Wednesday's Frosty Mug
Some things to read while shopping for cupcakes.
Last night we all got a strong reminder of why the Cardinals are occasionally referred to as the Uptight Citizens Brigade. It's relatively likely that three different members of a team in a playoff race will be suspended based on their actions in their 8-7, eleven inning win over the Brewers.
I guess we might as well start with the hit by pitch. Tony La Russa, incensed by a pitch that hit Albert Pujols in the seventh, ordered reliever Jason Motte to throw two pitches at Ryan Braun to lead off the bottom half of the inning. The second one hit Braun, leading to warnings being issued to both sides but no ejections. After the game, La Russa basically confirmed that the pitches were intentional.
Strategically, plunking Braun with Prince Fielder on deck in the late innings of a tie game isn't a decision you'll see made often. Craig Calcaterra pointed out La Russa's glaring lack of logic. The Brewers loaded the bases with none out but failed to score in the inning.
La Russa's actions have sparked a conversation about the proper way to respond. In this morning's edition of Around the NL Central, Rubie makes a strong case for retaliation and perhaps even escalation. Toby Harrmann took the opposing view and stressed the importance of rising above. I'm more inclined to side with the latter, but I can understand the desire for the former. Prince Fielder, for what it's worth, said the team is more interested in winning than fighting.
Pujols remained in the game after being hit by the pitch, but told reporters his status is uncertain for today's game. X-rays on the hand came back negative. Cardinals reliever Kyle McClellan rolled his ankle in the eleventh inning and is also day-to-day.
Strangely enough, 12 hours after the fact I'm finding myself feeling a little bad for Jason Motte. He's pretty likely to be suspended for intentionally hitting Braun, as La Russa admitted that the pitches were thrown to "send a message." But at the end of the day there's a strong chance he only did so because he was ordered by his paranoid manager. He can't be absolved of all blame here, but he's probably going to pay the largest price and he wasn't the root cause of the problem.
Of course, that wasn't the Cardinals' only offense last night. Catcher Yadier Molina, after being called out on strikes, made contact several times with and (unintentionally) spat on home plate umpire Rob Drake, leading to his immediate ejection and almost certain suspension. Molina claims that Drake made contact with him first, but these animated gifs seem to refute that accusation. (h/t @SessileFielder) Dave Brown of Yahoo says Molina is likely to be suspended at least ten games.
And the Cardinals weren't even done there: Before the game they filed a complaint regarding the ribbon board that runs along the Club Level seating at Miller Park, claiming the brightness of the display was changed between Brewer and Cardinal innings at the plate (FanShot). I have no idea if the accusation has any merit, but Rubie Q notes that Tony La Russa complains about similar things frequently enough that it's hard to take his gripes seriously. Jaymes Langrehr of The Brewers Bar compiled a short history of over a dozen La Russa complaints.
Other notes from the field:
- Noted headhunter Takashi Saito has now hit one batter this season. Also, the ball that hit Ryan Braun was traveling 96.5 mph, the 13th fastest HBP in the majors this season. Plunk Everyone has those facts and more.
- The reporter peppering La Russa with questions about the plunking after the game was WTMJ's Gene Matzek, who got out of bed and came back to the park to confront him on the issue.
- Last night's events overshadowed the first career home run for Cardinals pitcher Jaime Garcia, who trotted in 24.02 seconds, and a curtain-call inducing shot for Yuniesky Betancourt, who circled the bases in 21.17.
- Jerry Hairston Jr. went 1-for-6 last night in his first Brewer start, starting in center field and moving to second base late in the game.
- Lance Berkman, Jaime Garcia (who allowed seven runs in five innings) and Daniel Descalso are leading FanGraphs' Star of the Game voting.
- Here's a transcript of Ron Roenicke's postgame comments.
- The Brat won the Sausage Race.
- Yesterday was team photo day.
The Brewers and Cardinals wrap up the series with an afternoon contest today, and Cash Kruth of MLB.com has the preview. After today's game the Brewers get a five day break from the Cardinals' nonsense before facing them again in St. Louis next week.
Last night's loss snapped a seven game winning streak and dropped the Brewers to 40-15 at home. Before the game Howie Magner noted that the team would've been on pace to go 118-44 in a 162 game home schedule.
