Wednesday's Frosty Mug
Some things to read while calling the kettle black.
If you're like me, you're waking up to some pretty interesting news this morning. As the dust was settling from last night's All Star Game the Brewers announced they've acquired reliever Francisco Rodriguez and cash from the Mets in exchange for two players to be named later (FanShot). Noah reacted to the deal last night. There's a lot to process here, so let's go straight to the bullet points:
- Doug Melvin declined to specify what Rodriguez's role will be with the Brewers.
- The Mets are reportedly sending $5 million in cash, which would cover most of Rodriguez's contract for the rest of 2011.
- Rodriguez hired Scott Boras as his agent this week, and Tom Haudricourt wonders if that spurred the deal.
- Rodriguez has a vesting option in his contract that will pay him $17.5 million next season if he finishes 55 games this season. He's already finished 34 as a member of the Mets. Denny Knobler of CBS Sports says it's possible Scott Boras (Rodriguez's agent) will be willing to work out a deal to get rid of that option by increasing the current $3.5 million buyout.
- R.J. Anderson of Baseball Prospectus says "conventional wisdom suggests the Brewers should have spent their outgoing assets to fill their gaping shortstop hole."
- Tom Haudricourt is reporting that the Mets will get to select two players off of a list of Brewer minor leaguers.
- The terms of the deal mean many of us probably need a refresher course on some of the rules regarding trading minor leaguers. Draft picks cannot be traded until they've been signed for a full year, making it strongly unlikely any 2011 picks will be involved in this deal. Toby Harrmann points out that Tyler Thornburg was signed on June 13, 2010. If the Brewers had been dealing him, they wouldn't have needed to make him a PTBNL.
- In fact, Toby seems pretty confident the deal won't involve any of the Brewers' top prospects.
- With that said, Mark Attanasio reportedly told John Kruk of Baseball Tonight that he'd be ok with trading the entire farm system to win this year.
- Jaymes Langrehr of The Brewers Bar says "The wisdom of this move obviously depends on who the two PTBNL are, but giving up anything of real value for a half season of relief pitching will always make me a little worried."
- Tom Haudricourt says the deal "could prove to be relief version of CC Sabathia deal in middle of 2008 season."
Obviously, it's going to be impossible to fully evaluate this deal until we see all of the moving parts. My opinion of this trade could completely change if, for example, Tyler Thornburg and Kyle Heckathorn turn out to be the PTBNLs. In the meantime, though, I'm a little concerned about the possibility the Brewers just picked up a land mine
The Brewers don't need Francisco Rodriguez to close, and almost certainly won't use him in that way. To prevent him from getting the 21 more games finished he needs to vest his option, though, the organization may have to be more intentional than that. They may have to make a concerted effort to keep him out of situations where he could finish a game, whether it's the late innings of a blowout, extra innings, etc. K-Rod has $17.5 million on the table here and just hired baseball's most notorious agent. If the Brewers make a strong effort to keep him from getting that money, I can understand why he'd be motivated to make it an issue.
Meanwhile, Prince Fielder flew home last night while carrying a shiny crystal bat. He was named the All Star Game MVP after driving in three runs with the first ASG homer in Brewer history. Fielder has spent most of the last three days in front of cameras and microphones, and here's some of the better stuff:
- Mike Bauman, Alden Gonzalez and Barry. M. Bloom of MLB.com all have stories on Fielder this morning.
- Adam McCalvy has Fielder's reaction to the Rodriguez trade.
- Big League Stew has video of Prince's reaction to his son Haven trying his Gatorade.
- Fielder and Ryan Braun appeared as part of Jerry Crasnick's list of the top ten perks of being an All Star.
- Cecil and Prince Fielder are now the first father and son combination to bat cleanup in an All Star Game.
- Bob Scanlan named Fielder his first half NL MVP.
- Phil Rogers of The Chicago Tribune is picturing Fielder as a Cub.
At any rate, with Fielder's performance and the K-Rod trade Scott Miller of CBS Sports says the Brewers stole All Star night.
While Prince Fielder and Francisco Rodriguez were getting the headlines, Ryan Braun inched one day closer to returning. He took batting practice with the NL squad again yesterday and told Tom Haudricourt he feels good and is glad he made the trip to Arizona. He expects to be back in the lineup tomorrow.
Moving forward: The Brewers open an eleven game road trip with a series in Denver this weekend, and Zack Greinke is scheduled to start on Saturday. Jon Paul Morosi of Fox Sports listed Greinke as one of the X-factors for baseball's second half. He's also the topic of this week's edition of A Simple Kind of Fan.
The Brewers made a move last night, but team's weakest link is still at shortstop. Carson Cistulli of FanGraphs has a graph of players that could be available to take Yuniesky Betancourt's spot if the Brewers decide to make a move. Jaymes Langrehr of The Brewers Bar has a reminder that Betancourt is dead last among NL shortstops in UZR. Rob Lucas of the Beloit Daily News says it's time for the Brewers to make a move.
Despite their weaknesses, Barry Larkin is still picking the Brewers to win the Central.
In the minors:
- Toby Harrmann of Disciples of Uecker has an interview with Wisconsin pitcher Jimmy Nelson.
- Mitch Stetter and his wife recently had a baby, and named it CC.
- Baseball America has a midseason organizational report for the Brewers, but it's subscriber-only.
- All of the stateside Brewer affiliates were off yesterday, so Minor League Notes will return tomorrow.
I've never attended a Brewer Block Party, but I know some of you have. Howie Magner of Milwaukee Magazine went to one over the weekend and came back with a good story.
Around baseball:
Dodgers: Acquired outfielder Juan Rivera from the Blue Jays for a PTBNL or cash and designated outfielder Marcus Thames for assignment.
One of my favorite All Star quotes from last night has nothing to do with K-Rod or Fielder. After the game, with Rickie Weeks sitting next to him, Andrew McCutchen denied untucking his shirt following the victory. Weeks was amused by the question.
McCutchen was one of three Pirates to go to the All Star Game, while the Royals still had just one (reliever Aaron Crow, who did not pitch). Sam Mellinger reports that the Kansas City Star has sent more reporters than the Royals have sent players in each of the last 12 seasons.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go check a birth certificate.
Drink up.
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I love Attanasio
win or lose – atleast he is willing to go for it
booyakasha!
by b3nihana on Jul 13, 2011 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Astros had 6 playoff appearance in 9 years
Including a WS.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 13, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
For a WS?
Yup. Especially since the Brewers are not going to be as bad as the Astros are now, unless they get crazy unlucky on the injury front.
Braun, Weeks, Gallardo, Hart, Morgan, Lucroy, Axford, Narveson are under control for a while. That’s more talent than the Astros have on their team by a long shot.
by JLHanke on Jul 13, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well
The last Astro playoff appearance was 2007 correct? So it was 5 seasons ago. By that time Hart (who I wouldnt really be holding up as a linchpin type of player for success), Narveson and Axford will all be gone by that time.
So even 3 years out, you are looking at a dire situation perhaps. And they made a World Series but didnt win it.
I guess my point on that alludes to something I was taught was you shouldnt be just shooting for the playoffs, it should be for titles. No one remembers the runners up. If its not a WS victory, is it worth it in the end?
Well you have to get in the playoffs to have a chance
Seems lots of people want the Brewers to be run like the Rays and Twins, teams that have never won a WS.
