Sunday's Tainted Sample
by Kyle Lobner on Dec 11, 2011 10:26 AM CST
in Milwaukee Brewers News
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PrintOpening with a joke seems really inappropriate on a day like this, so let's just skip ahead to the news.
As you've likely heard by now, ESPN's Outside The Lines and others are reporting that Ryan Braun failed a test for performance enhancing drugs in October and faces a 50 game suspension to open the 2012 season (FanShot). Mark Attanasio has issued a statement supporting the league's drug policy, but also Braun.
Braun is currently appealing the suspension via arbitration and it's worth noting that the volume of things we don't actually know at this point is significant. Braun and representatives are claiming that a second test came back negative, although there is some question about what exactly that reflects. Will Carroll of Sports Illustrated has the most thorough look I've seen at the process that led us to this point and the questions that remain. Jon Heyman says the appeal could take weeks and we probably won't hear much from either side while it's ongoing.
Meanwhile, I would guess the most frustrating part of this for Braun is the inability to publicly defend himself. Braun says he's eager to tell his side of the story but can't comment publicly while the appeal process is still ongoing.
Here's some reaction from around the web:
- High Heat Stats says Braun is "MLB's greatest fallen hero."
- Babes Love Baseball is taking back the positive things they've said about Braun recently.
- Matthew Pouliot of Hardball Talk notes that this is a PR disaster for MLB.
- Jon Heyman called it "a very sad day for baseball."
- Ken Rosenthal says that even if Braun isn't guilty, baseball will never be completely clean.
- There are people out there pointing out that no one has ever successfully appealed an MLB drug suspension, but Bob Nightengale of USA Today notes that these tests are supposed to be confidential so there's no way to actually know that.
- Jason Brannon of Baseball Nation has a look at what happens when a false positive test is more likely than an actual positive.
- Jaymes Langrehr of The Brewers Bar appears to have struggled to write about this as much last night as I did today.
- Richard Justice of MLB.com says Braun deserves the benefit of the doubt.
- Braun's offseason neighbor, longtime NBA player Reggie Miller, says Braun told him the test was "bogus" and says you "can only believe a man for his word" and "truth will always come out."
- Peter Gammons seems to be playing the "innocent until proven guilty" card too.
- David Pinto wonders what would have motivated Braun to use PEDs.
- The BBWAA does not plan to strip Braun of the 2011 NL MVP.
- morineko noted that Logan Schafer's chances of making the opening day roster just jumped significantly.
- Try as I might, I can't imagine a more positive outlook on this than Toby Harrmann's.
I guess at the end of the day my opinions largely mirror this two part tweet from Howie Magner:
In the end, if the positive test holds, has to rank among the most disappointing Wisconsin-centric sports stories, ever.
And if, in the end, Braun is exonerated, somebody should get sued for enough money to give Fielder a 20-year contract. #Brewers
We don't know what's going to come of this. At the moment we don't know what's true and not true. If the accusations at hand are correct then Braun and the Brewers have a lot of explaining to do and a demolished reputation that's going to take a long time to rebuild. Braun's reputation, however, has already been soiled simply by the accusation. Even if it turns out that the test was simply a false positive, these reports (and the endless amount of speculation out there despite everything we don't know) are going to haunt Braun for the rest of his life.
That brings me to another point: Yesterday's reporting removed nearly every shred of anonymity and confidentiality from a process that is anonymous and confidential for very good reason. Tom Haudricourt talked to a source yesterday that is confident the suspension will be overturned and Braun will be vindicated. Braun deserved an opportunity to be cleared of charges without being punished in the court of public opinion. He's no longer going to get one.
Most of it seems small and insignificant at this point, but as long as I'm here I guess I might as well tell you about some of the other stuff going on this weekend.
The Brewers and Aramis Ramirez are taking a weekend break from their negotiations regarding a possible contract. The two sides are expected to talk again early next week, although the Brewers might be a little distracted now.
Mike Rivera is back in the organization on a minor league deal (FanShot). He played in one major league game last season but spent most of the year backing up Martin Maldonado in AAA, and unless something changes in the coming weeks that's probably what he'll be doing again in 2012.
Here are today's Prince Fielder notes:
- Tom Haudricourt passed along a report saying the Rangers are interested in either Prince Fielder or Casey McGehee to play first base next season. No offense to McGehee, but that's a weird pairing. It's like saying you're hungry and are interested in either a steak or a hot dog.
- Lookout Landing has a look at Fielder's baserunning and defense.
