Shakeup in the Batting Order
by Dan Berman on Jul 16, 2011 4:51 PM CDT
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Manager Ron Roenicke took the first steps to try to get the team going on the road by shaking up the lineup for tonight's game against the Rockies. It's a bold move, moving Rickie Weeks from leadoff to fifth and Corey Hart to first.
As I wrote yesterday, the Brewers needed to do something to end their horrid road play. I think this is a good step. Moving Weeks into a spot where there's more chance drive in runs and Hart is speedy enough to be effective at the top of the order.
Roenicke also made a change at shortstop, moving Josh Wilson into that spot for Yuniesky Betancourt. It'll be interesting to see if the change stabilizes the defense on the left side. I wonder if Wilson will be able to get to more balls thereby taking some pressure off Casey McGehee at third.
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my comment from Rob’s post applies here as well.
Ugh, Betancourt
by theBrouhaha on Jul 16, 2011 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Yeah,
I saw the comment and your right because 4 of the last 7 is too many.
Plus, this is better suited to be a FanShot.
"Had a dream I was king, I woke up, still king"
-Marshall Mathers
by BlackPack-fan on Jul 16, 2011 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
although this probably belongs simply as a comment in the game or pregame thread
Every man must believe in something, I believe I'll have another drink.
I like it,
Mainly putting in Wilson for Betancourt. Yuni can still be the main starter but let’s give Wilson some more reps, and shake up the lineup. And swtiching Rickie or Hart seems like an OK move I guess.
"Had a dream I was king, I woke up, still king"
-Marshall Mathers
I've wanted to move Rickie out of the leadoff spot for a while
He’s got too much power to bat ahead of the OB% guys.
Shaking up the batting order they way they did is stupid.
If they had moved Fielder up I would have thought it might be a good idea. Moving Weeks down 4 spots and giving him fewer PA while hitting Kotsay #3 is insanely stupid.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Since the plan obviously was made while Braun was healthy...
How do you feel about it with Braun in the lineup?
Giving Hart and Morgan more PA than Weeks is borderline criminal.
The difference between #1 and #5 is about 80 PA over a season about 35-40 for the rest of this season. Basically, would you like Hart to bat for Weeks for every single PA for half a month?
Fielder, despite not having any protection, is having arguably his best year as a MLB player. Put Hart 5th. This “putting Weeks in an RBI spot” is nonsense. Weeks, Morgan, Braun Fielder, Hart is a good top of the order. If they want to take advantage of Braun and Fielder getting on base move them up the order. DPR’s move to make things better is to take guys off of the bases in front of Braun and Fielder. How much sense does that make?
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
I think you're exaggerating things a bit.
For one thing saying it’s like Hart batting for weeks for a half month is a bad analogy. It’s more like Hart batting for Weeks in one PA every 2-3 days. Also, you are acting like Hart is just awful. When actually this season he and Rickie have almost identical OBP. The bigger difference in their stats is SLG, which is why it makes sense to put Rickie in a position with men on base.
The way you are arguing it, every team should just bat their top 3 players 1-3 in the lineup so they get the most plate appearances possible. There’s a reason teams don’t do that.
Teams whould bat their top 3 guys in the top 4 spots of the order.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
By the way, I don't really care all that much what Weeks and Hart have done this year.
Weeks is much much better at getting on base than Hart. Has been for a while and should be expected to in the future. Quick career OBP, .333 vs .354. Add in that Weeks usually has a bigger OBP/BA split and Weeks is the prototypical lead off guy according to the book.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
If the book says a leadoff hitter only has to get on base, then yes.
Weeks strikes out way too much to be the perfect leadoff hitter. But, we also have someone who is literally the definition of a leadoff hitter for the first time in years in Morgan. Weeks’ power is wasted batting leadoff, and now that we have a reasonable replacement for him, he needs to be batting in an RBI position. Now, why Morgan isn’t hitting 1, I have no idea, but baby steps I guess.
The problem hasn’t been the first 4 guys in the lineup, it’s been the bottom. Moving Weeks down makes the offense slightly less top heavy, while also utilizing the tools he has better. Not to mention since Prince has a .421 OBP, it would be nice to have someone behind him who can capitalize on him being on base.