Obviously McLane and the Astros didn’t handle the post Bagwell/Biggio era well, but they had a hell of a run that lasted about a decade. They had a 102 win season – its not like they weren’t shooting for a championship.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 13, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
"never won a WS"
Twins have won three WS titles… 1924, 1987 and 1991.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Give me a break
You know that isn’t what I meant, the whole thing we’ve been debating is about current management and organizational structure
Get a ife broseph
I realize this
and am in agreement with you on your stance.
Just wanted to point out that the Twins have won a WS.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
You can't get into the World Series if you don't qualify for the playoffs, right?
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
If we gave up nothing of significance
than the trade is ok. I just dont like giving up top prospects for rentals which is why I would like a guy like Furcal who would be a total salary dump or Carroll who is old and wouldnt cost much either.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
And let me flip the question:
if they DO win the World Series this season, will you think it was worth the cost?
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
If they win a WS
I would admit that I was incorrect.
But I would much rather have the long term success that could be obtained by developing and drafting key players.
Is there any team in the last 30 years or so that has won 1 World Series and hasnt stayed competitive for a reasonable amount of time thereafter?
Won a World Series and didn't stay competitive?
Besides the Marlins (twice) and the D’backs?
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Jul 13, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Cardinals
1 playoff appearance in 5 years following their WS.
White Sox – 1 playoff appearance in 6 years following their WS
Get a ife broseph
the Marlins (twice) kind of defeats the purpose
And D backs made playoffs following year and missed by a few the next.
The Fish won the WS in 1997 and 2003.
In between, they didn’t have a winning season. That qualifies as “competitive”?
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Jul 13, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You said
Is there any team in the last 30 years or so that has won 1 World Series and hasnt stayed competitive for a reasonable amount of time thereafter?
I would say that the 5 straight losing seasons after winning the ’97 WS would be considered not staying competitive for a reasonable amount of time.
I would also say that losing over 100 games only 3 years after winning the WS is the very definition of not staying competitive for a reasonable amount of time.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
by sjlee on Jul 13, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
And this confuses me:
I would much rather have the long term success that could be obtained by developing and drafting key players.
What is your definition of “long-term success”? Just winning multiple World Series, right? What team has focused on draft and development and has won multiple World Series in the last 20 years?
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
And have we forgotten that the Brewers drafted or developed basically the entire roster?
C- Drafted
1B- Drafted
2B- Drafted
3B – Waiver wire pickup & developed
SS- Traded from prospects
LF- Drafted
CF/CF2 – Traded from prospects
RF- Drafted
P1- Drafted
P2- Traded from prospects
P3- Traded from prospects
P4- Free agent signing
P5- Free agent signing & developed
you get the point. So why are the Rays and Twins sooo much better?
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
by jarlbartar on Jul 13, 2011 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Because they haven't accepted the fact yet that you can only get so far on homegrown talent alone
If you aren’t a rich team and you want a legitimate shot at the world series (not just playoff berths) you have to choose your time and go for it, hoping that you planned it well enough that you get a 2-3 year window of WS contention.
Which is why I don't understand all of the hand wringing
The team is built of mostly home grown developed talent with a good mix of cheap veteran free agents and a few value trades for prospects and a few people are pissing themselves for not doing it the right way. Go ahead and laud the Rangers, A’s and Rays for how great they do it and doing it the right way. The bottome line is that without some fairly deep pockets, it’s not going to happen year in and year out.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
There's not a whole lot of "hand wringing" going on
It’s pretty much one person doing it.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
So if the Rays, Twins, Rangers, etc
Don’t win a WS, their strategy has been a failure?
Has to be if you believe that “If its not a WS victory, is it worth it in the end?”
Get a ife broseph
I just think it is
Especially if you fall off of a cliff after not reaching your goal.
Which is something that could happen.
Even with the All in philosophy, the Brewers werent and arent a lock. Lose Fielder, you are maybe .500 or slightly above. Its a huge risk.
Fall off a cliff after not reaching your goal?
Are we talking about the Twins or future Brewer teams?
Get a ife broseph
Famous words
You tried and you failed. The lesson is, never try.
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
Developing and drafting key players
Like Fielder, Braun, Weeks, Hart, Lucroy, Gallardo, Axford (not drafted here, but developed here), and Braddock?
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I am also a development guy
I dont like going “all in” as a strategy. I prefer to spend on the draft and international signings so we have a wealth of young talent that can compete most years.
I would hate to be completely irrelevant for 5 yrs or longer like the Astros are going to be. Im hoping that after the season the owner looks a little deeper and starts to realize that young talent is what we need to focus on.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Like the Rays and Twins?
Or who would be your model franchise you’d like the Brewers to follow?
Get a ife broseph
Rays
Despite the lack of a WS title, they have been competitive for 4 straight years in the toughest division in baseball, with a WS appearance.
You put that philosophy in play, and it works, in the NLC, there is no telling how successful the team could be for a very long time.
Twins have done the same thing, and have always had to get past the just a bit better Yankees to advance.
They are very good models to emulate for small market teams. The current approach with this model for the Brewers is unsustainable, perhaps as soon as next season.
Then why are you here?
Why aren’t you on the Twins or the Rays SBN sites if you like their style so much? Or even the Giants SBN site, since you’re a fan of that team?
Or is it that your personality is such that you actually enjoy pointing out what you see as the flaws of a team’s approach rather than it’s successes? Maybe you just like peeing in people’s cheerios, to borrow the phrase you used when you first began ripping on the Brewers’ approach to this season.
I keep trying to figure out your motivations in being here, and I’ll admit that I can’t quite pull it off. Or at least, I hope I can’t. Because if the guesses in the second paragraph of this comment are accurate, then I feel sorry for you, and I wish you’d find a way to keep your misery to yourself.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 13, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
Using the NLC is not an accurate comparison
The central is in disarray or will be in the next few years. The Cubs and Astros are awful and will not be getting much better for a few years at least, the Pirates are above average right now but not great, and the Cardinals are good but very beatable and Larussa’s not gonna hang around forever. So the division should be available for whoever wants it and should be able to be won with average talent within the next few years. The Brewers arent competing with the Rays or Yankees and dont play in the toughest division in baseball so they may even be good in the division in the near future.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
I can't wait to see what happens to teh Cardinals when LaRussa and Dave Duncan leave or retire.
I will be very happy that day.
For your health!
Rays
that is the model organization. They have made the playoffs several times and even got to a world series playing in the AL east with a payroll that is much smaller than the Brewers even. If the Rays were in the NL Central they would pretty much be a lock to make the playoffs this year and be in great position for the next 5 years.
The only issues the Rays have are they play in the AL East against two teams that have 4 times their payroll and that their payroll is so low that they cant keep many of their stars.
I love how they draft and develop and trade players at their highest value. A great example of this is the Garza trade. The Rays got several potential stars for a pitcher who had peaked.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
By making the playoffs several times
I assume you meant twice? Garza has been 2.5 WAR so far, and the Rays are 5 games out of the playoffs. Would be interesting to see what could have been.
Maybe if they had developed better they wouldn’t have had to depend on crappy FA like Johnny Damon and Manny Ramirez?
Get a ife broseph
What team has drafted better than the Rays?
over the last 7 or 8 years. If they didnt have such a small payroll they wouldnt have to sign a stopgap like Damon every once in awhile. Any team with that kind of payroll is gonna have some holes.
The Brewers payroll is much higher than Tampa and we are starting two below replacement level players as our left side of the infield.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
By the same token
The Rays draft sooo much better than the Brewers and only have 2 pitchers about 1 WAR and relying on fossils for their lineup. Their strategy of trading assets who put up good numbers (like Garza) doesn’t seem to be working that well for them.