In the minors:
- Baseball America is reporting the Brewers have signed pitcher Brian Baker to a minor league deal. He's spent the last seven years pitching in the Rays organization (including 2010 and 2011 in AAA) but posted a 6.62 ERA in 25 outings in 2011.
- Mike Rivera celebrated his new contract with the Brewers by hitting a two run hoer in Aguilas' 3-1 win over Gigantes last night. You can read about that and more in today's Winter League Notes.
- Matthew Stucko of MiLB.com has an interview with Scooter Gennett.
Around baseball:
Cardinals: Signed shortstop Rafael Furcal to a two year, $14 million deal.
Cubs: Claimed infielder Jeff Bianchi off waivers from the Royals.
Diamondbacks: Acquired pitchers Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow from the Athletics for pitchers Jarrod Parker and Ryan Cook and outfielder Collin Cowgill and signed pitcher/outfielder Jason Lane to a minor league deal.
Mariners: Signed pitchers Guillermo Quiroz and Scott Patterson to minor league deals.
Marlins: Designated pitcher Clay Hensley for assignment.
Pirates: Designated pitcher Jeremy Hefner for assignment.
Rangers: Signed infielder Alberto Gonzalez to a minor league deal.
Rays: Signed pitcher Matt Moore to a five year, $14 million deal to buy out his first two arbitration seasons.
Reds: Signed pitchers Sean Gallagher and Luis Atilano to minor league deals.
Tigers: Acquired pitcher Ryan Perry from the Nationals for pitcher Collin Balester.
Jason Lane has been an outfielder for all of his 13 professional seasons (including six as an Astro) but the Diamondbacks apparently intend to move him to the mound in 2012. I remember Lane having a strong arm, so it'll be an interesting experiment for the 35 year old.
Today in baseball economics: After signing Albert Pujols, the Angels made the headlines again this week when it was reported that they've signed a new TV contract worth $150 million annually over the next 20 years. For comparison purposes, the Twins' current TV deal is worth $12 million over eight years. The Brewers' deal is probably similar.
Drink up.
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If the allegations are false
The person, or people, who leaked the misinformation should go to hell. Whether Braun is innocent or not, his reputation will never be the same.
Go ahead, make my day.
by ilikeburritos on Dec 11, 2011 10:32 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
My conspiratorial theory
Boras found out, and leaked it to get the Brewers to bid more for Fielder.
Now excuse me, I need to adjust my tinfoil hat.
REWIND YOURSELF!
by drezdn on Dec 11, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for taking the time to give a thorough look at this, Kyle.
I still can’t talk about it in depth without wanting to break down crying. What this could mean for the career of Braun, the next decade or more for the Brewers. I just don’t see a happy ending, whether he is exonerated or not.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
Cards fan here, not to gloat
But to remind the BCB posters who’ve been so quick to tar Pujols with the PED brush that this is serious stuff. It’s easy to be flippant about it when it’s not your guy. I have no reason to doubt Braun and hope this is all the misunderstanding he says it is. But when you so casually level that accusation at other players based on no evidence at all, you have no credibility crying “unfair” when your guy actually flunks a test.
Is it ok to speculate that Pujols is actually Benjamin Button
I want to make sure I comment the “right way.”
REWIND YOURSELF!
To my knowledge he's never denied it.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Dec 11, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, you're not here to gloat.
You’re here to be a preachy a-hole.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Better a preachy a-hole
than the kind of a-holes who accuse other players of juicing based on no evidence. During the LCS, you guys were making POOHOLES ROIDS ROFL cracks every few pitches. But that was all just good fun, right?
Even if Braun is cleared (as I hope he is, he seems like a decent enough guy), you should expect the wider baseball community to treat him with the same respect you’d have given Pujols if he failed a test and was later cleared. I think we all know what that would be.
by southsidered on Dec 11, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Rather than trolling us
You should head over to Viva El Birdos. They’re good people, and they’re not likely to get as pissed off at your condescension as we will.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
I'm about to be 31
ALL of my friends that look like Albert(swole, big dome, beyond receding hairline) have been linked to steroid use. If I’m lyin’, I’m flyin’.
I got goons.
by Dikembe Meiztombo on Dec 11, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, because that crap never, ever happens on VEB.
God, Cardinals fans are the biggest bunch of hypocrites I’ve ever seen in my life.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 12, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
Not cool.
A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.
by TwoShoesMcGooze on Dec 11, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
I think that an acronym works best here
its: “STFU”.