Meanwhile, the Brewers made a roster move yesterday: They signed lefty reliever Randy Flores, recently released by the Yankees, to a minor league deal (FanShot). Flores has a pulse, major league experience and the ability to throw with his left hand, but that's about the nicest collection of things you can say about him. Lefties have hit a career .275/.345/.435 against him and .290/.380/.508 last season. He'll likely be assigned to Nashville and should slot in behind Danny Ray Herrera on the depth chart.
Baserunning wasn't the Brewers' biggest problem last night, but it's been a relatively significant one this season. At You Know, and That Toby Harrmann has an update on the Brewers' running stats in 2011. They're still significantly below average as a team, but players not named Casey McGehee and Prince Fielder are doing relatively well.
Craig Counsell was used as a pinch runner last night and didn't bat, but that hasn't kept people from discussing his 0-for-45 streak. Jeff Sullivan of Baseball Nation has ten things to know about Counsell's near-record slump. Ron Roenicke publicly defended Counsell again yesterday, saying this among other things:
"I still see a quality Major League player. He's not hanging his head. When he makes an out and he comes back in here, does it bother him? Of course it bothers him. We all feel for him. But I think he's valuable for the stuff he does out there [in the field] and the stuff he does in there [in the clubhouse]."
It's been a pretty good year for a handful of Brewer pitchers, but it's possible Chris Narveson has been 2011's most positive surprise. This week's edition of A Simple Kind of Fan looks at his impressive season.
Call off the search, folks: Lookout Landing has the "most Zack Greinke .gif" of all time.
In the minors:
- The affiliates went 4-1 and Mat Gamel hit two home runs in Nashville's 7-0 win over Round Rock last night. You can read about that and more in today's Minor League Notes.
- Rattler Radio has video highlights of Wisconsin's 2-1 win over Clinton.
- Mass Hass is reporting the Brewers have released pitcher Brae Wright. Wright was a sixth round pick in the 2006 draft but missed the entire 2009 and 2010 seasons following Tommy John surgery.
If you haven't yet, please take a moment to vote in this week's BCB Tracking Poll. It will remain open through the day today and results will be posted tomorrow.
Around baseball:
Angels: Pitcher Jered Weaver (six games) and manager Mike Scioscia (one game) have been suspended after Weaver intentionally threw at a batter on Sunday.
Athletics: Designated reliever Jerry Blevins for assignment.
Mariners: Placed infielder Chone Figgins on the DL with a hip flexor strain.
Orioles: Claimed pitcher Jo-Jo Reyes off waivers from the Blue Jays.
Rangers: Designated reliever Arthur Rhodes for assignment.
Tigers: Designated pitcher David Purcey for assignment.
Arthur Rhodes is another lefty the Brewers could consider, but Toby Harrmann makes a strong case against it: Rhodes is 41 years old, has lost velocity, hasn't actually been all that good against lefties this season (.715 OPS against) and is still owed $1.3 million plus a vesting option for 2012.
Today in former Brewers:
- The B-Ref Blog has a list of 20 active players who have played for eight or more teams. Six of them are former Brewers and three more (LaTroy Hawkins, Jerry Hairston Jr. and Felipe Lopez) are current members of this team.
- Ray Durham recently paid a visit to the Hall of Fame and got excited about a picture of Frank Thomas.
Today in baseball economics: The Pirates are threatening to fade out of contention this week, but they're benefitting financially from their flirtation with relevance. They're on pace to draw slightly less than two million fans this season, up from 1.6 million in 2010.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to measuring busts.
Drink up.
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Comments
This post was too strongly worded
I’m pretty sure TLR is going to file a complaint with MLB about this.
I've already made this promise to Supertramp:
if Tim Dillard is announced as the starting pitcher today, I’m deleting Ron Roenicke Stole My Baseball forever.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Aug 3, 2011 9:50 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I want Loe
Then I want Loe to dare him to charge the mound
by BrewCrewBrian on Aug 3, 2011 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Good call.
And he should bring his f***ing snake to the mound with him.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Aug 3, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The suspension will be 3 games and a fine
A Google search for “bumped ump suspension” seems to indicate inappropriate contact with an umpire is 3 games and a fine. Upon appeal, I assume it will be decreased to 2 games. I’m putting the upper bound at 5 games with a fine; that will be reduced to 4 games after appeal.
MLB has shown it doesn’t give a damn about hitting players. Motte and Larussa will get no suspensions. If Motte does get a 1 game suspension it will be dropped on appeal. I actually think the fact that he was ordered to throw at the guy is part of the reason MLB doesn’t suspend guys for it. Maybe they only suspend guys that appear to have taken matters into their own hand.
