Wednesday's Frosty Mug
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 25, 2010 9:46 AM CDT
in Milwaukee Brewers News
Email
PrintSome things to read while becoming one of us.
Carlos Gomez went 1-for-4 with a ninth inning bunt single in his return to the lineup last night (dropping his OBP to .285), then told Anthony Witrado that he's the team's best center fielder. Tom Haudricourt says Gomez wasted no time reminding fans how bad he's been this year.
A majority of BCB readers don't share his confidence. 53% of voters in this week's BCB Tracking Poll think Gomez should have been left in AAA until September 1 instead of being activated this week, and 45% are now disapproving of the trade that acquired him from the Twins.
Gomez was in the lineup in place of Corey Hart, who continues to recover from his sore hamstring. Hart was able to pinch hit in the ninth inning, popping out to short. He could be back in the lineup today.
The big story off the field yesterday was the unveiling of Bud Selig's statue outside Miller Park. Tom Haudricourt has a list of baseball stars past and present who were on hand for the ceremony and quotes from the post-ceremony press conference, including this one from Robin Yount suggesting he nearly left for California in 1990. Even Kevin Kaduk of Big League Stew, who had previously spoken out against the statue, is now acknowledging its place. Meanwhile, Drew Olson makes the case that a statue for Bob Uecker should be next.
Other notes from the field:
- Rod Barajas, Casey McGehee and Dave Bush are leading FanGraphs' Star of the Game voting.
- Here are last night's MLB.com video highlights.
- If you missed last night's FS Wisconsin broadcast, you missed out on this masterpiece.
Another day, another note on Manny Parra. Jack Moore of Disciples of Uecker has a look at Parra's struggles and upside, and it looks like his optimism appears to be starting to fade a bit: For the first time I can recall, he's suggesting the possibility that Parra might be better utilized in the bullpen or in a more non-traditional starting role.
It's been a while since we've discussed Prince Fielder trade stories, and if Ken Rosenthal is right it might be a while before we discuss them again: He makes the case that a free agent market full of first basemen might limit the market for Fielder's services and make it difficult for the Brewers to fair value in return for him.
Instead, I guess we'll settle for a discussion of Fielder's defense. Tom Tango needs your help identifying the defensive strengths and weaknesses of Brewer position players in his annual Fan Scouting Report. You can cast your votes here and see the results here.
If the Brewers are serious about negotiating a contract extension for Rickie Weeks, there's no longer anything stopping them from doing so. Negotiations had been put on hold while Weeks hired a new agent, but he's now settled on Greg Genske of Legacy Sports. Genske's Wikipedia page says he also represents CC Sabathia, Adam Dunn, Livan Hernandez, Scott Kazmir and Vernon Wells, among others.
In the minors:
- The affiliates went 4-1 last night, with Jake Odorizzi (eight innings) and Adrian Rosario (one inning) combining to pitch the third no-hitter in Wisconsin Timber Rattler history, beating Cedar Rapids 3-0. You can read about that and more in today's Minor League Notes.
- Jack Moore notes that Odorizzi has struck out 121 opposing batters in 108 innings this season. He was also one strike away from a combined no-hitter with Damon Krestalude in April.
- That wasn't Wisconsin's only good news yesterday, though: They also have three Midwest League postseason All Stars: outfielder Khris Davis, second baseman Scooter Gennett, and reliever Jon Pokorny.
- Speaking of Gennett, he's been out of the lineup for nearly a week now, and Battlekow spotted a note in the Cedar Rapids Gazette suggesting that he's "in the doghouse" with manager Jeff Isom.
- Don't be surprised if Huntsville ends up as one of the lowest rated teams defensively in all of minor league baseball this season. Adam Foster of Project Prospect notes that Caleb Gindl (in center field) and Zelous Wheeler (at shortstop) are playing out of position defensively for the Stars. Gindl is playing in place of Logan Schafer, who has missed most of the season due to injury, and Wheeler is at short because there's no room for him at second (Brett Lawrie) or third (Taylor Green).
- The Nashville Sounds have a profile of reliever Donovan Hand.
On power rankings: SB Nation has the Brewers at 17, up four spots.
The final nomination for the SBN Wisconsin Hall of Fame is in, with Bucky's 5th Quarter nominating Al Toon. Fan voting for the inaugural class will open next week.
Around baseball:
Cardinals: Placed reliever Dennys Reyes on the DL with a left elbow strain.
