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Will Carlos Gomez Improve?

The community projected Carlos Gomez to hit .255/.314/.373 this year. Currently, he's hitting .229/.282/.356. With Lorenzo Cain tearing up AAA (and AA before that) and having a reputation as a stellar center fielder, the Brewers need to determine if Gomez is capable of hitting at a level to justify long-term playing time. With his current level of hitting, he's just slightly better than a replacement level player. UZR rates his defense as just average this year, and his WAR is at .2, showing that Gomez's line is actually slightly better than a replacement-level center fielder's might be. But a slightly above replacement-level center fielder does the Brewers little good in 2011 and beyond with Cain almost ready to go. 

So what kind of value does Gomez have? I explained earlier in the season how valuable a top-flight defender like Gomez would be if he could just muster up a league average line, or something close to what we projected him at. So the question on my mind is, is there hope that he could hit at that level in the future? That would put the Brewers in a much better situation going forward, giving them two valuable center fielders, which can never really be a bad thing.

Gomez seems to fall into the trap of having just enough power to justify swinging for home runs at the expense of getting a base hit at times. He seems to have a strange approach, I've noted that I can usually tell when he's gunning for a home run or a single. And that approach seems to vary from pitch to pitch.

There are always those who suggest that fast baseball players hit the ball on the ground as often as possible, and I'm not really a fan of that idea. Gomez is actually putting up the highest groundball rate of his career, and he's done a fantastic job of avoiding infield pop-ups, which had been a big problem for him in the past. Unfortunately, his line drives are down per Fangraphs classification.

Digging into some other trends, I noticed that Gomez's strikeouts and walks have held steady since last year. He strikes out in about 22% of his at-bats and walks in about 6%. It would be very helpful if he would show improvement in those two areas soon, because he is leaving himself a lot of room for better offensive production.

I generally subscribe to the idea that a batter can have plenty of influence over their BABIP, and this year, I think I can make a case for Gomez being a bit unlucky. His BABIP currently stands at .271, average is around .300. A speedy guy like Gomez should be able to top that number with ease, and he averaged around .330 in the minors. In his best year by far, with the Twins in 2008, his BABIP was .330, last year it fell to .286 and this year it's at .271. He has put up those last two numbers with the exact same overall batting average, .229. This makes me think that he's been unlucky so far. I would expect his BABIP to rebound up to about the .290 range at least, even if he maintains his current skill level of hitting. That would at least bring his actual batting average up to the .240-.250 range. He should be able to do even better than that if he starts to hit the ball better.

There's nothing really out of the ordinary in Gomez's pitch selection and swinging rates compared to past years, except that he seems to be swinging at a few more pitches outside of the zone.

So if it's time for my evaluation, I don't really know what to say. Gomez has a ton of baseball talent, and if he is able to improve his skills even slightly and that is coupled with a little luck, we could see a nice second half. Gomez needs to be able to hit something like .250/.310/.370. That doesn't seem like much, but when a player is as good at defense is Gomez is, that would at least give him league average production and some value as a starter or a trade chip. The fact that he has 3 years of team control left after this one does little good if he continues to play at replacement level.

I like Gomez as a player and though I questioned the Hardy for Gomez trade at the time, I thought Gomez had a good chance for success. I have a feeling that if he is given consistent playing time he will develop into the player I am talking about here-- a slightly below league average hitter with amazing defense, who is a valuable part of a team. However, I don't know if that potential will be reached this year, and I don't know how long the Brewers will be willing to wait with Lorenzo Cain moving fast.

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Do you see

Cain & Gomez together in the OF as a viable option, assuming we move Hart?

Shruggity.

by Mykenk on Jul 19, 2010 12:09 PM CDT reply actions  

Maybe he should stop bunting so much.

Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.

by cooper82 on Jul 19, 2010 12:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Maybe he should learn how.

It seems as though he tries so hard to start running before the ball hits the bat, that he moves the bat and pops it up.

http://www.mlbsoup.com

by tcyoung on Jul 19, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would rather he work on his plate dicipline than bunting.

Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.

by cooper82 on Jul 19, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is it possible to let Gomez mature in the minors while giving Cain a taste of the big leagues?