Get a ife broseph
Hard to say
that things arent working well for them when they are possibly the third best team in the American League. If the Rays were in our division they would most likely win it going away.
I think their trading strategy is working very well. They turned Delmon Young into Garza, Edwin Jackson into Matt Joyce and this Garza trade will probably turn out very well. They received Archer who is supposed to be good, a young shortstop who was in the futures game and Sam Fuld who is at least serviceable.
I dont expect the Brewers to be a perfect organization but I would like to see a better balance between going for it today and thinking about the next 5 years. Most people seem to think the Brewers will be just fine once Prince leaves but the hole he will leave in our lineup will be substantial. I realize we can use the money for an upgrade at shortstop but I doubt it will be enough to contend next year.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh, they traded Garza for prospects, killing this year
Who knows what they could have been last year had they added some pieces and gone “all in” at the expense of some of their prospects?
I like the Rays draft and international stuff, I wouldn’t want the Brewers to run their organization the way the Rays do.
Get a ife broseph
Hold up on the draft note
let’s look at where they were picking in every round the past 8 years:
2004- 4th pick in every round
2005- 8th pick in every round
2006- 3rd pick in every round
2007- 1st pick in every round
2008- 1st pick in every round
2009- 30th pick in every round
2010- 17th pick in every round
2011- 32nd pick in every round
go back 5 more years and you the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd, the 6th, and the 1st.
when you have 5 years of getting the top talent in every round, it means you will usually get a great system unless you are pittsburgh or kc with their budget constraints.
If you want to model building a farm system, check out the Rangers dominating Latin america AND doing well in the draft.
"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."
BCB Fantasy Football League 1 Champ
by Hyatt on Jul 13, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Rangers
are absolutely another fine example. They draft well and sign lots of international talent. As for the Rays they have gotten several really good players like Matt Moore in the later rounds while the Brewers have been pretty bad outside of the first round or two.
Why cant we have both; try to win now and pay more attention internationally as well as draft better. Why do we have to keep picking mostly low ceiling talent and mostly ignoring the international players.
We are all enjoying winning now but I think we have taken our eye off the ball in regards to drafting and developing the best talent. A small market team like ours will always need a strong farm system and it appears to me as if this owner has severe tunnel vision and it prevents him from seeing the bigger picture.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't that the point we've been debating?
Its pretty hard to “win now” and plan for the future, because “winning now” usually means trading a lot of your prospects and putting resources you would normally put into the minor leagues into the major league squad.
Many teams that go on runs where they are successful will fall back to the pack or struggle later. Really, the only way to have long term success and win WS is to have a lot of cash.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 13, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can definitely have both
there is no reason to ignore the higher ceiling talent in the draft and internationally. Organizations with great talent pipelines have the potential to compete almost every year. The Rays and Rangers are playoff caliber teams now and will be for the next five years or longer all because their main focus is scouting and player development.
The criticism of the Rays saying that they have only been in the playoffs twice is way off base. This team is one of the best in baseball and only the payroll disparity between them and the yankees and red sox has kept them from making the playoffs.
If you put the Rays in our division they would have made the playoffs three consecutive years and this year would most likely make four. They have an unbelievable pipeline of young talent many that they drafted after the first few rounds like Matt Moore who is probably the best prospect in baseball in the 8th round.
My point is really this simple; Tampa and Texas focus on the draft and signing international talent and both organizations are competing for the playoffs every year. The Brewers on the other hand are an organization that feels forced to put all their chips in the pot because they have done such an awful job the last 3 plus years of drafting and signing international talent.
This owner is showing himself to be very shortsighted in how he is doing business. By not spending on amateur talent we will have to sign stopgaps at several positions in order to reach mediocrity in the upcoming years.
Sorry for being so long winded but my main point is we should always have an eye on the future while also trying to be competitive today. A good start to this would be to fire Bruce Seid and hire a top of the line scouting director.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
So who exactly should the Brewers have drafted in the past three years
Who would have made it unnecessary to go outside the organization to get talent? There’s hardly anyone who was available to the Brewers from 2008-2010 (i.e. not drafted before their spot) who could be making a difference on the 2011 squad.
The way the Brewers have drafted and developed talent in the past three years matters for the long-term, but it really has little to do with the Brewers’ efforts to go hard this year. The Brewers fantastically executed the small-market draft-and-develop plan from about 2002-2008, and that’s what’s allowed them to make a playoff push this year and in 2008.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
so what is the ultimate goal?
To be consistently competetive or to win a championship? They don’t make t shirts and build statues to honor teams that were competetive for a decade; hey remember the Twins of the 2000s and how scrappy the Rays were? Maybe they can put up a pennant in Miller park stating gow competetive the team was in the 2010 to 2020 decade
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
by jarlbartar on Jul 13, 2011 7:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Ultimate goal
is to win championships or course but the best way to do that is by having a constant stream of young talent so that you can make a run at the playoffs most years. We are in a position to possibly make the playoffs this year but take drastic steps back in the next few years.
If you can make the playoffs on a fairly consistent basis you have a better chance of winning a championship than hoping you get lucky the one time you make it.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions
than that clinches the point
That they need to go all in this year since they will be dropping off in the future. With the prospects they have now they won’t be making a push after the next 3 years or so and I think DM knows this. I agree that they need to develop through the draft and moderately priced free agents, which they have been doing since their only “big” free agent signings would be Wolf and maybe Saito. So they have been doing it, they just traded being above average for the next 3 to 5 years to be hopefully ultra competetive and win it all this year. This is undeniably their best chance to win with the roster that they have put together compared to the rest of the NL.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
by jarlbartar on Jul 13, 2011 8:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Rays vs Pirates draft
We all know that the Rays had financial constraints as well…what really screwed the Pirates over the past decade until the last few years was some completely stupid drafting.
I would hope that the Rays had pretty good drafts over the past 7-8 years
They were in the basement of their division from 1998-2007.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
by sjlee on Jul 13, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
So they've made the playoffs...
Once more than the Brewers in the last three years.
by Cervercero on Jul 13, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I assume the Brewers are going to be there in 5-8 years, anyhow.
Eventually, this great crop of players will be whittled away—too expensive or past their primes to be valuable. The Brewers will cycle back to the bottom, and hopefully build themselves back up in a timelier fashion than the last time they cycled to the bottom.
Agree
Though the pregame ceremonies were so long, I’m pretty sure I fell asleep somewhere in there, so I may have missed something.
They interviewed Wilson after the game
He actually seemed to tone it down a little… and actually answer most of the questions seriously.
McCarver called him “something else” afterwards. Perhaps they should’ve showed McCarver the interview Chris Rose did via webcam if he thought Wilson was acting up last night.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Nah, that was one of the more annoying parts.
Someone said last night that Wilson is like the Giants’ Nyjer Morgan. I disagree. I think Wilson’s weirdness is much more calculated (especially now that he’s realized how much endorsement money it can net him), where Nyjer is more of an all-natural nut.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Nyjer will meet fans for bbq, go fly a shark kite by suggestion on an off day, have no idea he hit a walkoff (or know what inning it was), and has the only alter ego in the game with its own shirsey in the team store.
Brian Wilson has an beard.
"...just throw that pill over the plate and I'll make it happen." - Tony Plush
by thefreewheelin76 on Jul 13, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
lol, i love wilson.
i believe he’s been weird a while, he just gets noticed since he’s been better and his team won the world series.
