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Brewers manager Ron Roenicke called Hairston a "plus" center fielder

sure Ron, he of the -39 UZR/150 in CF this season, -3 in OF overall. His career numbers are above average because of a phenomenal 2006 season and an okay 2008.

9 months ago Counsell_2__tiny PagsBrewCrew 22 comments 1 recs  | 

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I'd be okay

if he said “I think he does an pretty good job out there, and we needed his lefty bat in the lineup”

But to say “plus” means better than the average, when he’s actually one of the worst.

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 21, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

only, I'd be better if he said

“a pretty good job”

or do a case study “remember a couple of nights ago when he had the diving catch and the doubling off and threw out a guy at the plate? He did a really great job that game, so I thought I’d give him another shot out there, and I still will”

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 21, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Aug 21, 2011 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just because he made two bad plays last night doesn't mean he's not a good defender.

+7.2 career UZR/150 in CF, +15.5 in the OF overall.

"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder

by SRB on Aug 21, 2011 1:06 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

isn't UZR something that is meant to be used over multiple seasons anyways?

-39 is bad, but UZR is meant to indicate over a longer time-span because most of his years have been better…

by maxximus02 on Aug 21, 2011 2:09 PM CDT reply actions  

see below

{and I think it’s completely different than saying 2 for 10. I’d bet that a 10 AB spell has much less correlation with an overall batting average than 100 innings at a position in a season. Morgan has averaged about .3 PO/inning, so over a 100 inning sample, a CF has 30 opportunities. Assuming that batting and fielding show similar predictive abilities based on the same number of events, comparing 30 AB (and thus 100 inning) chunks is enough, MOST OF THE TIME, to see a trend in a player’s ability.}

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 23, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rating a player based on the number of balls they field is a problem

When the very small difference between a moderately good and moderately bad fielder is less than the tendency of the pitching staff to give up more fly balls than grounders

by nullacct on Aug 24, 2011 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

We’re taking a stat that requires 3 seasons to be statistically significant, cropping out 103 innings this season played for two different teams, ignoring his career numbers, and Roenicke is the idiot?

by Archibaldcrane on Aug 23, 2011 4:00 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

I'm not ignoring his career numbers

and I didn’t say the word “idiot” now did I?

I also wouldn’t have made the judgement as to his fielding ability if I saw his numbers were up-down-up-down-up. He isn’t aging gracefully. Before 2011, he last played CF in 2009 and he was pretty bad that season in center and right. Here are his overall OF numbers from 2004 on
year UZR UZR/150
2004 -3.6 -11.3
2005 10.6 39.3
2006 7.8 31.7
2007 3.8 21.2
2008 2.9 18.1
2009 2.7 18.3
2010 0.3 9.0
2011 -0.6 -3.0

That’s a decrease in UZR every year from his 2nd year peak, and other than a virtual level in 08-09, a decrease in UZR/150 every year. Clearly there’s a trend. If someone’s overall OF numbers are declining like that, and are now negative, CF is the last place on the baseball diamond (or at least in the OF) that you should place him. Basically, I would surmise that as he is aging, his range is decreasing dramatically and range/speed is the primary factor that you look in for your centerfielder.

I used UZR/150 as a proxy so the number of innings played doesn’t make it look like he sucks less than he does – if he was given the opportunity to play more, he would likely provide additional negative value to the team (especially in contrast to what Morgan can provide). It also is sometimes sufficient to see a trend over 150 innings, even if the result does not pass statistical significance (which I’m assuming is arbitrary assigned to be p < .05). I’d hazard the guess that 150 innings, or even 103, is enough to have a p < .4, which for a single player I would argue is most of the time significant. If you’re just going off the measure of correlation, UZR has been shown to be positively correlated in one year, two year, or three year intervals. Yes, the degree of correlation goes up when comparing 3+ year chunks, but the damned numbers are still positively correlated from year to year and thus predictive. I’d imagine that smaller chunks within a year would also be found to be positively correlated, but to a lower extent. Saying that you can’t compare without 3+ years of data is a cop-out. If you want to go that route, compare 2009-2011 to 2008-2010 or 2006-2008. He’s getting worse every year and isn’t as solid of an outfielder/centerfielder as Morgan is by UZR data. Morgan in turn pales in comparison with Gomez.

And further, why is Hairston bumping Morgan out of CF to LF (as happened today)? Morgan has had positive numbers in every season at CF and ever field ever EXCEPT LF this year. I’d agree that the sample size is not significant enough to conclude that Morgan is bad in left, but he’s clearly not as good in left as he has been in right or center, either now or over his career. Hairston has had positive value throughout his career in left, with the exception of a year in which he only played two game-equivalents there.

Perhaps before you give the snarky/witty retort implying that I don’t know what the f*ck I’m talking about (and rec-fishing), perhaps you should look at the numbers yourself or should trust that I might have done a little quick research before I posted a fanshot, but didn’t feel like typing up a fanpost with detailed analysis to tell me what my eyeballs told me with a quick scan of the data. Also, RR was probably given a scouting report on Hairston for this season, probably watched some video of him from this season, so I was pointing out that the numbers say the opposite of what RR’s eyeballs told him or RR is being a bit too much of a “player’s manager” by inventing deluded qualifications for players.

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 23, 2011 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It's a tiny sample size. Even if he's declining there's no reason to conclude that he's a bad outfielder.

Morgan is clearly better though, I agree.

"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder

by SRB on Aug 23, 2011 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with you

and may have been using hyperbole when I said UZR (without the ratio) would make it “look like he sucks less than he does.”

However, my point, and my only point when making a one-sentence-of-my-own fanshot was pointing out there’s insufficient data to conclude that he’s a GOOD (or “plus”) outfielder. One could also argue that based on never having 150 games in a season in the OF, he’s probably bad (or he would have had additional opportunity and innings). Of course, that ignores his career negative batting value which probably accounts for his lack of defensive innings:P

Again, RR shouldn’t have called him “plus.” that is all

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 23, 2011 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, to boil it down...

You’re mad because RR called Hairston a “plus” CF when he actually isn’t one (based on UZR/150 trends)?

Meh… it’s just words and possibly taken out of context since it wasn’t a full quote.

Now, if he actually played Hairston ahead of Gomez (once he gets back)… that’s something to get worked up about.

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Aug 24, 2011 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

But he's playing Hairston ahead of Morgan right now

which is idiotic.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

by Charlie Marlow on Aug 24, 2011 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Defensively, yes

But does the better offense that Hairston provides against LHP offset what he loses to Morgan on defense?

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Aug 25, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

the whole quote was about defense though:P

but yes, that would be a valid reason to give Hairston at least some starts against LHP

by PagsBrewCrew on Aug 25, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm still hopeful that once Weeks and Gomez are back

that JHJ will start getting time at SS.

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Aug 26, 2011 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

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