I just feel like it’d be much easier for him to gather himself and work on things, especially his approach at AAA, rather than at the big leagues.

http://www.mlbsoup.com

by tcyoung on Jul 19, 2010 12:38 PM CDT reply actions  

It might be easier

but assuming our coaches are going to bother trying to fix him, I’d rather entrust him to the MLB coaches than the AAA coaches. Also, I think he should get comfortable playing alongside Cain, not alternating or anything.

Shruggity.

by Mykenk on Jul 19, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's necessarily about the coaches.

I think he’s an incredibly competitive player, and at the major leagues, he wants to do the most productive thing in every single at bat, so he’s constantly changing, or forgetting, his approach. Perhaps in the minors, he could concentrate on working on one thing at a time when the spotlight isn’t on him, and the wins aren’t expected. Besides, at least down there, he’d play every day.

http://www.mlbsoup.com

by tcyoung on Jul 19, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

You might be right about Gomez and AAA

but I wonder if he isnt the type of player, personality wise, that will take that as an extreme insult and not do well with it. Something definitely has to be done. And as the article states, even if he were to put up average lines offensively, his defense makes the overall value go throught the roof. I think its too early to give up on him.

Alternatively, I dont think Cain is a CF. He’s probably better suited defensively in one of the corners. And then the issue of his bat comes into play as that of a 4th OF. As an average defender in CF, he will be worth 2 wins a year probably, but Id rather take the chance on improving Gomez with a 4 or 5 WAR upside with his defense.

by backtocali on Jul 19, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

My question is what he would learn in AAA

I brought this up in the Mug post before noticing this thread specifically devoted to Gomez.

I don’t understand what he would learn by beating up on AAA pitching. Unless they’re going to change his approach at the plate, I don’t see what he’d learn in AAA that he couldn’t learn at the major league level.

by ecocd on Jul 19, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

In AAA, he can work on his approach, without the pressure or scrutiny of the major leagues.

If he can build some confidence in that approach, he clearly doesn’t have enough confidence to maintain any sort of approach at the major league level.

http://www.mlbsoup.com

by tcyoung on Jul 19, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why isn't Cain a CF?

You’ve said it numerous times so wondering where you’re getting it from. Total Zone puts him above average at the position.

Get a ife broseph

by Supertramp on Jul 19, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Initial Reports

On Cain and OF defense had him as a corner. Its kind of like putting Hart of Braun in CF, sure they are fast, but CF is a whole different animal that requires specific jumps and routes be taken, that a lot of times cant be made up with speed.

I dont doubt he could be an average CF, I just think he is better suited as a corner, and when you compare him to Gomez, there is no doubt that Gomez is the better defender.

My personal belief about positions up the middle, like C, SS and CF is that there is a big component of God given ability that cant be learned. Sure a guy can do things mechanically correct and learn to take routes or learn how to get better jumps, but the “naturals” at those positions will have the edge in any comparision. Gomez is a natural CF imo.

by backtocali on Jul 19, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I really don't know where you're getting Cain's reputation from

One of the main things Jeff taught me about the TotalZone numbers for the minors is that you should leave a large range open and not draw too many conclusions, but even he noticed that Cain has been above average wherever he’s played in the outfield and whatever park he’s played in. I see him as a center fielder down the road. I really don’t know what reports have indicated otherwise but most scouting reports I’ve seen are that he’s a very good center fielder, and I saw him play a bit when he was with the T-Rats last year.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Jul 19, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then pair him up with someone.

Sign a veteran to work with him on a daily basis for a couple of months to learn the finer points of his position – like Geoff Jenkins. If it works out for Jenks, give him a coaching job.

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm certainly not giving up on him

I think he could benefit from a month or so in the minors. I’d like to send him down, and bring him back up with the September callups.

Sure, his defense makes him a slightly above average player. But I don’t care if he’s a slightly above average player in a lost season, when he can be an above average player in 2011 or 2012.

http://www.mlbsoup.com

by tcyoung on Jul 19, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do we have someone in AAA

who can break down his swing, stance, etc and give him the one-on-one attention he needs?