He strikes me as the guy
who wears the straight brimmed John Deere hat and flanel because "I’m so ironic man, can you believe how Ironic I am, OMG!) Whereas Nyjer didnt even realize he had a hat on; “Damn dude, this isnt even my hat! Hahahah!!” Everything Wilson does seems incredibly staged.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
by jarlbartar on Jul 13, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not if you do it when you're 15.
I don’t know… His enthusiasm seems so genuine, that I can’t think he’s doing this all for PR.
And it's an inside joke between you and your 3 best friends.
He’s not to blame for it hitting the mainstream. Dude’s just having fun.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
Nyjer Morgan needs to grow a Brian Wilson beard.
That would be awesome.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
I don't know if he could
He’s almost as young looking as Craig Counsell. I don’t know if either could grow a beard as thick as Wilson.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Me and my roommates were cracking up at this. Thought it was hilarious, along with the JT interview
"Cubs fans boo again – 99% of these people can’t see the plate." -Ueck
any time someone can dis Joe Buck
they respect baseball
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
just a classy guy with a classy voice
i'm fighting all the french people i can find. happy cinco de mayo!
by sowingwildoats on Jul 13, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed, although
Wilson reading the NL lineup was a close 2nd.
He is just stale at this point, as far as I'm concerned
He’s a just slightly less annoying Lady Gaga, as far as I can tell, the difference of course being that Wilson has some talent. They’ve formed their public identities around being weird, and now they feel that they have to continue doing stupid crap just to keep it up. Just look at how they dress for big events. Lady Gaga wore a meat dress thing to whatever awards show because she had to be weird, regardless of whatever else she claims the reason was. Brian Wilson wore a tuxedo leotard to the ESPYs for the same reason. He’d be a lot more likeable if he didn’t come across as being full of shit at this point.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
by Tepo6688 on Jul 13, 2011 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Meh
i think he’s amusing. It’s good to have characters in the game.
For your health!
by menchkins on Jul 14, 2011 2:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure
but when he is so obviously not genuine about it, that’s when it wears on me.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
But Tony Plush saying, "AAAAAAAAHHHH I GOTTA GO!" in every interview he does seems genuine to you?
It was funny the first time because it was natural. Now he’s just trying to relive that line over and over.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
I don't see his interviews very often
because DirecTV cuts the feed pretty quickly after the final out, so I can’t really speak on that.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
Reference to K-Rod bargaining his option
He’ll going to have far more salary security as a FA next year than being stuck with a $17.5 million option for 2012. He’ll get a 3 year contract for $30+ million from someone next year if he doesn’t get injured this year. Closers drop out of prominence faster than any position in baseball. A poor 2012 would drop his earnings potential dramatically. Meanwhile, a great 2012 adds almost nothing to his current FA value.
If Boras can get through to him that he may ultimately make more money by not having his option exercised, I don’t think it will be a problem. I could see the Brewers increasing the buyout to $5 million as “insurance money” to prevent an irrational reaction. Oftentimes the illusion of control one’s fate is enough, regardless of the actual facts of the situation.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
by ecocd on Jul 13, 2011 10:13 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Saying the right things.
Patrt of a rough Google translation of a Tweet of his was “new team battlecry.” I think Boras prepared him for this and has him motivated to cash in during the offseason. If he’s focused on that, the Brewers are going to get a great rental out of him.
by mpbMKE on Jul 13, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Boras
was just hired as K-Rod’s agent this week then would he get commision on the $17.5 million option. I think that would go to the agent who was there when he signed the original deal. I thought that is how it worked for Manny in Bos when Manny signed Boras.
If that is the case then Boras would not want the option to vest.
"You are only a success at the moment that you do a successful act"
-Tex Winter
Nope.
The negotiating agent gets that commission. Boras can only get paid for new money—ie, new contracts, sponsorship deals, etc. Otherwise that would be a horridly unfair system for the negotiating agent,
well, that's still a new contract
so boras still gets paid. he just doesn’t truly want the option to vest
by Capt Science on Jul 13, 2011 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
K-Rod Usage
OK, I’ll try and relieve Kyle’s concerns about K-Rod’s usage and possible anger at the Brewers. I’m not saying that this is what DM and RR are GOING to do, but here is what I think they SHOULD do:
Sit down with K-Rod right away and be honest. “Look, Francisco – you pretty much have known for a while that no team was going to let your option for games finished vest this year. You have the right to maybe be a little upset by that, but it’s reality. You will not be our regular closer for the rest of the year because of that – we love you and went out and got you early because we think you can really help our team, but you’re not going to close for us every game.”
“However, here is what you ARE going to do. You’re going to be more like the closers in the old days. We’ll call it the Fireman role. You are going to be our go-to guy whenever the game is on the line in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and sometimes the 9th inning. When we have a 1 run lead in the 7th, 2 guys on, and the #3 hitter up and need a big strikeout – you’re getting the call. When we come back to tie up the game in the top of the 8th, you’re getting the call. When we’re clawing back to down by 1 run in the top of the 9th and need to give ourselves a chance in the bottom half, you’re getting the call.”
“Yeah, we’re gonna make sure that you’re not closing all the time. But we need you to be a huge part of our plan to win this division. You’re gonna probably pitch more innings than if you were closing – we may ask you to pitch more than just 1 IP in some games. We need you to still be the dominant strikeout pitcher you’ve always been. You do that, and I promise you that you’ll be in the game in big spots and be a big piece of this team.”
“After this season, we’ll talk about arbitration and free agency and whatnot. You pitch like you know how for the rest of the year, and you’re gonna get paid a lot of money, so don’t think that we’re doing this to screw you over or anything. If you help us make a deep playoff run, you’re gonna be more valuable on the open market than if you kept closing games for a losing team.”
That’s what I’d do, at least. I think that’s the thing that makes the most sense, not to just make K-Rod the new K-Loe and the “8th inning guy.” RR has not shown great bullpen management, but he’s been very outside the box on other strategy aspects like defensive positioning, so I see no reason why he wouldn’t be open to being creative with K-Rod’s usage. Since he CAN’T be the conventional closer because of that contract, why not try something a little different?
by JLHanke on Jul 13, 2011 10:15 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Outside-the-box
Don’t forget… using the backup catcher as a PH.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Exactly what they should do, for sure
And use him like the Reds had been using Aroldis Chapman – for ~3 outs of dominance anywhere in the late innings when the bats need to be quieted.
Except
Hope that K-Rod can actually throw strikes once in awhile, unlike Chapman. He’d be a lot more valuable if he wasn’t giving up 9.14 BB/9 (yeah, you read that right).
Agreed
Oh, I totally agree, just saying I’m not sure it’ll last. It’s amazing that DESPITE how awesome he’s been since coming back, his BB/9 is STILL over 9.
In 8.2 IP since coming back (so I’ll just round up to 9), he’s around a 1.0 ERA, 2 BB/9, and 17 K/9. Yeah, 17!!! He’s struck out 17 of 28 batters faced. So yeah, if he keeps pitching like that, watch out!
Judgement withheld on the trade until we know:
- If this in anyway precludes them from upgrading at SS.
- Obviously, who PTBNL are.
With the cash the Mets sent along
It doesn’t preclude the Brewers from upgrading at SS. The PTBNL are still of concern.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Still lingering...