Motte’s internal org punishment for not throwing at Braun when ordered to do so would have been far worse than what MLB can dish out. A rock and a hard place to be sure.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
What about guys with neck tattoos?
That should be accounted for, because guys with neck tattoos will do anything.
Get a ife broseph
And spit hit the ump
Intentional or not, Molina put himself in that situation and should be punished accordingly.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
shruggity
I think it’s being blown way out of proportion. He didn’t hit the guy. It’s more about showing up the ump than any intent to harm.
Umps could stand to be taken down a notch or two, anyway. That call was hideously bad.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Hideously bad?
It was slightly outside the strike zone. Calls like that happen tons and tons of times throughout every game.
He sought out to make contact with the ump and did, while spitting in his face.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And he did both multiple times.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
by Kyle Lobner on Aug 3, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Making contact sure, but it wasn't spitting so much as spittle
The spit was a product of him yelling not spitting. It’s not uncommon to have saliva come out of the mouth while yelling. He wasn’t “spitting” at the ump.
And again, he wasn’t trying to injure the guy, just bumping him to get in his face. There was intent to show him up, but not intent to injure. 10 games would be ridiculous.
According to every objective measure the call was terrible. I suppose if that was the strikezone all game, then it’s an overreaction, but from an objective point of view that pitch was more than a few inches inside.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
More than a few inches?
How far inside to you think it was?
Who knows if the spit was intentional, hard to tell with a guy who bumped the umpire twice, had to be restrained by 2 guys and then screamed at him from the dugout after it was over.
Glad he “took the umpire down a notch or two” for having the nerve to get a ball/strike call wrong.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
I can’t ever remember a time when something like this has occurred. I’m not sure how/why it is being defended.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The ump was backing off.
Molina kept coming after him, kept bumping him, even as the guy tried to get out of the way. If you want to get tossed arguing balls and strikes, ok, but if you want to be some kind of tough guy, the banhammer better be coming to get you.
by mpbMKE on Aug 3, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not saying he shouldn't get suspended at all
Does Molina have a history of this? If he’s been suspended for bumping umps 3 times in the past, he might be due for a big suspension. If it’s a first offense, 10 games is way out of line.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
I'm ok with a 10 game suspension
maybe a couple of additional games for being such a tool
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
I don't get why you're trying to be a pragmatist here
don’t you know that we HATE the Cardinals?
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Guys go nose-to-nose with the ump all the time
But you very rarely see that much spit flying at an ump. Just because it wasn’t intentional doesn’t mean you don’t have to take some responsibility for it.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
So if he was arguing with a lisp, does he get more games, too?
He can’t control that.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
If he can't control it, he probably shouldn't be arguing up close with the ump, right?
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'll stop trying to defend the position
Just don’t be surprised when the suspension and fine is in the 3-5 game range.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
As you said above, 3 games or so is typical for bumping an umpire.
But when you factor in:
- multiple bumps
- arguing so close that uncontrolled spit hit the umpire on more than one occasion
- failure to leave the playing area in a timely fashion, including continuing to yell from the dugout well after the ejection
I think you have a case that’s pretty far beyond the typical plane. I can’t remember a recent ump-bumping argument that was this egregious. I think baseball will make an example here.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
Theriot only got 2 games when he grabbed and pushed an umpire out of the way to get to another one
No way Molina gets 10.
I aim to misbehave
Exactly.
Even though I don’t agree with ecocd making excuses for Molina’s boorishness, I think his estimate of the suspension is about right.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep agreed
There’s no defending that douche castle.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
When is the last time MLB tried to make an example of someone?
And wouldn’t the players union have something to say about that, anyway? Aren’t they there, in part, to protect players from unfair treatment just so MLB can get a point across?
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
"unfair" in the sense of "making an example"
not necessarily this case in particular. “Making an example” usually means a disproportionately high or unprecedented punishment.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
the calls were hideously bad consistently for both teams
Molina should have recognized that after being behind the plate most of the night
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
Agreed.
The call was bad, but Molina’s response was comically out of proportion.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say hideously bad.

by MillerParkSouth on Aug 3, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's actually evidence in my favor, I think
His strikezone was being called to favor the outside edge. Count the number of balls that were inside of the strike against Molina. Drake’s strikezone was away from the batters, not inside. That call was terrible.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Ah, right, I had it switched around
My bad. If those aren’t switched, the ump was calling inside on both Righties and Lefties. Maybe it wasn’t a bad call based on his strikezone.