Diamondbacks: Released shortstop Bobby Crosby.
Phillies: Signed pitcher Nate Robertson to a minor league deal.
Rangers: Designated infielder Joaquin Arias for assignment.
Reds: Placed Jim Edmonds on the DL with an oblique strain.
If you've seen any of the highlight shows this morning (or were up late), you've probably heard about last night's Phillies-Astros game, which went 16 innings and featured Roy Oswalt, forced into action in the outfield against his former team, grounding out to end it. Wezen-ball has a look at the history of pitchers playing the field.
Happy birthday today to:
- Brevard County Manatee Cody Scarpetta, who turns 22.
- AZL Brewer Nick Shaw, who also turns 22.
- Nashville Sound David Johnson, who turns 28.
- 1981-85 Brewer Rollie Fingers, who turns 64.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to rename a school.
Drink up.
193 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Here is a not traditional starting role Manny can fill
Starting on some other team hell throw in Bush and Naverson while we are at it.
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
You are telling me that we cannot find 3 guys who can do better than these three?
There is not a guy pitching in Japan or Mexico or Peru that might be able to go 7 innings we have been watching Bush and Manny not reach their potential for how many years now?
Or you keep one of them as your number 5 and try and find a 3 and a 4 or spend some money and find a 2 make Wolf the 3 and find a 4
But the Bush Manny ship has sailed, we keep reinforcing failure with these two, time to burn that bridge and try a new path(nice use of cliches don’t you think)
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
Are you talking immediately?
If you’re talking about this off season, then sure, ship them all to who cares and sign some top Latvian prospect and throw him out there. But there’s no one we can just toss in there right now and still appease fans…
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
No I am looking ahead to 2011 season
This season you just sit back and watch the Zeppelin crash and burn nothing else we can do
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
My guess is "no"
Not without trading Braun, anyway. Do you really think there are pitchers available on the trade market or within the Brewers payroll that will be able to reliably go 7 innings? Take a look at the free agent starter market from this past season. There’s probably one or two in total that have had seasons that successful.
Go Reds! (This signature applies only through the 2010 regular season)
I am saying there has to be someone out there
I refuse to believe Bush and Manny are the best we can do
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
Yeah, that's the other side of the same trap.
Trap A: We can’t get rid of (Parra, Bush, Narveson), because we don’t have anything better and we’ll never find anything better.
Trap B: We have to get rid of (Parra, Bush, Narveson), even if the result is the same or only slightly better, as long as it’s different.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 25, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Depends on where you find your replacements.
If you do it via waivers, the minors and minor league free agency, yes.
If you sign a new starting pitcher to a three year deal every offseason, no.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 25, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
RIght
I’m not sure that re-signing Bush, and arb raises to Parra and Narveson will cost more than the equivalent on the open market. In fact, I’m almost positive it will cost substantially less than the equivalent on the open market.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, I was thinking
pretty much replace them with internal options, seeing as they’re so easily replaceable. Actually, the only one you could probably save money on is Bush… I’m pretty sure Parra & Narveson still come pretty cheaply.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Parra is arb eligible for the first time, I think
Narveson still pre-arb. And I doubt Bush would cost a whole lot.
But I see your point. Although I’m not sure that there’s anyone in the minors that wouldn’t be considered “rushed to the majors” if we brought them up for a starting gig in 2011.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know...
AAA:
Chase Wright: 136.1 IP, 4.95 ERA, 1.41 WHIP, 78 SO 50 BB
Chuck Lofgren: 122.1 IP, 5.22 ERA, 1.62 WHIP, 81 SO, 61 BB
Chris Waters: 104.1 IP, 4.40 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, 61 SO, 56 BB
Sam Narron: 91.1 IP, 4.24 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 47 SO, 21 BB
AA:
Amaury Rivas: 130.2 IP 3.37 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 105 SO, 45 BB
Michael Bowman: 121.1 5.64 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, 88 SO, 49 BB
Mark Rogers: 100.2 IP 3.93 ERA, 1.37 WHIP, 95 SO, 63 BB
Chris Cody: 99.2 IP 4.33 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 72 SO, 31 BB
And those are just the guys that the team wouldn’t have to worry as much about monitoring innings in 2011. I don’t know if anyone in AAA can be expected to put up anything better than Parra, Bush and Narveson have done (exception probably being Parra), and I don’t think it would be wise to move Amaury Rivas up to MLB in 2011; Mark Rogers’ injury history has to mean he needs to be on a strict pitch count/IP monitor.