The Book says that getting on base with a walk or single is the same.
Strikeouts also matter less since there are fewer people on base for the leadoff hitter. Try reading some different baseball books that are not based on the usual baseball dogma.
If we want to take advantage of Fielder’s OBP we need to move him up the order not move a good hitter down the order. Moving Weeks down the order splits up our best hitters. The best way to score runs is to bunch as many hits and walks as possible together and give more PA to better hitters.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Am I wrong in saying that our 3 best hitters are Weeks, Fielder, and Braun
So, wouldn’t we be actually moving them together? And I understand that a single and a walk are the same, but a HR with no one on and a HR with Prince on are not the same. Whatever, agree to disagree I guess, but the Brewers definitely needed to shake something up, and so far it looks like a pretty good move.
For a leadoff hitter walks and singles are the same
But you don’t want a leadoff guy that strikes out 100 times. You want someone that works the count and exposes the pitcher’s repertoire. Weeks does this, mostly; more importantly he hits for power, and that power is wasted hitting ahead of someone with equal or better speed and ability to get on base and much less power (Morgan).
So you flip Morgan and Weeks.
You don’t drop Weeks 4 spots in the order and put a worse player at the top of the order like DPR did. Then DRP just subs in Kotsay at #3.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Hart is better towards the top of the lineup for some reason and Weeks is hitting well in the 5 spot (so far)
Just sayin’
For your health!
The idea that hitters hit better in certain spots is in the minds of fans. The only spot that probably makes a difference in in front of the pitcher.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
As much as I hate to disagree, because I think the shakeup was a good thing
I was surprised to find out his career splits show very similar numbers in the top and middle of the order (the only places he’s hit enough for the numbers to really be significant.) Still, I think having someone like Rickie in the position that most often has men on base (around 50% of the time) in the Brewer’s order is a pretty smart move.
Also, as a caveat to that...
I think it’s pretty hard to draw any conclusions from Corey’s numbers since he’s been such a streaky hitter, and from year to year hasn’t been very consistent.
I will say, that I think to say "The idea that hitters hit better in certain spots is in the minds of fans. " Is a bit of a generalization. I guarantee almost everyone hits better in front of Prince Fielder than in front of Yuni B. There’s no way that it is only in the minds of the fans.
because he's such a streaky hitter and seems to change from year to year I focused on the splits from this year.
This year he is WAY better when he bats near the top of the order than when he bats lower. There are a pretty similar number of at-bats to compare this year.
I don’t know why this is the case but if you’re managing the team it would seem foolish to just dismiss this as a statistical anomaly. Baseball is a mental game, maybe it’s as simple as he THINKS he’ll hit better there so he does. I don’t know but if I were RR I would put people where they have been succeeding in the batting order.
Just me.
For your health!
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree, this year he is much better.
I was under the impression that it had been a trend throughout his career, but I guess I was wrong. Also, Cooper seemed irritated the last time I tried to use this years stats, so I was trying to stick to career just for him.
Fact is, Brewers are 2-0 with the new lineup, and until I see Corey mess up a few high leverage situations, I’m not too worried about him stealing 1 at bat from Rickie every 2-3 days.
If a hitter doesn't get any decent pitches to swing at, he won't hit very well.
Pitchers change their approach to a batter depending on who’s hitting next in the lineup.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Possibly in certain situations.
Possibly.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
Generally I don't believe that
guys as talented as Fielder and Braun are going to get pitched to unless they are followed by a guy like Fielder or Braun. Weeks is good, but not that good. We are probably going to see Fielder walked to face Weeks.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
You're just repeating my argument for why Weeks should bat 5th.
I’m not under the illusion that anyone will truly protect Prince. My point is, if they are going to walk Prince, I’d like to see Rickie coming up to the plate rather than Corey.
Also, more to the point of the hitters do better in certain spots discussion
You make it sound like you don’t believe it just because Braun and Fielder will basically always be pitched the same. I don’t believe that’s true, but I won’t argue that.
The point is, guys like Hart will be pitched drastically different depending whether they are in front of Braun or someone like Mcgehee. Do you not think there will be a difference in pitching philosophy in those two situations?