Yes, my first reaction was horror when I saw it on the ESPN crawler from the patio of a restaurant because I figured we’d spent our few available chips on the pen. Now, my optimistic side is hoping this just signals that they’re even more all in and wouldn’t do this if they weren’t also going for a SS.
according to MLBTR
the PTBNL won’t be top top guys:
Brewers GM Doug Melvin told Jim Memolo and Mel Antonen of MLB Network Radio that the list of five minor league players the Mets will choose from in September does not include the Brewers’ “top top guys,” but they are “players that could play in the big leagues.”
by Capt Science on Jul 13, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
"players that could play in the big leagues"
Considering that Yuni is our starting SS, I’d say that statement provides very little meaning or insight.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
by sjlee on Jul 13, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
well, it provides a ceiling
i doubt minor league equivalents of yuni are in the “top top guys”.
by Capt Science on Jul 13, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Yuniesky Betancourt + Jeff Suppan=
Brent Brewer + Eric Arnett.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
This guy is almost as good
And has come much much cheaper. If the Brewers trade for Heath Bell, say goodbye to all of our top 3 prospects.
by cwolf20 on Jul 13, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Our top 3 prospects wouldn't be enough.
I think the rest of baseball is looking at this trade and saying, “What? I didn’t know they were just GIVING him away!”
Well, considering reports have come out saying that they shopped him around to a bunch of teams, and the Brewers were willing to eat the most salary,
I don’t think anyone around baseball was saying that. Teams are scared of his vesting option, or they were hoping to talk the price down towards the end of the month.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
I don’t understand what there is to be scared of though. Just don’t use him in the 9th inning. Maybe they’re worried about some kind of grievance but Rodriguez seems like he would have an extremely weak case, imo; you can’t specify what role the player is going to be used in in the contract.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
He could start blowing road games in the 8th, to make sure he's the last pitcher in the game.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
True
But it wouldn’t take them very long to see what he was doing and move him to an even earlier inning.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Ok, maybe :)
If the Brewers have something like 35 road games left, he’d need to be pretty busy though.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
Heath Bell has a 6.57 K/9 this season and would cost much, much more.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
Naming his kid CC
It’s a little odd to have a teammate do that, isn’t it? I mean, I can understand thinking the name is a good name, but he was a teammate. My wife likes the name Jean Luc for some reason and I’m neutral on it (“JL” ain’t a bad nickname). The problem is that I’m a Trekkie so I can’t possibly name one of my children Jean Luc, because them I’m a crazed fan that named his son after the captain of the Enterprise-D.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
After the real father?
Maybe the Deity is like Zeus…
by Zack Greinke's Paxil on Jul 13, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Willing to trade the whole farm system?
to win this year is crazy. If we could guarantee 100% that we would win the world series I would agree but the whole “all in” strategy is not one that I like at all. Attanassio should really be looking to build an organization that is competitive each and every year instead of rolling the dice on one shot.
Maybe this is why we havent spent much on latin american free agents and have been ultra conservative in the draft. By ignoring the player development side we are risking becoming the Astros in a few years.
I don't think he meant it literally.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
by sjlee on Jul 13, 2011 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha, I was wondering who would bring this up
Since we can’t complain about the prospects being traded because we don’t know who they are, we can complain about Latin America because of the money being given to K-Rod.
You have a point, was just wondering how the “we’re not thinking about the future!” people would have a problem with the deal.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 13, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
An organization that has Braun, Weeks, Hart and Gallardo locked up long term and money to spend will be competitive.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Jul 13, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention Jungmann/Bradley/Lopez soon to sign
All three of whom might be better than any prospect in the Brewers system, and all three of whom can’t be traded.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
The Astros went to the World Series
And the Brewers have already proven that they can develop players. Brett Lawrie turned into Shawn Marcum, Cutter Dykstra turned into Nyjer Morgan, a middling outfielder turned into a stud pitcher that carried this franchise on his back into the playoffs. They may not havedeveloped their entire team that is taking the field right now, but they are reaping the benifits of a superior minor league system. Without that system in place, these players are not on the team.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
by jarlbartar on Jul 13, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also
Without a lot of “top” prospects in the system right now, I have no problem with trading our best prospects (who project to be average-to-good major leaguers at best) to try and get to/win a World Series in 2011 and/or 2012. If we were trading away top caliber prospects that would turn into players like Braun, Fielder, Weeks, Hardy, Gallardo, etc in 5 years, that would be different. If we’re trading guys that may turn into Hart, Felipe Lopez, Greg Zaun, Narveson, Parra, etc in 5 years, I’m OK with that, because you can find/develop those players a lot easier than the superstars.
In other words, since there aren’t many impact prospects in the system right now, I’m fine with clearing the cupboard to win this year and next year, because the guys we’re trading aren’t going to carry us to the playoffs in 2015 anyways. The team just needs to draft/develop well the next 5-10 years to recover from this, but it makes no sense to hang on to C level prospects just because they’re the best in your system right now if you can get players that help you win on the ML level.
by JLHanke on Jul 13, 2011 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I believe you gotta go for it while you are able to
Ask a Cubs fan if they would have given up some prospects in 2003 for a better shot at a pennant. Another opprotunity like this may not come along for 30 years or more. I would rather look back at this season and think that they did everything possible to win it all, including reading the BCB history story about the day they finally got rid of Yuni.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
You don't really advocate talking to Cubs fans, do you?
by placidity on Jul 13, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hart
Not dissing him per se, I’m just saying that if he’s your best player (something along the lines of Hunter Pence with the Stros right now), you’re in trouble. If he’s your 4-5th best position player and you have 3 good SPs and 3 good RPs, then you can win.
I know, haha.
I know the list isn’t scientific, but I’d put Hardy and Hart in the same group. They both have had great seasons, but they’ve also had some long bad stretches. Hart, to me, still looks like the better offensive player, this JJ Hardy renaissance year not withstanding.
Only problem is
We play against teams that can afford both to grow their own quality talent and buy whatever they need each year. Basically when our window opens we need to jump through it or it’s gone for another decade.
by nullacct on Jul 13, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
growing talent and buying yearly needs don't have to be mutually exclusive though...
buying a large amount of yearly needs that thins your talent is a problem, which the brewers have done, but they only were able to thin their talent level BECAUSE they grew quality talent…
Trading for relievers
Also, I’ve seen lots of comments from people saying that trading for relievers is generally a bad idea. I’m not gonna do the exhaustive research on all the trades, and I know that it’s a risky strategy (probably because relief pitcher performance is more variable than SPs because they pitch fewer innings in higher leverage – one or two bad outings have more effect and regressions are more pronounced). However, there are recent examples of closers traded near the deadline who have been pretty valuable over the stretch run.
F. Cordero to the Crew in 2007 – I know that the trade itself is not comparable to the K-Rod deal because the Crew gave up way more to get him, but look at the numbers. Cordero appeared in only 28 games for the Crew, but threw up a 1.69 ERA, 16 saves, and 0.5 WAR (though his peripherals weren’t as good as that).
Kerry Wood to the Yankees 2010 – This trade is a lot more similar to the K-Rod deal. The Yankees got some cash from the Indians and only gave up a PTBNL for Wood, who struggled mightily as the Indians closer. However, in 24 games for the Evil Empire, Wood put up a 0.69 ERA and 0.4 WAR (although, again, his peripherals suggest he was lucky – he had an insanely low 0.228 BABIP and a 98.1% LOB%, but still).
I’ll be more brief on the rest, but you get my point: this can work out for the team that gets the reliever.
