Shortstop X ..Two Other Possibilities
by Rob Deer For President on Jan 18, 2011 11:06 PM CST
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PrintJohn Axford's emergence out of the hyperbolic "nowhere" last year has already reached legendary status. The Yankees took notice of the former Notre Dame prospect while pitching in an Ontario Independent League. They signed and then released him due to control issues. So, Axford returned home, tended bar and continued pitching at a nearby gym or so the story goes. Brewers scout Jay Lapp followed a hunch and organized a workout in Missaussaga, Ontario. That was in 2008.
Will the Axford gold mine lead to more Brewer scouts digging through Independent dirt in search of the team's most pressing needs? As Brewer fans pick through scraps for a shortstop solution, Melvin may be stirring up plans D and E way under the radar.
The jump from the anonymous, bumpy bus ride to a spot on a major league roster is nothing new. The stories are often short lived, but nonetheless heart warming. Last year on June 12, Daniel Nava became only the fourth major leaguer to hit a grand slam in his first ever at bat. Nova earned MVP honors in 2007 as a member of the Chico Outlaws in the Golden Independent League. If you missed his moment, here it is again.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100612&content_id=11104724&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
What if Brewer scouts located a solid fielding shortstop with a knack for taking a walk? It would cost next to nothing to invite him to spring training and the message would be loud and clear. Shortstop is still up for grabs.
The following comes from Bob Wirz's Independent Baseball Insider:
Non-Roster Invitations Rolling In
With the holidays in the rear view mirror, the pace of major league teams issuing spring training invitations has started picking up. We know of 10 former Independent players with opportunities to shine in front of major league brass already, and the number could triple. This is what we know at the moment, including their previous Indy teams and the leagues they were in at the time:
PITCHERS (7): Gabe DeHoyos, Oakland (Schaumburg, IL, Northern League); Mark DiFelice, Milwaukee (Somerset, NJ, and Camden, NJ, Atlantic League); Mike O’Connor, New York-NL (Southern Maryland, Waldorf, Atlantic); Mark Prior, New York-AL (Orange County, Fullerton, CA, Golden League); R. J. Swindle, Tampa Bay (Schaumburg and Newark, NJ, Atlantic); Raul Valdes, St. Louis (New Jersey, Little Falls, and Nashua, NH, Can-Am League); Randy Williams, Boston (Edinburg, TX, Central League).
CATCHER (1): Cody Clark, Kansas City (San Diego, CA, Golden).
FIRST BASEMEN (2): *Tagg Bozied, Philadelphia (Sioux Falls, SD, Northern League); Wily Mo Pena, Arizona (Bridgeport, CT, Atlantic).
*Played first professional game in an Independent league
A shuffling of the infield deck is another possibility and somewhat of a Milwaukee Brewers tradition. Paul Molitor was drafted in the first round as a shortstop. Blocked by Robin Yount he moved over to second...and then in 1982 out to center field and shortly thereafter, third base. Yount followed a few years later with his switch to centerfield. And then there's Bill Hall, the Brewers all time vagabond. And most recently, Ryan Braun.
Casey McGehee started 20 games at second base for the Brewers in 2009. If he took over second and the curtains opened for Mat Gamel at third, could Rickie Weeks play SS? Is it even possible to project how much his +2 UZR at second could weaken with a move to the other side of the bag? Would it be worse then Betancourt's -10?
It would be a huge risk at an extremely challenging position and something Weeks could very well veto with his new status. Nonetheless, the thought of Gamel's left handed promise in the every game lineup and Betancourt removed trumps the solace of knowing he played SS in the final 71 games of Greinke's Cy Young season.
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You forgot
to factor in that Mcgehee is a far worse 2nd baseman than Weeks and Gamel is a far worse 3rd baseman than Mcgehee. You would probably be giving up 50 runs extra with those two in the everyday lineup at those positions. Then Weeks at short would be nothing short of catastrophic. The infield “defense” would quite possibly be the worst in the history of major league baseball since gloves were invented. Not to mention, Gamel’s offense is no certainty.