I know folks like to mock/ridicule me for saying “2012 is the year they should be targeting as THE contention year”, but I think if you look at the pitching coming through the system, if you want to avoid the whole ‘Carlos Gomez Syndrome™’ of being ‘rushed to the majors’, you don’t push Rivas, Rogers, Cody up to MLB in 2011.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
The nice thing is Rogers restrictions have been removed the minors
But that wont change the workload increase he’ll be due if he’s called up to the majors, so monitoring will still be necessary, and I don’t wanna watch him work out his control issues here next season.
I think Rivas can be a mid-season callup in 2011, it certainly can’t hurt to let him tryout for a spot next Spring either. Doesn’t seem like he needs much more seasoning. He gets groundballs, his pitches work, and he doesn’t walk a ton.
I guess it’s also a question of how serious we are about competing next season, if he can be a quality pitcher, why not give him some experience?
"I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he said he didn't have that kind of dough." - Ueck
by GormanBraun28 on Aug 25, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh
Because
1) I’d like to see Rivas pitch against better competition in AAA first. His ERA rose .40 from A+ last year to AA. What do you suppose will happen to his 3.38 if he goes from AA to MLB?
2) What’s the rush? Is Amaury Rivas going to carry the Brewers to the World Series in 2011? I highly doubt it.
3) You want him pitching out of the bullpen in 2011 as a mid season call up? Or you just want him taking someone else’s spot? Pitching him in AAA in 2011 will allow the team to steadily increase his inning load so that he can be more durable in 2012.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Well and that kind of brings us back to point A
Are we actually contending next year? I don’t think the talent level at AAA is terribly superior to AA. He’s been fighting a nagging injury, and his defense at AA is one of the worst in the league.
A .40 raise in ERA really isn’t that bad, considering the increased talent level of hitters. I guess I don’t see the harm in him working toward it, maybe start him in AA, but if he’s talented enough, why keep sending out Narveson who really isn’t gonna get better than he is now.
That’s just the way I see it. In my eyes, you’re trying to make him more durable for 2012, which is something he can do in the majors.
"I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he said he didn't have that kind of dough." - Ueck
by GormanBraun28 on Aug 25, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Why waste a year of service time on that?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Problem with that...
players don’t “learn” at the MLB level… they’re expected to perform. In the minors, they can tinker around with new pitches without worrying about the results as much.
Rushing someone to the majors won’t help him learn any faster… it’ll more likely hurt his development. See Jeff Samardzija.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
There are at worst replacement level players in AAA
Both Wright and Lofgren are options. They both were highly ranked prospects that have good stuff. At least they should be able to put up similar numbers as Parra and Bush. Both have better stuff than Bush and are way cheaper options.
by Mr. McGehee on Aug 25, 2010 1:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
the Twins are in need of a LOOGY
Mahay is out for the year. However, I don’t think any of these guys are it…how hard would it be for Stetter to clear waivers?
I'm more thinking of
“would the White Sox have any need to claim this guy just to make sure the Twins can’t?”
No, they wouldn't.
I’m sure they’d be happy if Stetter went to the Twins.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Seems like a bit of long shot.
Mitch makes no money & the Twins are tied for 26th in waiver priority.
a situational lefty I've never heard of?
I’m rather surprised, I thought I was well-informed about all possible marginal relievers.
but sadly this takes away from any trade opportunities for players that we Brewers fans would rather not have around….
Whatever happened to Ron Flores?
He’s a lefty that must wonder where all the endless chances for LHP went.
Maybe he should play first base instead. That is, he should lie out there and we can step on him when we get a hit.
Nah, I just think those deals would handicap the franchise.
if we can get them on 1 or 2 year deals, sure, but that ain’t happening.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Agreed
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Holy cow, really?
I’m not sure what you mean by that, we seem to have too many pretty-good arms in the bullpen already
Yeah
but they’ve all been used a lot, and I find it extremely hard to believe that this level of success is going to be duplicated next year.
Although, I suppose you could argue with a better rotation next year, the bullpen won’t be used as much, which is a good point.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Odorizzi seems to be doing well
So I’m sure he’ll end up in our bullpen next year too. We have an endless supply of ruined starters it seems, what we need are rotation-ready arms.
