Is Mark Attanasio too close?
I'll probably get grilled for this, but with the seemingly "dead" Brewer trading season this year, it's a thought I have had.
Reports are that DM and MA talk every day. There is no doubt that MA is a fan. There have also been reports that MA educated himself about being a baseball owner pretty vigorously after he first bought the team by talking to people in the game about how to run things successfully.
I just wonder if the person who he learned most from wasnt DM, and that MA now feels some sort of loyalty and debt to him for helping him out those first few years and also taking the team to the playoffs pretty quickly after the purchase of the team and a modicum of success early on.
We know that MA was a big Yankees fan as a child, and that he doesnt mind opening the wallet to try and improve the team "Yankee style". But running a small market MLB team like the Brewers isnt like running an investment firm or other types of businesses.
I would assume that he knows that the business model that would be most successful for the Milwaukee Brewers has to involve developing young players, building up the scouting and development staff, trading prospects away if you are "close" to a playoff chance and only then, never signing big FA contracts, etc.
This whole notion of being "blown away" when it comes to a trade involving Prince Fielder, is one that might hurt the team's future for the next few years. He puts up big numbers it is true, but he's expensive, and he wont be here past next year. Never mind the "PR" damage you would suffer if you trade away one of your best players for prospects, its a deal that can help the team. And the fans will reward you down the road if it results in better teams for a more sustained period of time. Fielder for Hudson/Viciedo to the White Sox would have been a very good trade. Fielder to the Giants for Sanchez and Neal would have been a good trade too. The whole comparison between Fielder and Teixiera when it comes to trades is valid, but that trade resulted in 4 players who were about 2 years away and didnt involve established major leaguers. The "rumored" deals would have been equally good for the team as the Teixiera deal to the Braves was.
Some of the most successful franchises in the game are ones that have owners who are hands off and have the knowledge to let their baseball people make the decisions and run the club the best way possible. Back in the 80s and 90s Ted Turner had his hands in the day to day dealings of the team, it wasnt until he surrendered that control to Stan Kasten, John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox that the team started to flourish.
My reason for this whole post is that maybe if MA wasnt so involved to the point where he has a daily phone call with his "buddy" who's running his ballclub, and doesnt seem to have the right philosophy when it comes to running a small market team, he would have no problem firing the poorly performing GM and hire someone with a long term plan for the franchise built on scouting and player development (no matter how much it might hurt in the short term).
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One word: proofreading
Some of your points seem good, but it wasn’t a good read. A little too jumpy – not cohesive enough.
Was attempting a sort of stream of consciousness approach there
Easily failed by that standard.
I just think these things are all interrelated….Melvin keeping his job as GM, holding out for the blockbuster return for Fielder, and the unwillingness to take on more of a small market approach to the team are things that stem from MA being a fan first.
I think SoC is good for short posts
not so great for “long” articles.
Possibly it was more cohesive than I could put together, so I shouldn’t bitch too loudly.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 29, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Considering the amount of money involved, I doubt Mark A is letting his personal relationship with Melvin get in the way
I also think it’s a good thing that Melvin is holding out for a huge return. Maybe there aren’t buyers right now, but that doesn’t mean he should panic and take the best or first offer that he gets (like what just happened in Arizona). I would rather Melvin hold out for a return that he considers good, and take the risk of not getting one in the winter, than to settle for something like Sanchez/Neal. That would be a disaster.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
by SRB on Jul 29, 2010 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 7 recs
I read a lot of Brewer stuff and never seen the “talk every day” thing before. I don’t doubt it to be true, but do you have a link?
I think I disagree on the premise that Melvin and Mark A are really good friends or outside the norm for any GM/Owner relationship. You don’t really back it up with anything other than wild speculation that Melvin taught him everything he knows, he’s indebted to him, they are “buddies,” etc. etc. Again, may be true but I could argue that they hate each other and have just as much to back it up.
Your agenda and dislike for Mark A. is as transparent as your agenda and dislike towards Braun. There are arguments to be made that about Mark A but this just seems like a reach written to fit your narrative.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 29, 2010 12:01 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
The "they talk every day" point
is a direct quote from Mark A in that brewers “Homestand” show that was on ESPN a week or so ago.
Both have said this
When they are in the booth with BA and Rock, if I recall. About “call each other every day”.
I dont have a dislike for the guy, I just wonder if this isnt the case. Why else would DM remain GM?
And I dont know how much MA has his hands in the day to day affairs of the team. All I know is that the owners who are like that dont tend to have a lot of success. MA is a business man, and part of running a successful business is to not only know your limitations, but to also know what the parameters are for succeeding in that business. Milwaukee, as the smallest MLB market, should realistically be running a Twins/Marlins/Rays/Rockies sort of business plan. If they dont, and dont contstantly have an eye on the future (along with the present), the implications could be disastrous.
Hes a dramatic improvement over the Seligs. They hated to spend money to improve the team, but they also drafted poorly and didnt get the right people in place to run the baseball side of things. But spending too much, like a larger market team, isnt a good recipe either. I just think that with the Brewers, not even the happy medium can work well. Fans will support a winner, and they will love you for it no matter how you accomplish it.