Yeah, I think this would end up being far worse defensively than keeping Yuni at short.
Though, it would be interesting to see Weeks play SS. He’s certainly athletic enough and he has the work ethic as evidenced by his vastly improved 2B defense. I think he could potentially be a better defensive SS than Betancourt. But the other two players defense would be terrible, like you said.
Back to the drawing boards
Counsell once said that defense is not something that can be taught. You either have it or you don’t. If this is true, why draft and develop players who will become a liability on defense and as a result not be put in the lineup (especially in the National League)?
What will the Brewers ultimately do with Gamel?
Can Hart move to center field? Does Gamel have the arm for right field?
If Fielder leaves, Gamel would most likely play first, but let’s assume Fielder stays. How can the Brewers showcase Gamel- raise his value in order to trade him? Much like Lorenzo Cain last year.
by Rob Deer For President on Jan 19, 2011 6:00 AM CST up reply actions
I think that Rickie Weeks is proof that defense can be taught.
In my opinion, Gamel should be given every opportunity to be the Brewers starting 1B in 2012 and beyond. Corey Hart should not ever sniff center field because that would be a disaster. Gamel could probably play right field (the Brewers had him working there some last season), but with Hart signing an extension, there’s no place in the OF for Gamel. If Fielder somehow stays, just hope that someone isn’t under-valuing him or hope he has a big year in the minors or on the bench.
by Noah Jarosh on Jan 19, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
"far worse 3rd baseman than Mcgehee."
I disagree with this statement. Gamel has range, McGehee does not.
Other than that, yes, I agree with you. We would probably be losing runs at SS and 2B, but gaining a significant return on batting runs. I think, at best, this would be a +5 run move, and at worst, a -20-25 run move. I don’t think it’s worth the risk.
McGehee was close to average (-4.2 runs UZR)
He was +.1 runs if you want to use TZ.
I don’t know how one can argue that Gamel is close to an average defensive 3B.
Get a ife broseph
I think the Weeks comparison is good.
Gamel can field unlike Braun. Gamel just has throwing problems. I don’t think the Brewers see him as a 3B though.
I find it odd that the one game Fielder missed had Gamel at 3B and Mcehee at 1B.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
I wouldn't find that odd
3B is a tougher position to physically play than 1B, McGehee had played 52 games in a row at 3B before Prince missed the game. Good chance to get Casey a little easier game.
In Gamel’s 27 starts at 3B, he’s been pulled late for a defensive purposes 11 times, that tells me a bit more about how the team views his defense.
His minor league fielding percentage was flat from 2009 to 2010, his range factor per game was slightly worse from 2009.
I like your optimism and hope he finally starts to improve, I just haven’t seen anything to suggest he will.
Rickie is probably best case (though hard to compare college players with those who had been around Brewer coaching since they were 18), but for every Rickie Weeks there are a ton of guys who were never able to learn the position.
Get a ife broseph
Plus
Gamel wasn’t exactly thrilled about playing 1B. In addition, despite his struggles playing 3B, he still had much more experience playing 3B compared to 1B.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
He just said that playing 1B was harder than the outfield.
The rest was just TH conjecture. Would we really expect him to be happy if he is moved off of 3B?
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
My post was more towards the fact that he played 3B instead of 1B for that one game.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
I am not a fan of range factor to be honest.
It really doesn’t tell us anything about range. In theory it should. In reality it just measures how often a ball was hit to a guy.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
OK
Then why, besides “Rickie Weeks did it” do you think that Gamel can be an average defensive 3B?
Get a ife broseph
I'll add
Weeks was close to average (-3.3 runs in UZR) by age 25.
At age 25, Gamel had a .920 fielding percentage and started getting time at 1B and corner OF positions in AAA.
I used to be in the “give Gamel a chance at 3B” camp, but at some point when he can’t make a throw to 1B and he’s a non-factor in trades because no other team thinks he can play 3B, you have to stop making excuses for him.