Odorizzi isn't a "ruined" starter
I’d be shocked if he was on the team next year at all.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
image not complete on my end
unless that was part of the comedic effect, and I just don’t get it.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Cain's contract goes through 2012
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
is that the 3rd different injury he's had this season?
one he might have played through
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
how's that? cain can't be called a center fielder?
C Dick is a marginal case
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Tom H. will fight you
Word is going around Miller Park that the Brewers are determined to play Gomez and get something from him to prove the Hardy deal was not a bust. If true, they must not believe in the adage “two wrongs don’t make a right.”
At this point, Gomez appears to be [good] at only two things — running, and running his mouth.
by The Left Button on Aug 25, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Tom H
is a bitter and angry old man. I’ll fight him any day. I know he wants them to cut Gomez. I know he also knows that that’s not going to happen. The fact that he beats the horse to death every chance he gets makes me wonder if he doesn’t post here after all.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Personally
I find his rather high profile and potentially career threatening horsebeating quite charming.
by The Left Button on Aug 25, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
This time it was relevant, though
Gomez had just made the comments showing he’s still convinced he’s only a few hits away from being a great player. TH was justified in making another post about it, given the fresh comments and the situation with 3 center fielders on the roster.
Go Reds! (This signature applies only through the 2010 regular season)
So, Tom H (and others here)
can’t beat the horse about how terrible Gomez is, and how he doesn’t deserve to play, but you can beat the horse about how you want him to?
Makes sense.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh right
But you made it seem as if you were really sad that people who post here don’t like Gomez.
Thanks for at least allowing us to state the obvious.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
"Hi! I'm Doug Melvin..."
’You may remember me from such front office moves as Signing the 42 year old Trevor Hoffman to a 2 year extension for $15 million, and NOT trading Corey Hart before the 2010 trading deadline, when he was having an all time best season because we thought we were still a competitive team…."
‘Today, I’m here to talk to you about Carlos Gomez, and why no matter how poorly he does, we’re going to trot him out there everyday regardless of the consequences so you will become numb to the fact that I traded JJ Hardy away one year too late"
If you're gonna pick on his mistakes
why not use ones that actually happened?
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
i think you can make the assumption that it's not exercised though.
you know, unless you’re trying to get us to jump off a cliff into the ocean and we can’t swim.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
One year too late?
If they would’ve traded Hardy a year earlier, who would’ve played SS? Escobar who had 0 experience at Triple-A?
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
gotcha
defensively, not the whole player as a package. fair enough.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure
But I’m starting to think some folks at this site want the Brewers to turn into the Mariners. Who cares if he can play somewhat better defense than another guy (who is supposed to be able to play plus defense) who’s going to actually be productive at the plate, too?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I know it can be hard to spot the difference between good and great defensively with the naked eye
But Cain doesn’t strike me as being MUCH worse than Gomez. If Gomez is +10, I’d guesstimate Cain at +5.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 25, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Out of curiosity where do you see them offensively?
(I dont have an answer here)
by BrewCrewBrian on Aug 25, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Depends on how much you expect Cain to regress, I guess.
Cain’s MLE in Huntsville this season was .269/.335/.352, in 280 PAs.
In Nashville, it was .259/.321/.353, in 100 PAs.
In the majors, he’s hitting .314/.368/.431, in 57 PAs.
If you weight those for sample size and average it out you get .273/.336/.363, or a roughly .700 OPS.
Gomez’s career line is .242/.291/.346, good for a .637 OPS.
I don’t know what that projects to in runs over a full season, but I’d guess it’s more than ten.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 25, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
And, let's be honest
It appears as if Gomez is currently fulfilling his offensive potential, while Cain may still have some realizing to do on both sides of the ball.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Gomez is still only 24 years old
Same age as a lot of prospects coming up. I wouldnt say he’s reached his potential offensively yet.
Here’s an interesting though: Baseball America ranks the top needed tools for each position in its annual Prospect Handbook. And for CF it goes 1) Defense, 2) Speed, 3) Hit for Average, 4) Arm, 5) Hit for Power (I may have 4 and 5 inverted, dont have the book at my desk at work). But if you take those tools, and give each a corresponding, decresing value on a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 basis; and then look at numbers over the past 3 seasons. The best CF in baseball would be Michael Bourn.
WAR would say that its Josh Hamilton. Its just the argument over whether or not you want a prototypical CF vs one where you can just get offensive production from, regardless of how they do defensively.