Does that cover it?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Just got done reading through the fanshot comments
The whole thing seems to progress slowly but steadily from “OMG fuck Braun!” to “I hope this isn’t true!” to “gee, looks like maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt”. And yet SRB is burned at the stake for arriving at that final conclusion from the beginning. Maybe he (SRB) got a little out of hand in defending his position but it was a little shocking to see Brewer fans jumping immediately to wanting to cut him and void his contract and such, especially at a venue where so much intelligent conversation has taken place in the past.
It is what it is.
by coolig on Dec 11, 2011 10:57 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
I think when the news first broke, all most of us knew was that he had tested positive and had none of the details.
Now that we have more details, asome of us are willing to let it play out.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
I realize that not all the details were known right away, and we still don't know all the details,
but isn’t that all the more reason to give benefit of the doubt instead of immediately grabbing the torch and pitchfork?
It is what it is.
by coolig on Dec 11, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Most of the "Fuck Braun" comments
came with the “If this is true, then…” before it.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
And SRB's argument was not "let's withhold judgment"
for the most part it was that we should blindly support Braun because everyone does PEDs, rules against PEDs are stupid, and anyone who would abandon support of their team’s franchise player based on a PED issue is stupid.
those are two very different arguments.
I was def anti-Braun when the story dropped, and am now closer to the fence, but want to see his full defense before I jump all the way into his camp. The circumstances/denials related to every other PED case that’s gone public has pushed me to the cynical side for the time being.
by MooseHaas on Dec 11, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
ESPN really jumped the gun with how it was presesnted
Almost every lead was something like “Braun tests positive for PEDs, faces 50 game suspension”. If you didn’t know any better you’d have thought it came straight from MLB, not that an appeal was ongoing.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
I agree that thread wasn't all that productive pretty much all the way around.
But I don’t regard “go root for another team” and “rules are stupid” to be any more useful than “f*** Braun”.
Probably best to just let that thread, and conversations about that thread, die.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Ahh it's a classic.
Everybody getting drunk and stuff. Sad, but classic.
A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.
by TwoShoesMcGooze on Dec 11, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
I'm getting drunk again!
I got goons.
by Dikembe Meiztombo on Dec 11, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
If someone is not going to root for Ryan Braun they’re going to have a hard time being a Brewers fan for the next 10+ years. So yes, I think they had better find a new team to root for.
If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!
And I still think this kind of comment is wildly unproductive.
And every bit as self-obsessed, base instinct driven as “fuck braun” is. Too bad you haven’t figured that out, as most of the “fuck braun” crowd appears to have done.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 12, 2011 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
From Jay Jaffe:
Re: Braun, it’s untrue that no player has ever successfully appealed a positive test result. Some have, but results did not become public
It’s very possible there have been many other cases just like this, the only difference being that this time some Dodger fan that works for MLB leaked the info.
It is what it is.
by coolig on Dec 11, 2011 11:20 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I've read that a few places and it really pisses me off
because I’ve got a very good feeling that this never gets leaked, it is resolved and Braun is standing in left field on opening day.
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That SI article makes me wonder
Is it possible his second test came back negative for the external testosterone, not just for his testosterone level? If it did he’s set, because it would show that something could have gone wrong in the lab.
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 11:24 AM CST reply actions
Sooooooooo
Anybody else remember the last time a bunch of a Jewish guy’s ardent followers jumped on a little bit of sketchy evidence presented by an outside authority to, ummmmm, crucify him? Because this seems unprecedented.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Dec 11, 2011 11:39 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
I think you've got the details a bit off there
But interesting comparison
by DudeBrewzWI on Dec 11, 2011 11:43 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think he was denied more than three times last night in the fanshot thread
By people who were formerly some of his closest supporters.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Dec 11, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
ah I gotcha - thought you meant his enemies
by DudeBrewzWI on Dec 11, 2011 11:55 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
And there were that
obnoxious Cards fan shouting his mouth off which definitely accounts for the “cock crowing” part of it…
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
by MrLeam on Dec 11, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought Pujols was baseball Jesus.
I’m so confused.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I think the Justice article sums up my views at this point pretty well
A large portion of my hesitancy to condemning Braun at this point is coming from the adamant denials coming from multiple sources of Braun’s camp and the Brewers. It really is a disservice to Braun at this point that someone can leak the news, but he can’t refute anything because of the appeal process.
BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.
by MadJimiBrewha on Dec 11, 2011 11:45 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I definitely think people need to relax a bit.
Hopefully he’s exonerated and whether he’s officially exonerated or not I really lean toward trusting Braun on this.
I don’t see why he would have suddenly started taking a banned substance when the Brewers were going to the post season.