Matt Capps to the Twins, 2010: 27 games, 16 saves, 2.00 ERA, 0.6 WAR
Will Ohman to the Marlins, 2010: 17 games, 3.00 ERA, 0.2 WAR
Kyle Farnsworth, 2005, 2008, 2010 – 2 of his 3 deadline deals (2005, 2010) worked out, putting up 0.3 WAR each time. The other one (2008) was -0.1 WAR, so he averaged about 0.17 WAR. But I doubt anyone would argue that he’s as good as K-Rod.
Octavio Dotel to the A’s 2004 – Granted, this trade happened on June 24th, but Dotel ended up posting 0.9 WAR for the A’s that year. His other trades have been less effective (0.2 WAR in 2007, -0.1 WAR combined in 2010).
Has anyone done any work on relievers pre- and post-ASB, in general?
There’s plenty of evidence that suggests most relievers show little consistency season to season which is why high-priced multi-year contracts are always such a gamble. I’m curious if relievers tend to do consistently well within a season, on average.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Value for relievers
Also, I have this gut feeling that most of the statistical measures have a tough time quantifying the value of a relief pitcher. (NOTE: I prefaced this by saying it’s a gut feel – I have neither the time or patience to really dig into the mathematics right now, and I definitely have the hubris to just go ahead with my gut feel and assume I’m right!).
Look at it this way – the Crew have 70 games left this year. Let’s make some very broad sweeping assumptions, and then evaluate what the possible effect of having K-Rod pitching over, say, K-Loe might really be. OK, of the 70 games, I’ll say that said RP might appear in 40 maximum (K-Loe has appeared in 46 of 92 games so far this year, K-Rod only 42, so this seems like the absolute high end). For the sake of simplicity, I’ll assume 1 IP per game, so 40 IP. Of those 40 IP, I’ll make the assumption that 30 of them are in very high leverage situations (within +/- 1 run late). This is an arbitrary assumption, but seems like the ABSOLUTE maximum that would be possible.
So, we have 30 IP to work with. I’ll just use FIP for no particular reason – K-Rod’s for the last 2 years is ~2.75 (around 2.96 career) so I’ll use that, and K-Loe’s is ~3.6 in the last 2 years (4.29 career, but much of that was a long time ago). I’ll use 3.75 for K-Loe just to make it easy. So, there’s a 1 run differential in FIP between the two.
Over our 30 IPs, a 1 run FIP (or ERA or xFIP or whatever) equates to a difference of a little over 3 runs. Doesn’t sound like much, huh? I have no idea how to calculate WAR, but I would imagine that a 1 run difference in FIP (or ERA) over 30 IPs would not be above, say, 0.4 WAR difference, right?
HOWEVER – let’s think about this in real terms. If all 3 of those runs happened in tie game and/or games that were close enough that 1 run made a difference (assuming that there are 3 separate games with 1 run difference between K-Rod and K-Loe, instead of say, 1 game with 3 runs different), you could really be talking about a 3 GAME difference in win-loss record, not 0.4.
Now, I understand that a reliever giving up a run in a tie game should not get -1 WAR for that game – that’s not what the statistic is for. I’m just saying that I think that WAR and some other stats COULD maybe underestimate the impact of a really good relief pitcher in terms of actual W-L record of a team.
Feel free to have fun hacking apart my entirely shoddy analysis, but the moral is this – this trade could be a BIG deal if K-Rod is content enough and pitches as he should.
Or you could lose one game by 4 runs instead of 1.
I still like the deal though.
I actually saw Prince's family on plain to Orlando in May
His children for being so young were very well behaved also I was very jealous of the head phones they were rocking lol
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
sigh plane not plain I really wish you could edit your own comments sorry
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
Should've just stuck with it
I’m sure there is some flat expanse of land bordering Orlando.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
All Star game
Did anyone else catch one of the FOX announcers basically apologizing for the AL losing by saying it’s because CC and Verlander weren’t pitching?
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
by SAE on Jul 13, 2011 10:43 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I didn't hear that part
but it wouldn’t surprise me. Sounds like something Joe Buck would say.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Thought I heard it during one of the later innings
but the other announcer didn’t really respond to it so it was kind of a throwaway line.
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
Buck had to backtrack somehow.
In the pregame he said something to the effect of “It’s obvious the AL is the better team.” I don’t know to whom that should have been obvious, but he was bound to it for the whole game. This is why PBP announcers should leave the editorial at home in a national broadcast.
by mpbMKE on Jul 13, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
McCarver also referred to Prince as Cecil after the game.
Berman, Buck, McCarver – ironic how three terrible baseball guys get to call the sport’s All Star Game.
by MillerParkSouth on Jul 13, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's just ridiculous
This is your job. At least get the names right, good lord.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
Joe Buck has said he doesn't enjoy baseball.
fka "warwick5s"
by DEUCE SLUICE on Jul 13, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
there was something along those lines in the hr derby too
I can’t remember who they were talking to – Andrew McCutchen, I think? – but they asked him if being around Ortiz/Cano/Gonzalez was essentially the most exciting thing that could possibly happen to him. I hate that they make it seem like getting to be around players from those two teams is an exceptional privilege – he plays in the same league at the same level as those guys do.
by pauldietrich on Jul 13, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
per McCalvy
RRR says both K-Rod and @JohnAxford will close, and both will set-up. I’ll have a story with his comments on Brewers.com.
I am too drunk to taste this chicken.
by ThroughBeingCool on Jul 13, 2011 1:34 PM CDT reply actions
The one thing I forgot
Was that Roenicke would absolutely mess this up and make it as complicated as possible.
Doug didn’t get the memo that you can’t go “all-in” with a train wreck managing the squad.
Get a ife broseph
The good news for the RRR haters
is that if this is true, you’ll get to see Dale Sveum manage his 2nd Brewers postseason. Because there’s no way Attanasio allows it to happen, and we know he’s gotten involved and had managers fired before when the future of the club was on the line.
I don't like RRR
I also don’t want the team to be in a situation where they are so desperate they feel the need to fire a manager, so I hope this somehow works.
Get a ife broseph
W-T-F
When do we get to fire his ass?
I guess we wait for details in that maybe he’ll be using match-ups and only selectively have K-Rod close. K-Rod would have a lot more experience against NL East opponents, for instance.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Oh God
Stop scaring me.
“We went with K-Rod because Player X was 0-5 against him and 1-2 against Axford. He just left that fastball over the plate, unfortunate to lose that game.”
Get a ife broseph
Holy mother of God.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Jul 13, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Any time you can replace your lights out closer with a worse option, you have to do it
I mean, look at all the great playoff teams that had 2 RHP split closing duties. Its a no-brainer.
Get a ife broseph
Look at it this way
You have one of the easiest RR Stole My Baseball posts, ever. I suggest citing the Red Sox “bullpen by committee” catastrophe. I don’t know what the stats were like, but the shellacking they took in the media is almost enough on its own to qualify it as a failure.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
It's like I said a couple weeks back:
it’s almost like RRR is TRYING to give us content at this point. I feel like I should send him an eCard explaining that I’ll happily write faux-Tom Haudricourt nonsense for the rest of the year if he’d just start making better decisions.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
If there's $17.5 MM on the line
I’m sure that either RR will get the message, or K-R’s deal will be restructured to make it possible, or technically it will be true but not in equal quantities.
by nullacct on Jul 13, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the bigger concern
is now you have two closers trying to adjust to set up roles instead of just one.
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
I guess we'll just need to have the lead going into the 9th every day
So there’s enough work for everyone.