I agree with the original post, Gomez is the best CF in the team, and if youre an mlb front office person or scout, you’re going to take a guy like Gomez over a guy like Cain because of the way he plays defense. In the end, the players, at their peaks are probably the same exact productively, but with different skill sets. Do you win more games with a CF who plays great defense, or one that is a big run producer?
I suppose it depends on the level of man-crush you have on Gomez
Allowing for him to improve, in spite of 2 full seasons of offensive data that say otherwise because of his age.
How old is Cain, again?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Same age
How about man crush on Josh Hamilton? Amazing that the entire league could have had him for something like $100,000
If you're asking whether I'd take Hamilton over Gomez
then yes.
Yes, I prefer a guy who is NOT a liability at the plate. Run saving is nice, in theory. This year’s Brewers were supposed to be better defensively than last year, with the addition of Gomez and Escobar. That is simply not the case.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm not sure i saw Gomez and Escobar as tremendous upgrades over Cam and Hardy
http://www.mlbsoup.com
They are much cheaper though
and I think long term Escobar will be better than Hardy
I didn't
but that’s how they were billed
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
not really.
Keeping Cameron wasn’t really an option, so Gomez wasn’t an upgrade over Cameron, so much as a good defender brought in to fill a hole.
I never saw it billed as an upgrade over last year
http://www.mlbsoup.com
Cameron to Gomez was billed as a wash, or slight upgrade
Hardy to Escobar was billed as a huge upgrade.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
You think Escobar has been a defensive upgrade over Hardy?
I guess we’re just on opposite ends of the earth, then.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think he has.
He’s muffed a few plays that a guy like Hardy made more routinely, but his range and potential are much larger. There’s things Esky’s already done that Hardy couldn’t do in his lifetime.
Hardy is one of the best defenders in baseball
Escobar is not.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions
By the way, that's backed up by 3 years of compiled UZR data
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
But
we don’t have data on Escobar yet… do we? I thought that that stat only worked with 3 ish years of data… maybe that was something else.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
it might be unreliable
but the data compiled thusfar will form about 1/3 of the final weight, so I think you can indeed look at the numbers generated.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 26, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
potential
is not something that was reflected in the 2010 season, so is irrelevant to this discussion.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 26, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Who was billing it as a huge upgrade?
I was looking forward to seeing flashier plays, but Hardy’s always been billed as a solid defender, so any billing of Escobar as an upgrade was only seen as a slight upgrade.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
The problem here
Is that’s a qualitative way of looking at it, but you really need a quantitative way of looking at it. It’s not a question of whether you prefer a good defensive CF or a good offensive CF, but of HOW MUCH better the defense is, and HOW MUCH better the offense is. If the offense is good enough to outweigh the defense, go with it, and vice versa. As Jordan said below, a run is a run is a run.
Now, that said, IIRC, there are times when the marginal value of a run saved actually can be greater than the marginal value of a run earned, and vice versa; I don’t remember the details, but there was a BtB post on it at least once. However, this isn’t something that applies generally, and certainly not something that applies on a positional basis; it’s more something that ends up true in certain run environments. My memory of this is pretty fuzzy, though, so I may be getting the details wrong.
Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?
Project?
I guess I’m not a scout, but he’s been right around average in the minors in CF. What I’ve personally seen in him vs. Gomez by watching games is that both sometimes take bad routes, and that Cain’s arm is better and more accurate than Gomez’s.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait
By “technically” do you mean “if you only look at half of the game”?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Or did you mean "defensively, at least throughout his past, and not taking this year into account"?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Defensively, including this year.
and technically, if he’s only talking about his skill as a center fielder, I think he’s better. Probably not a better baseball player, but if I needed someone to play center and wasn’t gonna worry about offense, I’d pick Gomez in a heartbeat.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Right
But if I needed to get to the grocery store and wasn’t worried about how long it’ll take, I’d ride the dog.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 25, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
Have you watched him this year?
I question routes and decision making with the ball. That’s probably why UZR doesn’t like him this year either.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm used to watching Braun & Hart play in the outfield
Gomez’s routes are damn near perfect, relatively speaking.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
That's true
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
And they most of the time are
I tend to agree with you that looking at defense alone, Gomez is certainly the best CF we have. That being said, I think when you take everything into account, I like Cain from here on out.