Even if he is found guilty people need to settle down. This isn’t going to last forever, it’s not going to ruin his career. We’re talking about a first offense from a guy that’s been testing clean for 7 years and it’s not like he tested positive for hardcore steroids. His testosterone level was up and possibly had some synthetic testosterone. Not even in the same ballpark with Bonds and his magically expanding head.
Anyway, it’s not like you hear people talking about A-rod’s steroid use much (if ever) anymore and he was caught flat out lying about it. Life will go on.
I also think it is unbelievably irresponsible of ESPN to be reporting shit like this without all the facts when these situations are supposed to be confidential.
Hopefully he’s exonerated but if not there will be new stuff to worry about soon enough and by this time next year this will be a non-issue.
I have no concept.
by menchkins on Dec 11, 2011 11:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I completely forgot ARod was found positive.
Applying pop culture to Brewers discussions since 2009, earning the nickname of "Our Little Abed".
Assuming you're not being sarcastic, that's exactly my point.
A-Rod lied repeatedly about his steroid usage and then was caught in the lie.
You don’t see people calling for his head.
People will get over it, even if Braun is completely guilty which I obviously hope he isn’t.
I have no concept.
Yeah, that was not sarcasm at all.
Applying pop culture to Brewers discussions since 2009, earning the nickname of "Our Little Abed".
I honestly forgot.
Applying pop culture to Brewers discussions since 2009, earning the nickname of "Our Little Abed".
Really?
It was a huge scandal, and it wasn’t even that long ago. Some people may not think that Bonds, Clemens, or A-Rod deserve what they’ve gotten, but I think the baseball establishment is still strongly anti-steroid.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
According to Ken Rosenthal,
Braun tested positive for prohibited substance but not PED.
Go ahead, make my day.
by ilikeburritos on Dec 11, 2011 12:06 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Weird stuff coming out...
To clarify on Braun: What he did triggered violation of #MLB steroid-testing policy. Source says substance was prohibited, but not PED.
-Ken Rosenthal
But my source — and again, this is from Braun’s end and not MLB — familiar with the test’s findings says the “prohibited substance” was not a performance-enhancing drug or steroid of any kind. And the source says there has “never” been a result like this in the history of the MLB testing program.
-Haudricourt
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 12:06 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Hopefully this report is legit.
Go ahead, make my day.
by ilikeburritos on Dec 11, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
Hopefully it's like JC Romero
except he DOESN’T get the horribly unfair and crazy ban for taking something that wasn’t even really banned yet.
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
Rosenthal is pretty much the authority
He’s not going to publish something without a pretty solid idea that it’s accurate. Not that any of this makes any sense, elevated testosterone levels would pretty much by definition be performance-enhancing. It would make sense if it was an accidental use of a potential masking agent. Who knows, maybe ESPN has their facts wrong.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
Yeah, if it's not a PED but still a violation of the steroid policy it has to be something that looks like a masking agent?
I don’t know enough about what’s used for masking agents.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
Elevated testosterone....
… as I understand it, increases the body’s ability to recover from extreme efforts. Or at least that’s what WADA has always said. If the result is that unusual for the MLB testing program, that also provides another explanation for why they sent it to WADA for further testing. Elevated testosterone levels are something WADA is used to looking for and evaluating.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
wow.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
also in haudricourt's post
he says braun is only facing a 25 game suspension not a 50 game suspension
Every man must believe in something, I believe I'll have another drink.
If, hypothetically, the substance in question was a stimulant and not a PED.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Whoa
Now that is really really weird, considering the ban length is set in stone
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
here is the haudricourt post
Every man must believe in something, I believe I'll have another drink.
It's quoted below.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
Why thank you friend
What an interesting read…hmmm
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
How hilarious is it that if it turned out to be a positive test for, say, cocaine...
everyone would forget about it in a week?
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
It's much better for a player's reputation to be called a pothead than being called a cheater
Go ahead, make my day.
by ilikeburritos on Dec 11, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
Truth
Most people don’t even remember that ron washington did cocaine as a manager.
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Lincecum too
I thought it was pretty funny, actually. Doc Ellis is pretty much considered a hero. I’m rooting for that type of an outcome but with what ESPN reported it doesn’t make any sense.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
If non-ESPN sites are telling us to wait before passing judgement because the circumstances are weird, I'll wait.
Fuck ESPN.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and i thought to myself
i'm fighting all the french people i can find. happy cinco de mayo!
by sowingwildoats on Dec 11, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
that's my uneducated guess
but i’m fine with sitting around and waiting to see what happens.
by Capt Science on Dec 11, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
Rosenthal does say it falls under the steriod-testing policy,
but isn’t a performance-enhancing drug. So if it’s under the steroid policy it’s not going to be a recreational drug. But it could be a masking agent or stimulant, something like the Mike Cameron situation maybe.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
Could it have to do with
His side injury acting up around when the playoffs started, so he tried to up the testosterone so it’d heal and he could be on the field?