SRS BSNS

by Rubie Q on Jul 19, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I Just Don't See It

This article sounds like a lot of wishful thinking—plenty of “ifs” and “buts” coupled with the always safe “bad luck.”

I think there is a reason why two organizations have moved Gomez on before he was 24—tools or not, he doesn’t use his talent. This is most evident in his unfocused and impetuous approach at the plate. Moreover, his work in CF has been pedestrian at best and, given his advance billing, disappointing at worst. “Amazing” defense? At times he has been nothing short of amazingly bad—taking poor angles, missing the cut-off man, throwing to the wrong base, throwing inaccurately, getting bad jumps, just plain dropping catchable balls…all of this has been on display in his short 3.5 months with the Brewers.

The notion of playing him along side Cain is ridiculous. It is unclear how Lo will develop, but I doubt he is going to have the kind of offense necessary to be a corner OF, and Gomez clearly does not have that sort of game. To me this is clearly an either/or situation, and at this point I think MKE should admit what NYM and MN did and move forward with Cain.

by crichar3 on Jul 19, 2010 1:03 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

This

I was disappointed with the lack of hookers but the pancakes were delightful

by Michael M on Jul 19, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cain is for real.

Anyone else look at the guy play and see a future all-star? I sure did.

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I did just based on his bat speed

I was disappointed with the lack of hookers but the pancakes were delightful

by Michael M on Jul 19, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

HOF! HOF!

http://www.mlbsoup.com

by tcyoung on Jul 19, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I understand I'm being mocked

But I should expect that, I’m less a numbers guy and more of an intangibles guy. Cain strikes me as a guy who is mentally and physically prepared to play at this level. He’s got a lot of work ahead of him, and he needs to grow into his body a little, but imo he’s ready to stay and play every day. If Hart is traded start him in right every day, if Fielder is traded start him in left and move Braun to first.

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty optimistic about Cain

He’s only been playing baseball for seven years, total. Who knows what his ceiling is?

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Jul 19, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you mean "professional baseball"?

Otherwise, I have a hard time believing that he didn’t play any ball in high school or college.

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Jul 20, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don’t think you can say that the Mets gave up on him. They used him to acquire the best pitcher in the majors at the time. Without Gomez in the deal, it would not have happened.

"I agree but dont agree"

by juggernaut400 on Jul 19, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

no

Statistically, we know his numbers suck. However, as much of a numbers guy as I am, sometimes there are little things in a player (pro or con) that you just have to see first hand.

Gomez is one of those guys that is just cluless out there at times. He ranks right up there with Alex Sanchez as one of the worst situational players I have seen.

Put him in a bases loaded situation where the pitcher is struggling to find the plate, and he will swing at the first lousy pitch he sees.

Ask him to get a sac bunt down in a key situation, forget it.

He isn’t a good baserunner, and his biggest blunders will often come in key situations.

He isn’t a good player at the moment on paper, and I think he is even worse when you see him every day. I totally see why teams have given up on him despite his raw skills.

He looks to me like your classic tools guy that will never get it.

I actually like the kid as it looks to me that he tries hard and has some natural enthusiasm for the game. He can be fun to watch at times, but I just don’t see any baseball acumen whatsoever.

by badgermaniac on Jul 19, 2010 1:30 PM CDT reply actions  

(see: Weeks, Rickie Darnell, cir. 2005-08)

"The Milwaukee Brewers' line score is starting to resemble an international phone number" - Pittsburgh Pirates Radio during 20-0 shutout - 4-22-10

by MadtownTim on Jul 19, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

The key difference

Despite his other problems, Weeks always had a good approach at the plate and good plate discipline. Gomez never has.

Get a ife broseph

by Supertramp on Jul 19, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bingo.

Rickie’s worst OBP year was .333. GoGo has yet to post one over .300

by klwillis45 on Jul 19, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

That may be so

but the exact same things were said about Weeks year after year after year. Especially Weeks being a lead-off hitter, a .333 OBP is horrible.

"The Milwaukee Brewers' line score is starting to resemble an international phone number" - Pittsburgh Pirates Radio during 20-0 shutout - 4-22-10

by MadtownTim on Jul 19, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

So don't hit him leadoff then.