Let’s take a look at two teams with similar philosophies: the Red Sox and the Mariners. Obviously different payrolls, but both decided “we’re gonna stockpile our teams with good defensive players”. M’s went with some of the best defenders to back some very good pitchers, Red Sox went with good defenders who can also bring decent or good offense.
The results are obvious: Red Sox would be leading any division but their own, M’s are out of it. While it is certainly important to prioritize defense (which the Brewers can use), you can’t win games without offense, and personally, I’ll take a guy who can bring some offense to go with just above average defense to a guy who has no clue at the plate and plays great defense.
"I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he said he didn't have that kind of dough." - Ueck
by GormanBraun28 on Aug 25, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
oh, the old "range" issue
Can get to everything! —the problem is that he was positioned incorrectly in the first place.
(Everyone predicted that Nyjer Morgan would have issues with this later in his career, and it looks like it’s come to pass.)
Cody Scarpetta's only 22?
In every picture I’ve seen of him, he looks about 35. So, the org has at least 3 pitching prospects who look a whole lot older than they are (Braddock and McClendon are the other two I know of.) What’s the deal? (Any and all outlandish explanations accepted.)
advanced aging occurs
when you’ve been force fed one too many of Rick Peterson’s webinars.
by alchemyindex on Aug 25, 2010 10:44 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
The stress of being a high profile pitcher in the brewers org
causes you to age at a much faster rate. All that pressure to break the mold and do well can do crazy things to a guy. I mean have you seen Yovannis face?
he still looks older than 22 to me
but that’s actually a pretty good picture, and much better than the others I’ve seen posted (not that I’ve actually looked much, I don’t have a need for pictures of prospects when they aren’t doing things like, um, pitching, and you know what Pitch Face looks like)
Wow, he looks younger than 22 to me
Actually, I would have put him at about 19 if I just randomly saw this picture.
Then again, when you get older, they all look younger.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
that's where I noticed it
I should have realized that nobody, repeat, nobody looks good when they’re throwing a baseball.
Ha
He looks about 35 in that picture.
Is that a fuzzstache?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
FAH Q?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Tonight:
Weeks 4
Hart 9
Braun 7
Fielder 3
McGehee 5
Cain 8
Escobar 6
Kottaras 2
Wolf 1
Still no adaptation of my “Don’t let Braun & Hart be in the lineup together ever” idea.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
how many games has C dick been around
and how many has he played?
I suppose if the platoon worked out differently, he’d be in tonight in CF.
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
SRSLY
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
You have to wonder how he feels about that line up
He certainly seems to be under the impression that the starting job is his to lose. Maybe he’ll work on his hitting in the offseason to give himself a chance to see play time next year.
Go Reds! (This signature applies only through the 2010 regular season)
I think it's more like...
starting job is was his to lose but he lost it
Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.
Well
@BrewerNation: Trevor Hoffman claimed by White Sox. Want to work out a trade for him. Villanueva cleared waivers. White Sox perhaps interested in him too.
SRS BSNS
Interesting that we don't just give Hoffman to them?
Though I guess salary relief isn’t that significant this time of year.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
wonder what the math is on that
the relative value of avoiding his contract vs. the marginal ticket sales, concessions, and other benefits to him getting save 600 when the brewers would otherwise not be drawing fewer fans.
by Capt Science on Aug 25, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
nevermind the double negative
“…when the brewers would otherwise not be drawing fewer fans.”
by Capt Science on Aug 25, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I keep saying
If we throw in the banner, we might get more for him.
Go Reds! (This signature applies only through the 2010 regular season)
I like Hoffman and think he's been incredibly classy this season
But does anyone actually care about #600? He’s not breaking any records – he already has the saves record – he’s just reaching some slightly arbitrary number. Given that he’s only been on the Brewers two years, that he’s not been the closer for most of the season, and that he’s probably fallen out of favor with a lot of normal Brewers fans, I don’t see it being a big attendance draw.
I think he does bring a lot of intangible value through his veteran presence in the bullpen, etc. though. No reason to give him up for nothing.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
Maybe the people who start the wave are the ones who want #600
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, I think you're right.
Some people go to the park like they’re attending a church service, and some people go to the park because they think you should play and have fun in a park. Heathens.
You must have missed Kyle and my exchange re: the wave in yesterday's game thread.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
yes
care to recap?