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
PEDs - the 21st Century witch hunt
So if he weighs the same as a duck…..
He floats!
And therefore….
A Witch!
by ddloml on Dec 11, 2011 12:26 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
So to try to get this clear in my head before I attempt some homework
If we’re dealing with ESPN’s set of facts;
He tested above the 4:1 ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. That could be the result of high testosterone or low epitestosterone. They also found evidence of synthetic testosterone. So if this is all true, and Rosenthal is also accurate, we’re looking at another banned drug, maybe a potential masking agent, that either elevated testosterone or lowered epitestosterone, possibly inadvertently.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
That's my reading of it
Although I’m not sure whether you get masking agents that also elevate testosterone or lower epitestosterone as then it presumably wouldn’t be a masking agent?
And Braun’s agent stating that “there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program” suggests to me that the defence is very likely to be that whatever he took was inadvertent.
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
More from Haudricourt
The source said MLB “knows that Ryan is telling the truth” and that source firmly believes the postive test will be overturned. Pretty amazing stuff, huh?
The source said more detail couldn’t be provided at this time because of the ongoing legal process. But suffice it to say that this is getting more interesting by the minute.
If the prohibited substance Braun tested positive for was a stimulant instead of a steroid, he wouldn’t be facing a 50-game suspension. The first offense for stimulants results in a 25-game suspension.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:30 PM CST reply actions
block quote fail
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
Mike Cameron's suspension was only 25 games, right?
by Noah Jarosh on Dec 11, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
That's my memory...
… but I think that was before they went to the 50, 100, lifetime ban scheme in place now.
But again, that’s the PED scheme.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
Clearly the guy who watched Braun pee in a cup....
… was a Cardinal fan. Probably dropped one of his viagara in the sample after he took possession.
"fortunate, but also lucky"
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Dec 11, 2011 12:39 PM CST reply actions
haha
i wouldn’t be surprised if the source of the leak is a card fan pissed off about alberta leaving
Every man must believe in something, I believe I'll have another drink.
It's gotta be
I can’t even number how many times I’ve read brain dead cookie cutter comments on every board about Braun should lose his award and give it to the “rightful” winner. Ugh
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
The worst thing is that literally the best case scenario, totally innocent
gets us right back to where we were yesterday before this news broke.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
Which is why ESPN should be held accountable for irresponsible reporting.
If he is actually innocent they should issue a formal apology at the very least.
I have no concept.
According to MLB Trade Rumors
The story was initially broken by YokalSports.com so presumably ESPN can argue they just covered it because it was already out in the public domain…
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
Who the ****
Is Yokalsports.com and why are they falsely accusing Braun of PED usage.
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
I'd be a lot angrier at whoever leaked it to ESPN
Than I’d be at ESPN.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly. They're supposed to be the ultimate authority on sporting news (which they aren't)
I have no concept.
Even if Braun's camp turns out to be right
I’m having a hard time figuring out what ESPN did with this story that was so heinous. Say that what we’re hearing from Braun’s people is the truth. Fainaru-Wada reported that
- Ryan Braun tested positive for testosterone ratios above the allowable threshold (true)
- This violation falls under the league’s PED policy, and is being dealt with through that process (true)
- Braun is appealing the result (true)
- Braun’s camp is extremely confident the result will be overturned and he won’t be suspended, but can’t say exactly why because of legal issues (true)
Sure, their story wasn’t totally complete and doesn’t have every detail needed to make a judgment of guilt or innocence, but that’s just how breaking news works now: Someone breaks the story, providing the skeleton of basic facts, someone else starts to flesh that out with more reporting, and then more and more and so on. That’s how it works with virtually every breaking story, in every field. The basic premise of the story that ESPN started with has held up just fine so far.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They also said he's facing a 50 game suspension for testing positive for a PED
not that it falls under the policy.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, you're right
We don’t know yet whether that’s true or false, but if it was a stimulant, rather than a PED, that would be an error on ESPN’s part.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
Or, like the Zach Lund piece
if its a ‘masking agent’ like finasteride, which actually doesn’t mask steroids, and is an anti-balding medication.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
That could be
I’m going to go ahead and guess Braun isn’t worried about balding, though :)
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
What about that massive cyst on the side of his face at one point?
Maybe some acne medication that made the list. Maybe viagra? Embarassing!