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
So MillerParkSouth's pic
Didn’t account for LHB/RHB switch, it was just overall? We know every ump has a difference strike zone for LHB and RHB. Molina may have been reacting to getting the outside strike all night, but mostly to RHB. I don’t really have the time today to go into as much detail as I usually do on these internet arguments. Sorry. :(
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
It's overall ball and strike calls from the ump's POV
so the called third strike to Molina was in that gray area he’d been calling all night, though it was the worst one of the night.
Looks to me like the Brewers got maybe two more bad calls to go in their favor. Looking at the first game’s chart, the Brewers probably got 3 or so. Statistically significant? Doubt it.
by MillerParkSouth on Aug 3, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
They will get barely anything because of who they are.
LaRussa is a good ol’ boy and will get nothing, Molina is a guy who “plays the game the right way but just lost his temper!” and will get barely anything. If Nyjer Morgan did that to an umpire he would be banned from baseball or something.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
it is amazing just when you think the Cards cannot sink lower
they blast their way to a new low
It will make winning the division that much sweeter
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
by WSB Chris on Aug 3, 2011 9:57 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Bubbaprog, who runs the Mock Session website those gifs come from, is awesome
If you’re not following him on twitter, joining EDSBS gamethreads when he stops in, or regularly checking his anyof his websites (mocksession for videos and links, GIFULMATION for gifs, or 30FPS for real time screen caps of live events) you’re missing out big time. He even takes requests if you’re watching the same game he is.
No, I’m not affiliated with Bubbaprog in any way, just a big fan of his work and it often gets used without proper credit. Just trying to the word out.
I aim to misbehave
by stempke on Aug 3, 2011 9:58 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Constantly on, tons of postivie statements...I don't know, thought that was a pretty common phrase to use?
Get a ife broseph
Because I see the national media giving T-Plush a lot of attention
But it seems to be more of the “Holy cow, look at this guy who’s nuts” variety.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Right, guess I haven't seem them say much negative about him
Sort of like the Brian Wilson stuff. He’s weird as hell but doesn’t really bother me.
Get a ife broseph
Go back to his Nationals days
They’re only loving him now because so far he’s been harmless. The second he loses his cool on a national stage it’ll be back to "this guy is unstable and has a pattern of bad behavior.
I aim to misbehave
Right, he was bad with the Nats, left the situation and has been good
Isn’t that fairly common occurrence in sports?
I understand that there are certainly fanbases that have a justifiable hate of the guy, I don’t really see him as someone who is universally hated. I barely knew anything about him before he got on the Brewers.
Get a ife broseph
A lot of people don't like attention seekers
Nyjer is definitely an attention seeker
I aim to misbehave
A lot of people like attention seekers though, right?
Look at all the celebrities (in sports and out of sports) who are well known and liked because they are attention seekers.
Get a ife broseph
People "like" attention seekers for the same reason that they "like" to slow down and look at an accident on the highway
I aim to misbehave
Sure, if you're only liking someone because you're waiting to see what stupid thing they do next
You’ll be much more quick to turn on them, than if you actually genuinely liked them
I aim to misbehave
by stempke on Aug 3, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
T-Plush is a bat shit crazy guy
But he is our bat shit crazy guy
Or to quote Firefly
“Yeah but she is our witch” ;)
"It's a joke. It's all a joke.
by WSB Chris on Aug 3, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Everyone without a stick up their ass really likes Nyjer Morgan.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
by SRB on Aug 3, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Uh oh, can't have that
He’s a saint and the most entertaining, fun, positive thing in Milwaukee! Burn those who hate him!
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
No, just saying I found him slightly annoying
I tend not to follow people who constantly harp on a specific player that I like. Since this is a Brewer blog, I thought it was fair to let other Brewer fans know.
Sorry if you took that to mean that I think Nyjer is a saint or think his viewpoint of hating Nyjer is wrong. Jeesh.
Get a ife broseph
No, but the prevailing viewpoint at BCB clashes with anyone who dislikes Morgan or his antics
that was the point I was making. Sorry if you got personally defensive. Jeesh.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't speak for the rest of BCB
If you want to discuss the prevailing viewpoint of BCB either start a new post or mention what you are doing in your reply to mine.
Don’t do what you did, its annoying.