A .333 OBP is acceptable in some lineup spots.
A sub-.300 isn’t acceptable anywhere.

by klwillis45 on Jul 19, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

His first full year as lead-off he had a .363 OBP

I see your point though, similar complaints about him.

Personally, I was always a believer in Weeks because he had a good approach at the plate and knew (ok…hoped) the rest of his game would follow — I’m not a believer in Gomez because he lacks any sort of plate discipline.

Get a ife broseph

by Supertramp on Jul 19, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Full agreement

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Jul 19, 2010 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rickies potential was always derailed by injury, Gomez potential is being derailed by his own resistance to change imo.

"I agree but dont agree"

by juggernaut400 on Jul 19, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

How do you know he's resistant to change?

Maybe he’s doing so poorly because he’s constantly changing something because it doesn’t work instantly?

Shruggity.

by Mykenk on Jul 19, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

How does he have good plate discipline

When he already has more career strikeouts than Gregg Zaun?

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

What do Ks have to do with plate discipline?

It’s hard to K when you swing at balls and put them in play…. poorly.

by klwillis45 on Jul 19, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Plate discipline has nothing to do with strikeouts

Actually, many hitters with good plate discipline do have a fair amount of strikeouts, because they’re confident enough in which pitches they can hit to take stuff that’s close and occasionally take called third strikes. By plate discipline, I’m usually looking at how high their OBP is above their average.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Jul 19, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Strikeouts are about either swinging at something you shouldn’t have, not swinging at something you should have, or missing the ball completely. Which one of those tells me that Rickie was a disciplined hitter 103 times so far this season?

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

jordon's point (i assume)

is sometimes forcing the ball in play is no better. It can lead to weak grounders which are almost as guaranteed of an out. Being patient at the plate or protecting it by fouling off a bunch can also lead to increased opponent’s pitch counts, but may very well end in a K.

Also, he’s had the most PAs on the team and last I checked (about 10 days ago) in the league, so has had more opportunities to K. You should perhaps look at K% and not absolute, but I believe you did do that earlier.

by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 19, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's the main point.

Maybe we’re just discussing the definition of the term “plate discipline”, but here I’m reverting to the argument of why strikeouts don’t matter in terms of overall production.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Jul 19, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think we're crossing wires on the term

Back when I played we were taught that you would start out seeking pitches and opportunities, but when you got down to two strikes it was your job to defend the plate. Don’t let strikes in, don’t swing at balls. It seems like this philosophy has gone the way of the dinosaur, with players these days assuming that if you can’t get good strength on the ball it’s not worth swinging at all.

So we end up with leadoff hitters with double-digit homer and triple-digit strikeout totals, and no one in the entire league is hitting even close to Wade Boggs’ career average. In my book that’s not discipline, that’s gambling.

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Boggs also drank 64 beers on a cross country flight

There is some major discipline involved to accomplish that feat.

Get a ife broseph

by Supertramp on Jul 19, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is the evolution of baseball (or any sport for that matter)

Players are better. Pitchers have gotten better, and batters have gotten better, and strategies have gotten better.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Jul 19, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not better. Payday-driven.

For the same reason that nobody in the NBA can shoot like Larry Bird did – not because he was a fucking mutant, but because he gave a damn and practiced every day of his life – nobody in baseball has any discipline anymore except maybe Ichiro Suzuki, everyone is swinging for the payday and thinking that if they can hit line drives over the outfield wall then it makes them a good hitter.

It’s bullshit. No wonder this team can’t hit, no wonder it’s the “year of the pitcher”, no wonder no one is batting .330 with all the advanced medicine and technology and analysis available to them – because no one practices their skills and can even lay down a bunt or steal third base anymore.

I’m disgusted.

by nullacct on Jul 19, 2010 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a fundamental disagreement we have then.