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
It's not that they reported the story, it's how they framed it that's the problem.
I have no concept.
by menchkins on Dec 11, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How is the way that ESPN has framed it any different from anyone else?
Most everyone seems to have played the ‘guilty until proven innocent’ angle, which is unfortunate, but I don’t see how ESPN’s doing that any more than anyone else.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
Well for starters they could have used the term "banned substance" rather than PED
The PED stigma is a really difficult one to shake.
Baned substance is a lot different.
I have no concept.
Yeah, banned substance would be more accurate
Though that actually includes recreational drugs (which this apparently wasn’t), and this does fall under the PED rules, so I think the use of ‘PED’ is somewhat understandable, if (possibly) not correct.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
Also, this shit is upposed to be confidential so there's that too.
In fairness they should reveal every single player who has ever had a positive test of any sort.
Assuming he is exonerated anyway.
I have no concept.
by menchkins on Dec 11, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The confidentiality issue is not really ESPN's problem, IMO
They’re not bound by the confidentiality agreement – if somebody is dickish enough to violate the agreement and tell them, they’re completely free to use that information, and if it’s someone as newsworthy as the reigning league MVP, I think they should use that information, as long as they can confirm it. That’s why my beef is with the leaker, not ESPN.
And ESPN isn’t going to reveal everyone who’s had a positive test because they don’t have access to that information in the first place. They were probably told about this case only because the player was so prominent – some asshole from MLB or a testing agency or wherever likely thought it was so juicy that he couldn’t help but tell Fainaru-Wada.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
Meanwhile ESPN sat on Bernie Fine's molestation of children for years.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm not going to defend them on that
That’s a totally different case from this one, though.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
I'll pretty much guarantee that whoever leaked the info got a nice payday out of it.
Regardless of whether ESPN is bound by the confidentiality or not, it’s still really irresponsible journalism.
It would be kind of like reporting the the President of the united states had been spending a lot of time with a beautiful blonde, that wasn’t his wife, causing a media firestorm and then later releasing the information that the beautiful Blonde was a prize winning Yellow Labrador.
Technically the initial report would be accurate but that doesn’t make it responsible journalism.
I have no concept.
by menchkins on Dec 11, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
To be honest
If the President had been “spending a lot of time” with a Labrador I’d hope someone would report it pretty instantly…
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
And I'll pretty much guarantee that ESPN did not pay their sources on this story.
Fainaru-Wada and T.J. Quinn are newspaper guys, and newspapers never do that kind of crap. Believe me, as a former newspaper guy myself, they would instinctively react against their news organization paying their sources, because it is so anathema to the journalistic culture they’ve come from. There’s just no way they would tell their editors who their anonymous sources were so that their editors could send them payments. Not only that, but there’s also no way ESPN is going to pay sources that don’t even appear on camera or deliver them with some sort of exclusive video.
And your analogy is an extremely flawed one – you’re implying that the difference between “testing positive for a PED” and “testing positive for a banned substance that falls under the PED rules” is as big as the difference between the president spending time with a dog and the president having an affair. I mean, come on, that’s an absurd comparison.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
The story didn't come from ESPN it came from Bum-fuck sporting news or whatever
And I bet they paid for the information.
The analogy of the president is extreme but If I replaced Yellow Lab with his cousin or an old family friend or something, I think it’s a sound comparison.
It’s irresponsible journalism to break a story that could have far reaching implications without having all of the facts.
I have no concept.
by menchkins on Dec 11, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think we've reached the 'agree to disagree' point on all of this
I’ll just say this before I quit: ESPN does tons and tons of stuff that ranges from stupid to ethically suspect to outright terrible, so they make an understandably easy target when something like this happens.
But I think Fainaru-Wada and Quinn’s report is due the same ‘Wait ’til all the facts come out’ approach that Braun is. When all this gets sorted out a few months from now, if it turns out one of the basic premises of this story is flawed, I’ll be right there to call those two out for shoddy reporting. But as of right now, everything in there (other than the “PED vs. banned substance” difference, which I’ve already acknowledged doesn’t seem to be accurate at this point) is holding up, so I’m going to withhold judgment.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
Thank you for your sensible view on this
For real. The notion that this is not news is insane. ESPN had every right to report it.
Did they even mention the Dan Lozano fiasco?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 6:05 PM CST up reply actions
So strange
US journalistic ethics for years have been light-years ahead of what we have over here. I know you’ll probably have heard about the recent inquiries into the papers over here (hacking into mobile phone messages of murder victims etc etc) but there’s so much other crap, like, irony of ironies, the journalist who won the Orwell Prize for journalism having to return it after being found guilty of plagiarism. Whereas in the US he’d have been sacked he’s been allowed to carry on here after an “investigation”.