I like the wave. so suck it:P
by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 26, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I know 1 person who cares about 600:
Trevor. My guess is if he hit 600 and THEN hit a wall and couldn’t close, he’d have retired.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
I'm guessing that if he didn't have a buyout at the end of the year, he would have retired.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
I disagree
it’s not a lot of money (relatively speaking), what would he care?
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
$500,000 for doing nothing..
Don’t forget the money he’d be leaving on the table this year, had he retired mid-year. I suppose that would have been a much bigger persuasion.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
I'm not sure how his no-trade clause plays a role
Releasing him on waivers to another team is essentially the same thing. I would assume the same no-trade clause applies. If not, then no-trade clauses are kind of dumb.
Go Reds! (This signature applies only through the 2010 regular season)
I'm almost positive that it does
Because Johnny Damon was able to nix being moved back to the Red Sox on waivers
Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?
Great.
Now I’m just going to be pissed off if he isn’t traded. There is absolutely no reason for the Brewers to keep him in this situation.
Both
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe the White Sox aren't on his trade list
Hoffman has a limited no-trade clause in his contract that blocks the Brewers from trading him to all but five of the other Major League teams without his consent. Hoffman talked about the existence of that clause Wednesday morning, but said he didn’t know any of the details.
Maybe he should play first base instead. That is, he should lie out there and we can step on him when we get a hit.
Good point.
I think he might be willing to potentially waive it for the chance to be traded to a contender, especially one that he wouldn’t have to move across the country to join.
I think that's the biggest point
He doesn’t really have to uproot his family for a Milwaukee/Chicago move. Then again, he might not want to play for a crazy a$$hole and he wouldn’t be getting any more money out of the deal.
I don’t think any of us would be particularly surprised to see him refuse a trade to the White Sox.
Go Reds! (This signature applies only through the 2010 regular season)
He doesn't know the details?
Uh Huh.
The teams:
Giants, Angels, A’s, Dodgers, Yankees.*
*—may or may not be true
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
That last note...
Does it apply to just the Yankees or all five?
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
All
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 26, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Is there a @notdougmelvin tweet
That says “rejected White Sox waiver claim for Trevor Hoffman because they wouldnt swap for major league ready starting pitcher”
by backtocali on Aug 25, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nah
It would read “rejected Kenny’s claim for Hoff because he wasn’t coming back with Viciedo or Beckham. Hoff = HOF”
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 25, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Request made to management
to have the ability to type in multitudes of smiley faces
so that I could put the eye rolling one in here….
Hmm... that's interesting
So Manny and Yo have about the same number of innings pitched. Yo is at 462.2, Manny is at 440.2. They’ve been playing for the same team for the same timeframe, but the hitters they’ve ended up facing are significantly different.
Gallardo has faced 40 teams with a losing record, and 38 with a winning record.
Parra has faced 42 teams with a losing record and 52 with a winning record.
Gallardo has faced Carlos Lee more than any other hitter.
Parra has faced Albert Pujols more than any other hitter.
Gallardo has pitched against the Pirates 11 times, Houston 9, and the Reds 7.
Parra has pitched against the Cardinals 14 times, Houston 9, and appeared in 9 inter-league games.
Interesting for sure
And I understand you didnt actually draw any conclusions from this, merely just stated it.
But the fact that Parra has been used out of the pen is a big factor is some of those results.
And maybe that's the answer, because I didn't look only at starts
Better teams will chase your starter more often and require more relief appearances from your pen.
"Parra has faced Albert Pujols more than any other hitter"
New explanation for his incredibly high BABIP: divine intervention.
Ryan Braun: He loves it.
by SRB on Aug 25, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Parra to the 'pen:
@AdamMcCalvy: Manny Parra bounced to #Brewers bullpen. Chris Capuano to start Saturday.
SRS BSNS
Thank Albert!
Applying Simpsons and Star Wars quotes to Brewers discussions since 2009.
by Yar Nivek on Aug 25, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Heh...
His last start went 5 innings, but 4 is probably more likely. Not really that much worse than the 5 Manny would’ve put up.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Nope, not saying it'll be worse than Manny
but also not saying it’ll be any good.
http://www.twitter.com/mykenk
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Brew Crew Ball
Related FanShots on Brew Crew Ball
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
NL Central Standings
| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Chicago
|
0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
|
Cincinnati
|
0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
|
Houston
|
0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
|
Milwaukee
|
0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
|
St. Louis
|
0 | 0 | .000 | 0 | Lost 0 |
(updated 2.16.2012 at 7:03 AM CST)
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
