. Within a community there are all types of people. There are bound to be some people that you don’t necessary agree with or get along with. TWreck’s opinions and writing style may not be appealing to you, and yet you go out of your way to read what he has written. Then you continue to go out of your to belittle someone. I don’t really understand the point that commenting is somehow better than posting. In fact, I would argue that TWreck’s penchant for using FanPosts would make him easier to avoid for those who don’t want to hear what he has to say.
Long story short, if you don’t like, don’t read it. I, for one, welcome anyone willing to share an opinion and put themselves out there. Some of you seem to be going out of your way lately to drive people away from the site because they don’t fit your profile of what it means to be a member of this blog. If you want an exclusive club where only people you like are allowed in, I suggest you start your own website and restrict membership. As it stands this site is open to public and unless he doing something to raise the ire of those that run the site, he has done nothing wrong.
Get off your high horse and enjoy the fact that we have this great website that anyone who loves the Brewers can gather and share opinions.
by stempke on Jul 2, 2010 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 8 recs
Good point, however...
if you’ve ever read any of TWreck’s FanPosts, you will notice that most of them aren’t really all that interesting or thought-provoking. While that in itself isn’t that big of a deal, the fact that he doesn’t participate in any discussions in his FanPosts makes it seem like he’s some kid who yells out the first thing that comes to his mind then runs out of the room leaving everyone else scratching their heads.
This site is a community. The reason it is so successful is because of it’s members and the level of activity. If you post something, you can be assured that someone will read it… and likely comment on it. If members find something objectionable, then why can’t they say something about it (like you’ve done)?
There’s nothing wrong with him creating FanPosts, but I would think that if he thinks it’s interesting enough to share, then he should also discuss and participate.
BTW – NoahJ is a mod on this site, so according to your own post… I guess TWreck is doing something wrong.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
My point was simple
People don’t like what he writes, they know they don’t like what he writes. Yet they read them anyway. Then they go out of their way to tell him they don’t like it. It would be one thing to comment on the content of the article, which some of you have done. My post was not directed at those people. It was intended for those who seem to have made some sort of crusade against the author of this post. At your suggestion, I have gone back and read a lot of TWreck’s posts. Yes his writing style is hard to read and his thoughts are often unfinished, welcome to communicating in the 21st century. At the same time, he is obviously passionate about the Brewers and seems to have been a fan for a long time. It seems to me that someone like that should be welcome here and constructive criticism should be offered to help him improve his writing style and complete his thoughts. Instead they focused on the tools he uses to put forth his opinions.
As for your point that he doesn’t participate in the discussion, I don’t understand why that bothers you so much. He posts his thoughts, you say your piece, why do you need him to respond to your points? Is there a rule somewhere in this blog that states one must make a minimum number of comments to be able to post? If not, then he has done nothing wrong.
I see this website as a place where everyone, from the die-hard fans that remember the early days, to the casual fan that stumbles in. Some on these threads, especially the past couple days, have been attempting to limit who is allowed to say what. I think that is wrong.
My point about the people that run the site, should have been written differently. In stead “done nothing wrong” I should have said “broken no rules”. The point I was trying to express was that if the moderators determine that he is doing something wrong, then they will ban him or remove his posts. But they have not done that at this point in time. So they have, by their inaction, validated that he has broken no rules.
by stempke on Jul 2, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just because most communication in the 21st century is borderline incomprehensible
doesn’t mean this site should be the same way. The thing that makes this site so great is the quality of the posts and comments.
by placidity on Jul 2, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I understand your point
And I think you’re right that people here are probably too hard on TWreck. But here’s what bugs me about his posting without participating in anything else: If all you’re doing is making FanPosts without discussing anything else with anyone, you’re essentially just writing your own blog, rather than participating in a community-oriented blog, which is what BCB is.
So why would you write your own blog here rather than starting one at your own separate site? Obviously not to be part of the community, since TWreck clearly has no interest in that. It’s because he knows he can get read here, but no one would read him at his own site because his stuff isn’t good enough to draw visitors on its own.