I'm all for 5-6 save opportunities per week
Ax saves 2 then gets a day off and K-rod saves the 3rd.
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
Is it really that different?
If they go out every time with the goal to not give up any runs, does it really matter if it’s the 8th or 9th?
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
by sjlee on Jul 13, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It shouldn't be different, no
But closers are a different breed. Although maybe I’m confusing setting up with coming in for a non-save opportunity. Some closers seem to let their guard down in that situation and get tagged.
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
Axford isn't veteran-y enough apparently
Greinke: "It’s not about the guacamole itself. I just don’t want to let them win."
Ok, as long as the setup works like this:
K-Rod will close when Ramon Hernandez is due up to bat.
John Axford will close in all other situations.
by KittenMittons on Jul 13, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 15 recs
You win the thread.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
Nothing like taking something simple and making it difficult.
by Bernie's Mustache Wax on Jul 13, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
I like that as the slogan of the 2011 Brewers
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Jul 13, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brew Crew Ball - Where we Watch the Milwaukee Brewers Take Something Simple and Make it Difficult
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
by ecocd on Jul 13, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
I don't really like this idea, and RRR's bullpen management hasn't given me confidence that he won't bungle this, but...
This could end up being a pretty good scenario if used right. Obviously, we should never have a tired closer, for one. And for two, this could give RRR more freedom to play matchups with K-Rod and Ax. If a bunch of free swingers are up in the eighth, put Ax in. If it’s a bunch of guys who crush fastballs but have trouble with breaking stuff, pitch K-Rod. Again, I don’t trust the Brewers’ coaching stuff to be this smart about it, but it’s not ipso facto a bad thing.
As for K-Rod’s vesting option, I’m not worried. Ax has finished 35 of the Brewers’ 92 games so far – 38%. At that rate, if you split those duties down the middle, each guy finishes 13 games the rest of the way. K-Rod would have to pretty much take over the closer role to hit that option.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Excellent use of ipso facto,
but as you said and said well: I’m worried about this decision chiefly because of the person who’s going to be implementing it.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
Axford has better breaking stuff
K-Rod’s main out pitch is his change.
As long as Axford’s control stays good and Ramon Hernandez isn’t at the plate, I’m having a hard time envisioning a situation where K-Rod would be a better option than Axford.
Get a ife broseph
Yeah, I don't know much about K-Rod's stuff - those were mostly hypotheticals.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
In theory, this would actually be great
1 run game in the 8th against the meat of the order – bring in Axford and let K-Rod deal with the next inning.
3 run lead and Axford has gone back to back days – Bring in K-Rod.
They could really use having K-Rod as a means to get Axford in high leverage situations. We all know it won’t happen that way though.
Get a ife broseph
That's what I was thinking.
If it means Ax can face 2-3-4 in the 8th and K-Rod gets 5-6-7 in the 9th, that seems like a good situation to switch them.
I think it's a really bad idea to confuse roles like that.
Axford has been the closer and has been outstanding. There is no reason to mess with that. If Ax starts struggling, fine, you’ve got a great back up for him.
For your health!
My thoughts right now on the whole thing
It’s just Roenicke trying to throw doubt into the minds of his opponents, that’s all. Axford is the closer, Roenicke is just trying to bluff the opponent, and that’s how I choose to see it until Rodriguez actually gets a save opportunity.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
by -JP- on Jul 13, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like strategy breakdown, but I also don't have much faith in Roenicke to approach it that way.
Axford closing was an element of the team that I actually trust. It seems to work for him and it works for the team. Why split it? It won’t appease anyone if they actually have issues with their roles. If KRod is that desparate to get 11 more saves than he is going to be pissed about splitting any saves. If KRod wants to get his option he isn’t going to get there, so he will pissed about splitting. If he is going to be pissed off about not being the closer, than this situation isn’t going to be good.
I like the trade because it actually makes Runnin’ Rons decision making simpler.
by Bernie's Mustache Wax on Jul 13, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm not crazy about it in the first place
As Calvin and Hobbes once put it: A good compromise leaves everybody mad.
All I’m saying is that if our manager were, say, Joe Maddon, and he said something like this, I might actually be kind of excited about it.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Even if it was....
“Axford is the main guy but if he is a little gassed we will go KRod to keep everyone fresh” I would have more faith.
by Bernie's Mustache Wax on Jul 13, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
That would have been a wonderful response.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Do we have the actual response yet?
So far, I just see the tweet above about an upcoming story with RRR’s comments and we’re just assuming the worst.
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
by SAE on Jul 13, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, granted.
It could be much more nuanced response. The word split just gave me convulsions.
by Bernie's Mustache Wax on Jul 13, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
And then we can overanalyze the article
Really, it only matters how it plays out in practice.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
by ecocd on Jul 13, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The juicy bit
In a telephone conversation Wednesday afternoon, Roenicke said he intends to use both Axford and Rodriguez in save situations and both in setup situations. The reason is twofold: Axford has been exceedingly successful since taking over Milwaukee’s closer role last May, and Rodriguez becomes exceedingly expensive if he finishes 21 more games this season and kicks in a $17.5 million option for 2012. If he falls short of that total, the Brewers can buy out Rodriguez’s option for $3.5 million.
So, RRR is defending the decision to still let Axford have a few saves now that we have the Great Closer K-Rod. Awesome.
by The Left Button on Jul 13, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe he's just trying to preempt all the OV/Joe Morgan-type second-guessing
“Hey, the Brewers have the guy with the all-time single season saves record! Why is Axford pitching in the ninth!?!”
Remember, just because we here at BCB pay attention to things like WAR, FIP, etc., doesn’t mean that crusty old members of the BBWA and OV posters do….
by Brew Angel on Jul 13, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
'The masses' seem to like Axford
so I’d doubt they’d need placating, but even if so, a good baseball-y “Axford is our guy” line would do the trick.
It also seems like a dangerous line to take with the option situation. If Axford and K-Rod are sharing the job and Axford struggles even a little and Rodriguez doesn’t, it’ll be hard to sell having Axford out there instead once the GF start adding up.
by The Left Button on Jul 13, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
To me this is just foolish. It's Axford's job, he's been better at it than Rodriguez, why would he mess with that?
It’s just going to create confusion.
For your health!
Forgot how much
Roenicke can screw things up.
by bklynbrewcrew on Jul 13, 2011 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I will refuse to believe he's that dumb till I see it happen
For your health!
by menchkins on Jul 13, 2011 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I find it interesting that RR is only defending why he'll continue to use Axford as a closer
He said nothing to indicate why he’d use K-Rod in save situations.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Running the numbers, a split shouldn't vest his option
Barring an injury to Axford (one of the reasons to make this move, actually), the Brewers aren’t likely to have more than 40 or so closer situations over the rest of the season. A 50-50 split (ugh) would still mean K-Rod won’t vest his option.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
But save situations aren't the only time you get a game finished.
It’s virtually any time he pitches the ninth, or the eighth in a road loss, or the final inning of extras.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
Still seems unlikely though
The Brewers have 70 games left and a closer appearing in even just 50% of games is a high number (that’s 81 appearances over an entire season). So if 35 total GF is high, it’s going to be hard for K-Rod to hit 21 unless he get’s the majority of the final innings over Axford.
Still dumb to unnecessarily platoon closers though.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
Remember, RRR's main goal is keeping his players happy.