MA is a business man, and part of running a successful business is to not only know your limitations, but to also know what the parameters are for succeeding in that business.
What makes you think Mark doesn’t know this and isn’t doing this?
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 29, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
He could
But the product on the field the past 2 years, coupled with Melvin still being employed, along with the very quiet trade front right now, all lead me to that conclusion.
I believe he has also made statements about holdign steady on payroll. That would lead me to believe he thinks the team can function quite well under the current framework (ie sign a hefty FA contract every year) and spend instead of develop a winner.
This is where we disagree...
… I don’t think the choices are spend OR develop a winner. I think they can make a significant FA signing every 2-3 years and still develop a winning organization. I don’t think it’s an either or, because I don’t buy the notion that deploying resources towards free agency results in the scouting and developmental staff getting the shaft, and I’ve yet to see an argument that supports that position.
They just have to be better at targetting and acquiring the right free agents, and their failures on that front once again points out Melvin’s inadequacies. I’m not a guy who thinks that Wolf is Suppan redux, and even if it does happen, it’ll be less crippling because the dollars are lower and the length of the deal is shorter, but I think it’s pretty clear that for the second consecutive year, the resources spent in free agency weren’t spent wisely. That’s on Melvin, not Attanasio, until Attanasio declines to hold Melvin responsible for it, which I’ll admit looks likely.
And the one thing I’ll give Melvin is that I have less of a problem with the quiet trade front right now. Rumors aren’t facts, and we don’t know what’s been offered. I don’t like his discussion of the refusal of other teams to offer players on currently on their MLB roster for Fielder et al any more than you do, but I do like the fact that, at least so far, he’s refusing to settle. If he later acknowledges an offer was made that you think he should have taken, then bang away at him. But I don’t think it’s fair to assume that the names we occasionally read in the paper were actually on the table in 1 for 1, 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deals.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 29, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
The irony
12 hours after this gets posted the Twins ($97M payroll) trade their #2 prospect for a relief pitcher.
Get a ife broseph
Brewers are foolish for having a big payroll and need to always be thinking about the future, like the Twins. Yesterday the Twins (6th best record in AL) traded their future for a relief pitcher who is in line for a decent pay increase next year.
In other words, its like rain on your wedding day.
Get a ife broseph
It rained like crazy on my wedding day
And we were supposed to have an outdoor wedding. Luckily the rental we had for the space also included an indoor space.
Its supposedly good luck to have rain on your wedding day, especially if you’re Irish.
I’m getting married in a couple weeks at an outdoor venue. If it rains I’ll inform the fiance it’s good luck — I’m sure that will go over great.
Get a ife broseph
I hear ya
We got married down at Wind Point Lighthouse in Racine Co, and it was pouring rain. Luckily the rental also included the town hall. And lucky for me my wife loves rain.
I wouldn't hate on the Capps trade so soon
The Twins, at this point, need another catcher like they need a hole in the head. Apparently they trust Drew Butera’s defensive abilities (or, more to the point, Carl Pavano does) a heck of a lot more than they do Ramos or Morales, and if Mauer goes down again can you really, truly, replace Joe Mauer?
More to the point, Matt Guerrier, Jesse Crain, and Jon Rauch are all eligible for free agency after the 2010 season. Capps isn’t eligible until after 2011. If the Twins fail to sign one, two, or any of these and Joe Nathan does come back off his injury, Capps will be setting him up. If he doesn’t, he’ll be closing.
This is from the end of May, but it's the best I could find:
“I can tell you unequivocally, we are not making a manager change on Monday,” Attanasio said. "So there will be no news on Monday. We can lose the next two games, 15-3, and we’re not making a manager change.
“Doug needs to make those decisions and Doug’s been pretty firm in his support of Ken so I’m going to fall in line. … I talk to Doug every day. We’re in sync on this.”
SRS BSNS
i think its the theory
that people almost always over value their own “property”, you see it when people are selling vehicles, homes and other posessions. They have a perceived value based on sentiment and personal attachments to their “property”.
In this respect I feel DM probably over values the guys that his organization developed and brought up. Its one thing to talk about potential and upside of the players on the trading block, but that normally does not equate to increased trade / resale value.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
If anything, I think Melvin overvalues recent performance.
That goes for (ordered by decreasing impact):
1) FA signings for positions at which there’s a perceived or real high-priority need (all too often the relief pitchers…),
2) contract extensions to current Brewers of average-ish quality (who’s going to get the next Brady Clark/Bill Hall/Derrick Turnbow contract?),
3) trading away productive players.
wait...with a link you named like that
is this SFW? I don’t want to be looking at kiddieporn
by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 30, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't Mark A force Melvin's hand with the firing of Yost?
If anything, that suggests to me that Mark A is willing to let Melvin run the show, but only to a point.
When that mythical line is crossed (e.g., the team’s poor performance under Yost in Sept. 2008), Mark A has shown the willingness to step in and do what he feels needs to be done.
by Oakland Brewer Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:29 PM CDT reply actions
Regarding potential Fielder dealings
If the Brewers are looking for a major league arm and prospects for Fielder, getting that package during the season from a team in a pennant race is virtually impossible. They’re not going to blow-up their rotation just to pick up a slugger. Pitchers win playoff series.