And that, to me, smacks of mooching off of Jeff and Kyle’s hard work to get the readership that you clearly don’t deserve yourself. So watching him post FanPost after FanPost is kind of like watching someone try to cut in front of a long line. If you’re as good as you say you are, TWreck, then start your own blog and we’ll be reading you eventually. But until then, you’ve got to either become a part of the community or put in the work to gain an audience like everyone else on the web has had to do.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 2, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
And worse than that...
aside from those few fanposts of his that were short stream-of-consciousness stuff like this one, TWreck clearly affected some type of faux-journalism tone, as though he was writing for an audience he’s completely detached from, instead of one he’s (supposedly) a part of. In other words, he wrote like he owned the place, but of course he didn’t. And that’s where the frequent “get your own blog” calls were coming from. The first few times I actually googled around to see if he was just cross-posting from another blog (and I bet I wasn’t the only one), but I guess he smartly decided to cut out the middleman and to piggyback on BCB’s popularity right away.
Besides, the content often seemed really off the wall. This is primarily a topical Brewers blog – if you want to, say, make a highlight fanpost about ex-Brewer Mike Rivera because he just hit for the cycle in Triple-A or whatever, then that fits with the topic of the blog. Randomly name-checking historical Brewers with absolutely no context in what’s happening in baseball now makes for a very strange contribution to this blog. Perhaps it might have worked (it’s not like it was necessarily badly-written), but once combined with the complete lack of communication and other participation in the community it was pretty much doomed.
by Zeyes on Jul 2, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
But there is no line to cut in front of
Anyone can post a fan post at any time. I think TWreck’s point about not responding is actually a good one. You guys don’t seem to be willing to discuss what he writes, you just bash him, so how can you criticize him for not responding to what you write.
That said, I personally find his posts somewhat uninformative, but I just ignore them, there’s no need for personal attacks.
"If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra
by mnbrewer on Jul 2, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't like the personal attacks, either
And I don’t think I’ve made any. I’m just saying I understand why people’s sentiment goes beyond ‘meh’ into outright animosity.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 3, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
When he doesn't respond to comments in his FanPosts...
it’s hard to tell if he’s being serious or not. Again, in his early FanPosts, many people did take him seriously and asked him questions. It’s very hard to give anyone any constructive criticism when they don’t respond.
He doesn’t have to respond to anyone’s points, but he should have the decency to at least acknowledge questions and comments directed towards him.
You’re right, there aren’t any rules against people who don’t participate, but yet create FanPosts repeatedly. There’s also no rule against posting criticisms and complaints on FanPosts either.
To be honest, you’re right… we shouldn’t really be commenting in his FanPosts if it’s just to complain about him. In reality, people who find his posts offensive should be flagging them, which would then bring it to the mods’ attention. Pags has the right idea.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
So, in short,
TWrecks has made some rather empty posts and isn’t participating in threads and adding to the discussion. I think a simply reminder like Noah’s should suffice. I don’t really see anything that could be added to the discussion. If he continues on and is disrespectful just ban him or ignore him. Either way he’ll leave. After that it’s just piling on. I know I love this blog because, for the most part, people are very respectful while still providing intelligent discussion; something that certainly can’t be said about some of the other saber/stat based blogs on SBnation. Don’t be douchebags even if someone else is.
All is vanity.
by levnclf on Jul 2, 2010 2:56 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I'll go ahead and give this a guilt-ridden, hypocritical rec.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 2, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
People were dropping increasingly less subtle hints since back at fanpost #9, if not earlier.
And I didn’t get the impression that not receiving any comments on the actual content of his posts discouraged TWreck, quite the opposite actually. (Anyway, “Ignore them and they’ll leave” works on trolls, not on posters with a mission.) But yeah, this collective outburst could have been avoided if some type of moderation had happened much earlier, even if to state that there’s no problem with TWreck’s posts and that the rest of us needed to stop making a fuss.
Can I lighten the mood with a Marquette joke?