I’m pretty sure if you did a poll over here about who had the lowest reputation that journalists would be right down the bottom with bankers…
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
Yeah, I've done quite a bit of writing about that phone-hacking scandal for work
British journalism really is kind of the Wild West compared to the U.S., which is a little bit odd, given that the American press have so much more legal freedom than the Brits do.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
Its reached the stage
Where you struggle to think what could possibly happen to make people think any worse of the British press. Hacking the phone of a murder victim – done that. Hacking the phone of the Mum of a different murder victim who is actually running a joint anti-paedophile campaign with your own paper – check. Hacking into the phones of Royals – yep (actually, that one’s kinda OK by me…). Running stories based on hacked information that have led to huge family tension and even alleged suicide – of course. There’s been big rumours that the suicide of the recent Wales soccer manager was due to a story about to be released on him by the tabloids – it sounds complete crap (and I hope it is) but if that ends up being true then there really will be a complete meltdown.
What’s the view of it over there?
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
Don't forget them then hiring PIs to track the people accusing them of those hacking crimes!
As for the view from the U.S., I write about media for a living, so I’m probably not the best person to ask for a typical American’s view. Most Americans, I suspect, don’t know or care much about the British press, beyond some vague notion of the tabloids and this hacking case in particular.
I personally don’t have much respect at all for the British tabloid press, or particularly for Murdoch’s papers. But I do recognize that they don’t represent the whole British press – the Guardian and the BBC are two of the best news organizations in the world, in my opinion.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
Interestingly
The Guardian’s recently come in for some criticism from Private Eye (UK’s leading satirical magazine) saying that it’s basically become a mouthpiece for certain US views re Iran, going so far as to say that this is more of an important issue in terms of media ethics than the Leveson Inquiry. I think this reflects the fact that the British papers are much more cavalier about not naming sources than the American media and hence can get away with writing unattributed crap without worrying that something will come back to bite them.
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
I have been drinking, know very little about publication laws and have a fuzzy memory
But didnt Farinau-Wada and his writing partner in Game of Shadows do time for not revealing sources? There are two ways that I look at that; either they are telling the truth, or they did NOT actually have reliable sources and rather than be ostracized from their profession and society, they decided to do their time and let it cool off.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
Fainaru-Wada and Williams didn't do time, though they were close
Details on their Wikipedia page. The jail issue had nothing to do with the reliability of their sources, though. It was about their unwillingness to rat out their anonymous sources. They had gotten information from closed grand jury testimony, and the courts wanted to know who had given it to them, so they could prosecute their sources for the leak. Just before they were about to go to jail for not giving up the name of their anonymous source, the source turned himself in, so Fainaru-Wada and Williams were let go.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 12, 2011 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
Well there's the fact that
They said he tested for a PED, and now it’s come out that he most likely did not. Testing for just a banned substance and a PED are very different in the eyes of the fans.
(Verb) you cardinals.
by Taterwithbacon on Dec 11, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yup, that's what I was saying too.
Obviously we won’t know until all the details come out but I am really curious to hear Braun talk about this.
I think the fact that HE requested the second test )if that’s true) speaks volumes.
I have no concept.
Not sure
I’ve never heard an athlete who’s first test has proved positive not asking for a second test. What do they have to lose?
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
Who's, whose, same word really...
"I love it when any team called 'The Brew Crew' wins": Tad Kubler
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool
Except
It won’t be just like before the news broke. This will now be something that follows Braun for the rest of his career. There will always be some level of suspicion that is higher than it was two days ago.
"My fellow nerds and I will retire to the nerdery with our calculators."
by craigholl on Dec 11, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Unfortunately, that would hurt his chances to win future awards (including future MVPs), even if he is clean the whole time and performs better than he did this year.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
I think people are making a lot bigger deal out of this than it is
Assuming the substance was not PED and especially if they find him innocent.
There will always be douchebags who accuse him of cheating but those d-bags are already out there anyway. I’ve read plenty of people accusing Fielder of Steroid abuse too. Of course, there’s no evidence of that whatsoever but that doesn’t stop people from being stupid.
I have no concept.
those are like the same people who accuse of Clay Matthews of using roids as well
I am too drunk to taste this chicken.
by ThroughBeingCool on Dec 11, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
There are people who don't think Clay Matthews is on roids?
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think he did. Unless a report comes out claiming he did, I'll continue to believe he is clean haha
I am too drunk to taste this chicken.
by ThroughBeingCool on Dec 11, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
I think nearly every non-QB non-NT is on steroids / HGH / whatever.