They are going to pitch Hart the same no matter who is behind him. Sliders low and away unless he shows he can lay off of them. It may have been true in the old days before massive amounts of scouting and video guys would get pitched differently because of who was behind them. Now teams know how to get each hitters out and know how to pitch to every single guy. They are not going to give a guy something to hit if they think theyy can get him out. Obviously there are some very specific situations where they may pitch around a guy like bases loaded. Those times are very few and far between. Nothing to build a lineup around.
If you want somebody good behind Fielder to take advantage of his OBP, move him up the order. Don’t give more PA to a worse hitter. Over the course of a season it will make a difference. Possibly a very big difference.
Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.
I still disagree with the fact that Hart won't get pitched differently in front of Braun
On a 3-2 count, pitchers are going to be less willing to throw him a slider low and away and risk missing the plate and walking him if Braun is coming up than if Yuni’s coming up. The fact is, teams know how to pitch every single guy, but if a proven superstar is coming up, they are far less willing to take risks with their pitch selection.
And okay, let’s say you move Fielder up, do you also move Braun up with him? Would you be okay with Morgan, Braun, Fielder, Weeks, or is it still criminal to give Morgan more at bats than Weeks?
I guarantee that if Fielder or Braun were hitting ahead of the pitcher or Yuni
that they’d get pitched around/walked much more than now.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
Because Braun is out
If Braun is out, then you act as if Kotsay is the starter. You don’t just sub him in for Braun in the lineup just because he’s playing LF. That’s what Yost did, and everyone in the world except him knew it was stupid.
Why in the world would you not bat Rickie 3rd and bump Kotsay down when Braun is out if you subscribe to traditional lineup mindsets?
This
No reason whatsoever to bat Kotsay that high up in the lineup. Obviously if Kotsay comes in replace Braun, it’s a different story, but no reason to start Kotsay in the #3 spot in the lineup.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
save your Yost references
if casey was hitting im sure he wouldve moved him in, but prince needs protection…
and batting kotsay in front of prince would typically result in better pitches for kotsay.
its temporary.
booyakasha!
Better pitches for Kotsay
Doesn’t mean better results from Kotsay. His stats line this season in the #3 spot in the order… .111/.100/.111
Yes, obviously it is temporary while Braun is out, but that’s no excuse for putting Kotsay so high up in the lineup. Fielder hasn’t been getting much protection in the lineup this season, yet is having a great season. Besides, if you’re dead set on keeping Weeks in the #5 spot, there are better options than Kotsay in the #3 spot… like Lucroy. Heck, I’d even put McGehee there before Kotsay.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
RR has already done it
When Morgan and Gomez were platooning in CF, if Morgan was playing he’s hit #2, if Gomez was playing Hart was #2. Not to mention yesterday when McGehee was out, Wilson hit #2.
Here are two more…
Manuel
When Utley was on the DL, he had Polanco hitting #3.
LaRussa
Yesterday Holliday didn’t start, so Berkman hit #4.
When Pujols was on the DL, he had Holliday hitting #3 and Berkman hitting #4.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
thx for the DL references
but batting kotsay for two days in the three hole is different that shaking up the batting order, ie when utley is on the dl for a quarter of the season….
everybody makes minor adjustments…
aaaaah, I gotta go!!
Perhaps you missed...
LaRussa
Yesterday Holliday didn’t start, so Berkman hit #4.
Besides, who said anything about “shaking up the batting order” while Braun was out. Having Weeks hit #3 instead of Kotsay would have been a “minor adjustment” and a much better alternative.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
lets bat pitchers 8 bc larussa does, errr....
protect kotsay in the three hole instead of having a giant line-up hole 5 thru 9.
whatever larussa does, RR should follow…
id love to see RR do a drunken alphabet backwards.
aaaaah, I gotta go!!
I guarantee just about every other MLB manager would adjust their lineup if their #3 hitter was out.
You asked me to show you a manager that shuffles the lineup when a starter is out. I did that.
You want another example? Terry Collins (Mets). When Ike Davis was injured, he bumped Bay up in the lineup. When Wright got injured, they bumped Beltran up in the lineup.
How about you show me another MLB manager that didn’t shuffle their lineup when their #3 hitter was out?
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
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