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ok, post police
It doesn’t change the fact that folks who don’t like the shit he does get berated and hounded here.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Be cool, fellas
Today is a today for uniting in our undying hatred for the Cardinals.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Just when I thought I could not hate that team more than I already do
They pull thisshit. What a drunken assclown. I really wouldnt mind seeing a rogue foul ball go bouncing around the visitors dugout today, or maybe Counsell loses his grip on a bat and it goes hurtling towards the mound. Just so long as the ribbon bard is illuminated properly, that would be disrespectful.
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
I have placed a call to my guy in the sound booth
asking if it’s possible to turn off the ribbon boards, scoreboard, and lights in the first inning.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
No, this is great.
This is going to be the longest three hours of my life.
Can’t. Wait.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
Bart Scott approves this post.
All is vanity.
by levnclf on Aug 3, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to find a sound byte of that, and use it as a sound on my computer.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok its not as awesome as I remember
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
haha yeah
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
He'll complain that the Brewers idiot - not idiots - fans were cheering louder when the Brewers were at bat, than when the Cardinals were at bat.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
We'd have hit 45 home runs
if the damn ball wasn’t traveling at 9.8 meters-per-second-squared back to the ground!
by mpbMKE on Aug 3, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
No, its when they're in the field
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
does anyone know why Colby Rasmus didn't want to play for this team?
"We have to beat these guys. All they do is (complain) and moan about everything, all of them. I really hate the Cardinals. Compared to the Cardinals, I love the Chicago Cubs. Let me make this clear: I hate the Cardinals" - Brandon Phillips
I can't wait for TLR to try to pin this mess on Colby's dad.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Aug 3, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Toronto is my new favorite AL team
I hope they sign Prince, Rasmus becomes a superstar, and win a World Series in the next half decade or whatever.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
My roommate and I were debating whether Alex Anthopoulos was a wizard or a thief.
We ended up deciding that he was a thieving wizard.
That sounds about right.
He’s a thief when he gets Bautista or Rasmus for nothing, a wizard when he talks people into taking Rios and Wells.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
by SRB on Aug 3, 2011 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
and they play at Busch (league) stadium
Coincidence?
He’s actually underrated, but that’s another can of worms…
by jarlbartar on Aug 3, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
on the other hand, the Milwaukee fans were great yesterday
“JER-RY! JER-RY! JER-RY!!” after one day on the team!
"We have to beat these guys. All they do is (complain) and moan about everything, all of them. I really hate the Cardinals. Compared to the Cardinals, I love the Chicago Cubs. Let me make this clear: I hate the Cardinals" - Brandon Phillips
by JAMOOL on Aug 3, 2011 10:21 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe they were expecting Jerry Springer to pop out of the dugout to mediate the proceedings?
"I agree but dont agree"
by juggernaut400 on Aug 3, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
It's a very chantable name.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
Berkman with an interesting point
There seems to be a running theme here," said Berkman, a newcomer to the feuds. “Because it’s Cardinals-Brewers, Cardinals-Reds, Cardinals-Astros, Cardinals-Cubs. The Cardinals seem to be the common threat in all of these things. I think that kind of emotion and energy is helpful.”
Cards are used to this stuff and obviously seek out to start it, seems like the Brewer players handled it pretty well on their end. We all saw how the incident a few years ago with Yost escalated.
That said, as a fan I’m enjoying the hate and like getting riled up (and wouldn’t be upset if Pujols gets drilled today), but am glad the players seem to be above it.
Get a ife broseph
how about equipment manager
Ugh, Shortstop
So long as the equipment is a folding chair
and he takes it with him when he charges the Cards’ dugout, I’m fine with it.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
Insert witty comment about jock strap
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Before the first pitch
Before Furcal leaves the on deck circle, RRR should calmly walk out to the batters box, take a leak on home plate, turn around, and walk straight to the clubhouse.
I'd rather he did it on TLR's shoes
when they’re turning in lineup cards
Prince: "Brewers will win the World Series and I'll sign a 10-year deal in Milwaukee"
Braun: "Well, I guess there's just one thing to do then..."
by SAE on Aug 3, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Cardinals are the Yankees of the NL
Berkman’s comments are true, but they are the team everyone feels they have a rivalry with (whether real or not) because they are commonly at or near the top of the standings and are always contenders.
There is a legitimate rivalry between the Cubs and Cards, but if you ask Cardinal fans, or players whether one exists between that organization and any other, they probably do not believe so.
I would disagree that they seek out to start these things. Its that their perceived talent, arrogance, success all put a target on their back for being the jerks of the league.