BJ Raji is only on Performance Enhancing Donuts.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
I think I am going to take Thomas Jefferson's advice
and only believe the advertisements on ESPN because they are the only truthful things on there
Every man must believe in something, I believe I'll have another drink.
Trenni's reporting the same stuff as Haudricourt, most likely from the same source
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
tweet from Jimmy Rollins
@stlcards314 never been overturned is “technically” correct. I know of a case that no one will hear about.
interesting
I am too drunk to taste this chicken.
by ThroughBeingCool on Dec 11, 2011 12:57 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Yep
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Even with the assumption Rollins re-signs with the Phillies
My respect for him over the last few days has grown immeasurably.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I really like Rollins, too
I like most of the guys on that Phillies team, actually (other than Victorino). I’m just not crazy about Philadelphia sports fans, or the absurd amount of money the Phillies have to sign all those guys.
by Cheeseandcorn on Dec 11, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
J-Roll gets a follow from me
I got goons.
by Dikembe Meiztombo on Dec 11, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
The same thing that Bob Nightengale said yesterday
That’s the reason this isn’t publicized before the suspension and test is confirmed. How many times has a positive test been overturned? Can’t say, because you only hear about the ones that have held up via suspension and release from MLB.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's been my main problem with ESPN
They’ve insisted that “no one has successfully appealed a positive test”. There’s no way to know that.
E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).
by Jordan M on Dec 11, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah that's just factually incorrect
ESPN is the Us Weekly of sports news.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
by mnbrewer on Dec 11, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting read I came across thanks to twitter
BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.
That
is a great article. Here are some money quotes:
A shadow loomed, though. The previous November, at a competition in Calgary, Lund had tested positive for a drug called finasteride, an anti-baldness medication that had been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), the Montreal-based outfit that sets drug-testing and enforcement policies for every Olympic and many non-Olympic sports. Lund started battling premature hair loss in 1997, so when WADA was formed two years later and then developed its first list of banned substances in 2004, he checked it carefully. He checked again when his doctor switched his medication brand. Finasteride wasn’t mentioned. Even so, Lund always told doping-control officials he was using it.
In 2005, WADA added finasteride to its list, saying the drug could mask the use of steroids. That year, Lund didn’t check the list. That may seem dumb, but Lund wasn’t doing anything different than he’d been doing for years, and he simply forgot. He kept telling doping officials he was using the anti-baldness drug, and nobody said a word. He’d even been tested after finasteride was banned and declared to be clean.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So, an anti-baldness medication is considered a steroid masking agent.
Huh.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."
~RRR
by Charlie Marlow on Dec 11, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
whats great is
the scientists who ran the experiment that add finasteride to the list said it shouldn’t be add to the list
Every man must believe in something, I believe I'll have another drink.
by pjpaulus on Dec 11, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hilarious line from the SI article
If you remember the “Is It Low T?” ads that ran incessantly during the MLB playoffs, you saw an advertisement for testosterone. Take it and you would test positive under MLB rules.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Dec 11, 2011 1:50 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
If Braun is innocent
the same ESPN media machine will be pumping out “Wait, he didn’t actually do it” stories as soon as it happens.
not with nearly as much zeal
It’s not a juicy enough story. Way better to talk about people who are guilty than people who are innocent.
I have no concept.
by menchkins on Dec 11, 2011 5:18 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I was just thinking the same thing
I’m not surprised at the amount of discussion going on about Braun since it’s huge news, but at this point, there hasn’t been any new facts reported on the case… just alot of speculation and theories.
I’m willing to put this on the back-burner for now until more details are released.
As far as the Cards deal, I think at this point they had to re-sign him as the best SS left in FA (assuming Rollins is going back to the Phillies). Furcal had a pretty bad 2011 season putting up a 0.5 fWAR… a new career low. In contrast, in 2008 he only played in 36 games, but managed to put up a 2.2 fWAR.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
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| W | L | PCT | GB | STRK | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Cincinnati
|
25 | 20 | .555 | 0 | Lost 1 |
|
St. Louis
|
25 | 21 | .543 | 0.5 | Lost 2 |
|
Houston
|
22 | 23 | .488 | 3 | Won 4 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
21 | 24 | .466 | 4 | Won 1 |
|
Milwaukee
|
19 | 26 | .422 | 6 | Won 2 |
|
Chicago
|
15 | 30 | .333 | 10 | Lost 10 |
(updated 5.26.2012 at 6:00 PM CDT)
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