Get a ife broseph
We have all our corner positions filled for the forseeable future.
It was a good move to have Gamel learn all the corner spots to cover ourselves in case of injury.
Who is making excuses? He has the tools and seems to be able to field well. Maybe he just needs to work on his defense with somebody different. Money obviously isn’t getting through. Maybe the next guy won’t get to him either. Money has even stated his problem is fixable. I think it may just be a case of getting a different perspective.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Isn't blaming his minor coach making an excuse?
Gamel has struggled in the minors with other coaches. He didn’t improve during his time in the majors with Willie Randolph. He works with a variety of coaches in spring training and (I would hope) works with different coaches during the offseason.
I just wish the Brewers would end the 3B experiment, make him a backup OF/1B for the MLB team and see if he can hit at the MLB level.
Get a ife broseph
he didn't blame them from what I recall
they blamed him.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jan 20, 2011 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
I think Money was the only coach that made any statements with regards to Gamel's defense
and I’ve never heard or read anything from Gamel explaining why he’s not very good defensively.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
This type of position switch
tends to work better in RBI Baseball 3 and Ken Griffey Jr. Presents Major League Baseball. I remember arguing about whether playing Mike Piazza at Shortstop ruined the spirit of the game.
I don’t know how all’y’all young whippersnappers play your newfangled video games, but back in the early ’90s, defense was for suckers.
Steve
http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com
Players who changed positions
What switch sticks out as most surprising in terms of success over the years?
Other than Piazza at shortstop in RBI Baseball 3?
IN most cases, it is not really a switch. It is returning to an old position.
It’s amazing how few players are asked to switch…maybe more a result of free agency and players new rights than anything to do with their ability to handle the change.
by Rob Deer For President on Jan 19, 2011 8:28 AM CST up reply actions
A few others...
Carlos Marmol from C to P in the minors
As far as changes once they reached the majors:
Biggio – C to 2B
Werth – C to OF
Ron Gant – 2B to OF
Tartabull – 2B – OF
Nilsson – C-OF-1B-back to C
Bill Hall – SS – OF…wait maybe not so much on that one.
by Infield Fly Rule on Jan 19, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Ankiel P->OF
not that that was a tremendous success
I wasn’t aware werth was a catcher
by PagsBrewCrew on Jan 19, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Notice which way those moves were on the defensive spectrum.
Other than Nilsson back to catcher they all move left. In the lead all the proposed moves go right.
DH—>1B—>LF—>RF—>3B—>CF—>2B—>SS—>C
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
That was a switch in the minors
Hunter Morris possibly to 3B.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
I still think it's impressive
for someone to be squatting for years and then make it at a position that they have to be quick at.
by PagsBrewCrew on Jan 19, 2011 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
Then again....
after squatting for years, as you say, what a feeling it must be to stand straigh up and walk again. Charlie Moore’s flexibility between right field and behind the plate seems kind of rare…
What about players who play many positions over the course of a season?
Counsell,….
by Rob Deer For President on Jan 19, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
Unlike the others that have been mentioned...
His move was due an injury.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Jesus Sanchez
Used to be a catcher with the Yankees and then traded to Phillies and became a pitcher. The Brewers signed him to a minor league deal a few weeks ago.
It seems like shortstops and catchers make the best pitchers…before their arms get tired.
by Rob Deer For President on Jan 19, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
Poo-Holes
SS → 3B → 1B
"The Milwaukee Brewers' line score is starting to resemble an international phone number" - Pittsburgh Pirates Radio during 20-0 shutout - 4-22-10
Sheffield
Is another good former Brewer example
SS – 3B – OF
by Infield Fly Rule on Jan 19, 2011 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
and on the third position switch
he ascended into Heaven.
Celebrating the addition of Greinke and mourning the loss of my man crush Cain
by molitorfan on Jan 21, 2011 10:26 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Molitor
He played CF part of the time in ’81… he played 3B full-time in ’82.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
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