I’m guessing K-Rod gets chances to close in an effort to keep Axford rested, but he will come nowhere near his 55 GF.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
by tcyoung on Jul 13, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
There's no way Melvin would let RR make a $17.5MM mistake
My real worry is something along these lines

by nullacct on Jul 13, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
You forgot to add a bubble that says...
or I’ll kick his ass.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
oh no's
my wife loves stetter
"This one means 'Kill Kirk!!!!'... And also, 'hallelujah'... Depending on the context."
by trippingandy on Jul 13, 2011 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
he's "cute"
she has a cousin who used to work for the Sounds that got in contact with Mitch and got him to sign a ball for her. Obv, it got lost in the mail. Last time anything gets mailed “Care of the Milwaukee Brewers”
"This one means 'Kill Kirk!!!!'... And also, 'hallelujah'... Depending on the context."
by trippingandy on Jul 13, 2011 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
After the article posted today about Axford and K-Rod potentially sharing duties...
You may want to see if you can use this from the Mets blog (click on the pic for the link):
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
By the way, I'm completely aware that the Brewers have no desire for that option to lock in.
However, if K-Rod is used in game finishing scenarios often enough, we may get nervous and want to know.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
It's not going to happen though, not even worth worrying about.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
We should put
Tressel’s sweater vest on this picture and remove a piece each time he gets a save, Major League style.
Retro uniforms: 3-0 in July
One wonders if this is what Melvin had in mind when he traded for K-Rod...
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Bah...
I’m still 100% they don’t let the option vest, but that’s really annoying for Axford who has been one of the best closers in baseball this season.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
Agreed.
Regardless of your opinion on the deal now, can we all agree that this will be a terrible move if the Brewers end up letting his option vest?
Now that's great tasting chicken!
Worse case scenario...
They’ll use him finish 20 games, and then let someone else close the rest of the season.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
In which case the union would file a grievance on K-Rod's behalf, and win.
by Cheeseandcorn on Jul 13, 2011 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Has there been a precedence for this?
With only 32 home games left, they could easily justify this by saying that they didn’t want to overwork him.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Ignore my part about 32 home games
I have no idea what I was thinking.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Okay, ignoring my previous post...
My initial question still stands… has there been a precedence for this?
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Worst Case Scenario is Axford gets hurt, or falters, forcing them to use KRod in the 9th.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
Good point
Although I still think the team could get around having him finish 21 games.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Then it's a horrible deal
But I don’t think Melvin can logistically take on that salary next year (even if he wanted to).
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
In case anyone missed this
When there is a scuffle in Ireland, there’s no need to specifically mention in the news story that alcohol was involved
Maybe the Royals can pick him, Davis and Bush up
Yost can try to bring the band back together in KC.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
nooooooooo
and here I thought the worst thing that could happen to me today was the rearview mirror falling off my car…
i saw it coming, sort of, the June he had + the Rangers having 8 zillion pitchers and pitching prospects in the org didn’t do anything for his chances. well if Thomas Diamond could pick up a job after getting released with the sort of 2011 he was running McClung can too
Tony Plush has given his take on it.
From his Twitter feed:
Last week, when Plush was recounting his vision of the team in the desert, he left out an important detail. Then, it was only confusing.
After we passed the sign denoting the halfway point of our journey, we came upon a mustache floating above the dusty scrub.
It was not a creepy mustache, rather one that was full and lustrous. It was gray and looked wise, as far as mustaches ever can.
It rose beyond us and spoke in a booming voice: "A Rod and a Plush shall deliver you." Then the sand swirled, and it vanished.
Plush thought little of it at the time, because of course Plush would lead. It is what he does, always and evermore.
But it is now clear what the mustache meant by "a Rod." It was speaking of a K-Rod. A K-Rod from a distant coast.
Plush will never again doubt the Great Mustache in the Sky. It looks down from above, all-powerful, lording over its Plushdamental domain.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
by -JP- on Jul 13, 2011 3:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Oh, the @Tony_Plush twitter
For a moment, I was like “That did not come from Morgan’s twitter account. He hasn’t tweeted anything on K-Rod yet”
Here's the McCalvy article
Though I’d suggest not reading it unless you’re looking for a little late afternoon aggravation.
by The Left Button on Jul 13, 2011 4:43 PM CDT reply actions
i want everyone with a quote in this article to give me 20 laps
and then take a punch to the face.
i'm fighting all the french people i can find. happy cinco de mayo!
by sowingwildoats on Jul 13, 2011 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I know how to put an end to this...
Mark A. just needs to tell RRR: “If your stupid closer by committee system results in K-Rod’s option vesting, you owe me 18 million dollars.”
by uwbadgers on Jul 13, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I am going to refuse to believe that Roenicke is that stupid.
I am now sticking my fingers in my ears and shouting LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU! LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
For your health!
Hopefully Ron was just saying all this so K-Rod thought he had an open mind coming into their meeting
And then in the meeting he pulls some jedi mind tricks to convince K-Rod to love his new role. “The 9th is not the inning you are looking for.”
by uwbadgers on Jul 13, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have Kotsay sit in on the meeting then.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
Nope
Remember when Boggs was up?
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
You don't need to see Boggs play...This is not the outfielder you're looking for... you can go about your business...move along
Yep…. gotta agree with you there and go with Kotsay.
For your health!
Another update
Ken_Rosenthal Source: #Brewers get almost $6M in K-Rod deal. #Mets pay slightly less than half of remaining $4.9M, responsible for $3.5M buyout.
"PLUSH ALERT: THERE WAS AN UNTUCKING AT FENWAY!"
Last game of the year.
Brewers vs. Pirates
Top of the ninth. Tied at 3-3. K-Rod has finished 20 games during the season. Neil Walker leads off. Ron checks his scouting report. Neal has gone 1-5 vs. Axford in his career, BUT K-Rod once struck out Neal in a charity softball game. Vesting be damned. You have to go with the numbers.
by Bernie's Mustache Wax on Jul 13, 2011 6:42 PM CDT reply actions
Not so fast.
As K-Rod comes in, Mark Attanasio leaps out of his seat and runs to the dugout, where he yells at Ron Roenicke. Roenicke, realizing what he has done, immediately calls to the bullpen and gets Axford warming. After K-Rod gets the first batter out, Roenicke has an extended meeting at the mound with K-Rod. As soon as batter #2 is out, Roenicke goes to the mound and pulls K-Rod for Axford.
Axford comes out and shuts the door. Brewers go on to the playoffs, MLBPA goes on to file a grievance.
Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector
by -JP- on Jul 13, 2011 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How is this for an effect of the K-Rod trade?
It’s obviously a reminder to the guys that the front office is 100% behind them, but the timing of it happening right before an 11-game road trip could very well be the spark to turn things around. If they do well enough on this road trip, it will give them the confidence to continue that going forward too.
The Brewers at Miller Park: "ALL WE DO IS WIN, WIN, WIN NO MATTER WHAT"
The Brewers on the road: "all we do is lose, lose lose, no matter what..."
Good Point
Could be a small part of why they pulled the trigger so soon. Every team wants to come out of the all star break strong, and the Brewers needed something to change in order for that to happen. Who knows, maybe this is the change they need to turn around their road woes.
That's a very interesting idea
Changing the chemistry a little (by addition and not subtraction) could stir things up just a tiny bit for the road trip and shake them out of their jinx.
Wish they had a new SS before the trip.
Maybe they can sneak Tulo out in one of their suitcases as they’re leaving town.
For your health!











