I think there’s a conscious trade off between strikeouts and hitting for power, and players realize the balancing point and are (in my opinion correctly) realizing that it is more efficient to use the approach that has become more popular today. It’s now commonly accepted that a hitter who hits .250/.350/.400 is better than a hitter who hits .300/.310/.400. Baseball wasn’t designed so that a .300 hitter would be a great player, that’s just what everyone thought back then. This team can hit, and score. Pitchers have gotten better, hitters have gotten better, and the net effect has been pretty minimal on the overall game, but I think one notable difference is that pitchers have become less durable and more prone to injury due to the increased stress and focus required on every pitch.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Jul 19, 2010 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

I'm getting unreasonably grumpy and almost Old Vegas irrational

The frustration of waiting for this team to make personnel decisions is setting in

by nullacct on Jul 20, 2010 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

The more things change, the more they stay the same

2010: .260/.329/.406
2005: .264/.330/.419
2000: .270/.345/.437
1995: .267/.338/.417
1990: .258/.325/.385
1985: .257/.323/.391
1980: .265/.326/.388
1975: .258/.327/.374
1970: .254/.326/.385

Only noticeable spike is 95-00 (steroid era)

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Jul 19, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Batting average is about as good as it's ever been since the 1950s

Teams walk at about the same rate but have more doubles and HR. Strikeouts have increased sharply. The increase in Ks and the decrease in SB may make the game less aesthetically pleasing for some people, even if the overall level of offense is the same.

Maybe he should play first base instead. That is, he should lie out there and we can step on him when we get a hit.

by TheJay on Jul 20, 2010 6:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Worth noting

That GIDP, the bad outcome that is often pointed to as proof of why Ks are not always bad, has not dropped along with the K increase and in fact is the same as the early 1980s when OBP was similar and batters K’d 2 fewer times each game.

Maybe he should play first base instead. That is, he should lie out there and we can step on him when we get a hit.

by TheJay on Jul 20, 2010 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

So...

Does that mean that instead of grounding or flying out, hitters are simply striking out?

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Jul 20, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Could be

Also, with the slight increase in OBP there is an extra baserunner (aka GIDP opportunity) every couple games.

Maybe he should play first base instead. That is, he should lie out there and we can step on him when we get a hit.

by TheJay on Jul 20, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ahem...
nobody in baseball has any discipline anymore except maybe Ichiro Suzuki

His Majesty in STL would disagree with that statement.

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Jul 20, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Weeks

1. Weeks always had very tangible measurable BASEBALL SPECIFIC results. Gomez has had very little in this regard. Everyone can see he can throw and run fast and all that stuff, but when you look at his measurable results, they point to significant holes.

Weeks has always been pretty good. His problem has often been one of consistency/health. Gomez has just been plain bad.

2. Even that being said, Weeks never struck me as an obscenely poor fundamental player. Yes, you saw some butched plays in the field or the strikeout on the low and outside breaking ball, but not the constant brain-farts that we see with Gomez. I know some fans were frustrated because they thought that Weeks should be hitting .325, but you never saw the bonehead play after bonehead play.

3. It is also important to realize that at age 24 (Gomez this year), Weeks was putting up an .800+ OPS season. His OPS’ had gone from .536 to .727 to .766 to .807. Gomez has been stagnating at the same level (about .650) for three years now.

Terrible comparison IMO.

by badgermaniac on Jul 19, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

agree

with two exceptions: (1) i’m not sure you can say being traded twice is the same as “giving up on”. sometimes you have to trade something you didn’t give up on in order to get something you need. (but maybe they did give up — i just don’t know); (2) i don’t like him and you said you did.

by Capt Science on Jul 19, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seems like a one tool player

Like that guy in high school that had one pick up line, but it seemed to work with the ladies. Years later he’s still working the same line; yeah it works some times, but most of the time its just embarassing to watch him in action.

He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…

by jarlbartar on Jul 19, 2010 2:26 PM CDT reply actions  

This team is a poorly assembled mess.

It’s Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, and Hart (I can’t believe he’s in that category either), and a collection of role players either past their prime or being asked to do more than they are capable of, or both (Counsell, JEd, Wolf, Kottaras, Narveson), aging veterans with no discernable on-field value (Hoffman, Davis), youngsters who can’t seem to develop to their potential (Parra, Gomez), or who are too early in their careers to play to that potential (Cain, Lucroy).

I know when you’re in places like Milwaukee you have to make do with what you can afford at times, but it seems like we don’t acquire players; we acquire problems that we somehow think we can shimmy into a complete, competitive roster.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 19, 2010 2:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Some of these guys never had a prime!