The best chance to get an “overwhelming” deal done with Fielder and/or Hart is going to be done in the off-season. I don’t see any deals getting done before the deadline (I know, a big shocker given the time frame remaining). However, I think our team is going to look pretty different come spring training ’11.
"The Milwaukee Brewers' line score is starting to resemble an international phone number" - Pittsburgh Pirates Radio during 20-0 shutout - 4-22-10
by MadtownTim on Jul 29, 2010 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
"Major League Ready"
has a much different definition for the brewers than it does for most other teams…
I might be major league ready for the Brewers
by BrewCrewBrian on Jul 29, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
heh
maybe Brian is a pitcher, but even so, he’s got a few men to beat out for the job.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 30, 2010 5:35 AM CDT up reply actions
it's impossible to tell
(a) rumored deals aren’t always the same as real deals, so who knows if any of those offers were even made?
(b) one could also argue that we’re too close. i think fangraphs did a GM ranking and thought very highly of melvin, but we’re here and many of us don’t. so maybe we’re overreacting as well. i think melvin is a good GM, but has issues and maybe we’re just overly aware of those OR he’s not “new school” enough for the likes of this blog.
by Capt Science on Jul 29, 2010 12:54 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
My guess is that most baseball owners are fans.
I’m not sure why that’s a problem. But then, I don’t regard the word as a put down either. I have heard Attanasio say some things that make me wonder if isn’t a little too loyal to Melvin, though I doubt it has anything to do with the notion that Melvin taught Attanasio what he knows about baseball.
Instead, I think Attanasio simply credits Melvin with the success the franchise has had since Attanasio bought the team. I don’t really agree with that appraisal myself, and I’m not sure a lot of fans do either. That’s where the disconnect is, in my opinion, rather than the possibility that Attanasio is a fan in addition to an owner or that he regards Melvin as too close a friend to hold him accountable for the teams failings. But if you attribute that outlook to Attanasio, everything else makes sense. The team’s down the last 12 months (they were above .500 last year until July), and the window of opportunity with this core of talent is closed. I think Attanasio knew that the team was built to win in 2007 and 2008 (before Sheets’ departure). Things didn’t fall together the way they’d hoped and some retooling is clearly inevitable at this point, but if Attanasio thinks Melvin put the pieces together in 07 and 08 that got them a playoff appearance and might have gotten them a lot further if not for injuries to Sheets and Gallardo, then I can understand why that would be the basis of him saying that fans would be “dealing with” Doug Melvin for “years”, as he did a couple of months back.
I disagree with that evaluation, but I think that (and the possibility that Attanasio knows things btc and I don’t) are far more plausible explanations for the apparent between his view on Melvin and ours (meaning those of BTC and myself, and anyone else who thinks Melvin should be fired at the end of the year).
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 29, 2010 1:35 PM CDT reply actions
end of year?
i vote for september after all waiver trades that can affect playoff rosters are done.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jul 29, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm trying to be somewhat realistic.
I would have fired him a month ago just to prevent him from being involved the departures of Fielder/Hart/Weeks from the roster and the compensation that might come back the other way. For better or worse, I don’t think there’s any chance he gets canned before the end of the season, and very little chance it’ll happen even then.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 29, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think Attanasio is being completely honest
I think he’s telling us what we need to hear at the time, and in the long run if he sees a better option, he’ll take it. He’s loyal to Melvin in the way that any good businessman is to his employees – that having their loyalty in return, for as long as you require it, is a profitable thing.
by nullacct on Jul 29, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
We'll see.
I hope you’re right.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 29, 2010 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
As an owner, I imagine Selig was more involved
He was so involved in baseball he took over the whole league
by nullacct on Jul 29, 2010 2:07 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Naive more then to close
I agree with most of this. While buddy buddy may sound to far, I’d say that MAs nativity on how this sized market is supposed to run enabled DM to have a very long leash. Mark will eventually grow into a better owner and understand that perhaps DM isn’t doing what’s best for the club. This kind of stuff happens in every business, new guy is hands off for awhile and buys into the system in place… then changes things eventually.
Autocorrect gone horribly wrong
I question MAs nativity. I suppose His naivete is could be understood.
I'm actually drinking the Kool-Aid on this one
So much of sports is based on personalities and if your boss likes you and can find reasons to keep you, he doesn’t just dump you, especially if he doesn’t have faith that there’s someone out there better. Only time will tell if Melvin is allowed to build the team for 2011. At that point we will know something is happening behind the scenes.
Not that we have the right to a completely transparent organization, but if DM isn’t gone at the end of the season, I’d like a specific justification as a fan. Nothing vague about the ups and downs of baseball. He’s made so many bad decisions that it’s hard to look past them unless you’re someone actively looking for M&M’s in a pile of sh*t. If I don’t have long-term faith in the club, I’m not going to be paying as much attention to them, either.
by ecocd on Jul 30, 2010 7:47 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Really not.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 1, 2010 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions

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