If they do demote Villy, I hope the Brewers have Buzz Williams’ assistant coach deliver the news to him, it seems to work out well.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 2, 2010 5:56 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Not to go all meta on this $h1t, but...
The thing that annoys me most about TWreck and backtocali the most is the fact that their posts often earn our ire more than contribute to anything constructive.
Yes, TW’s posts aren’t completely devoid of value, but they are quite limited in value. I wish he would post in comments of the Mug, because comments are where many “limited in value” comments tend to land, but also where some high quality gems (both humor and statsish commentary). Also, as I mentioned before, many of the issues he brings up in fanposts have already been discussed, some to the extent of beating a dead horse, in other Mugs or feature articles.
But back to my main point – I don’t like him because of what character he brings out in me: The vitrol-filled middle schooler who never got his chance to be the bully. Backtocali does this as well for many of us, sometimes myself included (but I have been known to rec a few of his posts as well, as he does bring some thought and analysis to the table)
Yes, we should endevor to be less elitist, however I think there should be SOME ground rules for new members – both for their happiness as well as the rest of ours. That being said, the reason I’m here and didn’t stick at cbs’s site is that cbs wouldn’t let me start a new thread until I had earned enough popularity or had posted enough comments in other threads. I really thought I had some insight to add to a particular situation and wanted to get my message out, but it was buried in someone else’s thread that wasn’t even the same topic as my post. I guess one difference with this site is we DO have a catchall thread that’s new every day (the mug), so it’s a slightly less hostile environment than cbs’s site for new posters. In other words, I think some new rules are in order to make the established posters more happy AND so the new users know how they can fit in best to our community and ensure that whatever point they are making is received well.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 3, 2010 7:21 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Agreed.
I really don’t like how nasty we are to people who don’t follow our (mostly unwritten) rules. It makes us seem cliquish and clannish, and, frankly, that’s not the type of community I like being a part of.
That being said, we probably need to express in writing somewhere that it’s not really cool to post 17 FanPosts before writing a single comment. I know Lookout Landing has something to that effect (though it’s a bit anal and fussy for my tastes) and I think Kyle has written a couple of posts like that – maybe it just needs to be updated and displayed more prominently.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 3, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
While those guidelines are
fair for the most part, I sincerely hope this place does not become anything like LL.
All is vanity.
The grammar thing would kill me
I was disappointed with the lack of hookers but the pancakes were delightful
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant by the 'too anal' thing.
Smart but not nasty is a good tone to strive for.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 5, 2010 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions
My take...
I agree with the comments about only fanposts. Seems like if you are here to do that, just make your own blog. Now I would not have a problem with making comments in other threads paired with the fanposts. Like said previously, this is more of a community than a blog. We love Saber, off-the-wall comments, and banter. Join the conversation and comment freely. Hell farm some post count while you are at it!
I also agree that some of the comments should be made in refuting the fanpost rather than relying on ad-hominem to attack the method. This original post could very well be debated on fact, like people have done. We can have heated discussion, but just stay away from the taking it personal.
I hope this is encouraging to others who don’t post here frequently. Even if you don’t know all the in’s and out’s of the Brewers, you can still come in and share your opinion. Just be ready to back yourself up with some information. Otherwise, just premise your argument on the fact that you may not know how to apply all the wild statistics out there and let people know that while making the post.
I am a baseball guy. I don’t understand a lot of the statistics the posters use here, but I do know that I played baseball for 25 years of my life from teeball to college to NWL. Doesn’t stop me from getting my point across at times.
And wow, thanks for C and C for posting that Lookout Landing link, that is precisely what I would have said.
Again, new posters or lurkers, join the community when you can. The community would rather feel a personal connection rather than lecturing. Start with some easy things, like introductions and go from there. Hopefully this helps, because newbs will have a friend in me.
by Bush League All Star on Jul 3, 2010 2:11 PM CDT reply actions
Let...It...Die
"The Milwaukee Brewers' line score is starting to resemble an international phone number" - Pittsburgh Pirates Radio during 20-0 shutout - 4-22-10
by MadtownTim on Jul 4, 2010 8:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

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