This guy’s dead! Then cross him off the list!

Steve
http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com

by stigmo on Jul 20, 2010 6:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Something you didn't mention

It hasn’t even been his bat keeping him down this season, but his normally stellar defense. In the first half he’s been evaluated as below average both by UZR/150 and TZ. If his UZR/150 were back up to his career levels in CF, he’d already be worth more than a half a win more over the first half of the season.

I also think that, in addition to hitting better, the Brewers should start utilizing his speed more. He may not have superb instincts, but I think his raw speed makes him the kind of player who could add at least around half a win just through stolen bases. Not many players are anywhere near as fast as Gomez, he should play to his strengths.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Jul 19, 2010 4:02 PM CDT reply actions  

I wonder

Is Gomez just getting accustomed to Miller Park? It seems like a center fielder would need some time to learn the field with regard to where the wall is and how to pick up balls off the bat. Maybe he’ll be back to his old self this half and especially next season.

by ecocd on Jul 19, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I kinda like having him around

Just for ridiculous moments like scoring from first on a sac bunt to win the game, etc.

His hitting approach sucks, but …I mean Christ, coach the kid. His instincts are terrible – he needs to get his brain re-wired. It’s not like he’s 34 and can’t learn new tricks, and while he’s clearly cocky he also MUST to be able to see there’s a problem and think other people might just possibly know the solution.

by Archibaldcrane on Jul 19, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

sounds great...

..but baseball history is loaded with these guys. They virtually never turn it around.

You can certainly make strides in your game at age 24+, but for the most part, you are who you are and improvement is just incremental.

by badgermaniac on Jul 19, 2010 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Difference

There is a difference in guys changing their entire skill set and guys who just haven’t gotten a chance yet.

Now, I will be the first to say that Casey has indeed surprised and exceeded his projections, but when you look at his skill set, he is still kind of the same player…just with a little more pop.

On the other hand, guys who are clueless in managing the strike zone rarely suddenly “figure it out”. It is such a fundamental skill that at some baseline level, you either have it by age 24 or you don’t.

by badgermaniac on Jul 19, 2010 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's true

Plenty of players aren’t even in the majors by age 24. It’s unfortunate that the Mets/Twins rushed Gomez to the majors so early, but let’s not act like he’s not still incredibly young. He has great tools and that’s always going to leave open the door of him one day fulfilling his potential, whether or not the Brewers want to wait for him to develop that potential is the only question.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Jul 19, 2010 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

What is it that Rock always said about Willy Taveras?

You can’t steal first…

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Jul 19, 2010 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tools Schmools

The problem is that players very very VERY rarely develop plate discipline at age 24. Players often improve their plate discipline. They improve their power. They improve their fielding. All of these are done in incremental steps. Rarely however do you have a guy with no power develop great power (minus Brady Anderson and the roid crowd). Rarely do you go from a butcher in the field to a Gold Glove. Like Rickie Weeks, you go from really bad to solid (a very impressive improvement).

When you have a guy who has an OBP that can’t get over .290, he has so far to go to become average that it becomes very unlikely.

The best bet for Gomez is that he develops just a bit of plate discipline to maybe get into that .320 range, and he reverts back to being a plus fielder. That isn’t a star ,but has some value.

The problem as I see it is that even if he makes that step, he is fundamentally so poor in all of these little areas, that he ceases to really help you.

I have been following these tools guys for 35 years and I can’t tell you how often I hear about them “being rushed” or just give them time. Sometimes, that is true ,but rarely is it true for guys like Gomez (in my experience).

by badgermaniac on Jul 19, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are plenty of guys who developed into Hall of Famers too

I’m not saying Gomez is destined to be a star, but it’s probably still too early to say either way.

Ryan Braun: He loves it.

by SRB on Jul 19, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

How many Hall of Famers were hapless at 24?

Anyway, just throwing this out there: http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/shareit/3b92F

Maybe he should play first base instead. That is, he should lie out there and we can step on him when we get a hit.

by TheJay on Jul 20, 2010 6:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

See also

Listach, Pat.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Jul 19, 2010 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

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