Nope
But there is a legitimate Dodgers/Giants rivalry. Much like Rockie or DBack fans may think there is one with the Giants, there really isnt.
Yes and no
LA couldn’t give a crap about SF, but SF seems to think the world hangs in the balance when the Giants play the Dodgers. But as for team history, the Giants/Dodgers is a good rivalry, but the fans’ perception is way out of whack.
Today is not the day for this.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Aug 3, 2011 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Eh, its a TLR thing
Its not really the “team” as much – if TLR takes another managing gig somewhere else he’ll run into the same hostilities and feelings from opposing fan bases.
Get a ife broseph
Obviously
Are you just hear to argue the Cards/Brewers isn’t a rivalry? If so…why?
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not at all
Just to say that this isnt really a rivalry with anyone,exceptt the Cubs. Berkman talked about the Cards being the common thread in all of the perceived “rivalries”, and my response is that the only true “rivalry” in the sense of the word is with the Cubs, and that the rest of it comes from the historical success of the Cardinal organization.
Berkman never used the term "rivalries."
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Aug 3, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nor did anyone in this thread, the word "rivalry" doesn't come up once
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Even if you take out the term "rivalry"
The basics of the argument still apply.
The fact of the matter is that most fans likely believe there is a rivalry with the Cardinals, when there really isnt. And instances like what happened to Braun last night tend to elevate those issues.
Not at all
But the reason there is a “theme” is that the Cards are the Yankees of the NL (Central) and they are always going to be the most hated team because of their history, and success.
No, they're going to be the most hated team as long as they pull crap like they did last night.
Once they quit that, teams will stop hating them. It’s got little to nothing to do with history or success.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
I know you know that has very little, if anything, to do with it
since the Braves are a much better example of a NL-version of the Yankees, and this type of nonsense doesn’t happen with the Braves year after year after year.
We pull our pants up and do our jobs here.
by Rubie Q on Aug 3, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
No, most fans are pissed at TLR
And dislike the Cardinals.
I’m not sure what the “basics of the argument” are? That the fans don’t dislike the Cardinals? That Berkman is wrong, and most fans like the Cardinals?
Get a ife broseph
You got it. Definitely not a rivalry with the Brewers beyond a division race.
The Reds have been working their way into that discussion, but really it’s just the Cubs.
Heck of a game last night. Your guys, as you all have pointed out, were classy all the way through.
I hope we get to see a good division race with the winner earning it through sublime play, rather than the loser just playing poorly.
(and btw, much of the Redbird fanbase “loves” TLR about as much as you all. I like the guy, but I certainly understand opposing viewpoints.)
Is Jon Jay the new Willie McGee?
Thanks for a polite, reasonable reply.
I certainly buy the idea that the Cardinals don’t hate the Brewers as much as the Brewers hate the Cardinals.
My question is, if the Cardinals don’t care either way about the Brewers, why the multiple cheating accusations and throwing at our guys and everything? Why they gotta be like that?
Also, I know y’all at VEB hate us here, but as I’ve said before, I have a lot of respect for the fact that many of guys can’t stand LaRussa either and liked Rasmus too. Colby was the only Cardinal I really liked, and it was sad to see him leave the way he did.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like this response
I am no Cardinal apologist or TLR one for that matter.
TLR files complaints no matter where he goes, so its not just with the Brewers.
And I too liked Rasmus, and felt that that issue should be the beginning of the end of TLR’s days in St. Louis.
I think there's a good measure of frustration for us this season,
from Albert not being vintage and Waino getting hurt, added to last year’s late-season melt-down in the division, so I think tensions are just a bit high in general, and now there’s a tight division race.
Braun got thrown at because Albert got hit on the hand. Yeah, Saito clearly wasn’t trying to hit Albert, but that’s just the old-school rules. I’m not a fan of them, but they are what they are. I don’t think it’s worth making too much of as far as indicating some big rivalry. The cheating accusations are mild, and due to your huge home/away splits. I suspect if the situations were reversed, the same things would happen. It’s mostly just sour grapes, though.
Braun is mocked a lot because he’s really good, and kind of an easy target (the fashion stuff), but there’s nothing deeper toward him for most of us. There are a number of people over at VEB that like Prince pretty well considering he’s a great player for a division-rival. Nyjer, not so much.
I’m a pretty hardcore gamethreader, and I was checking in on you guys a bit last night. Based on that admittedly small sample size, I’d argue that there’s way more animosity coming from you all than toward you between the two blogs. Check the 5000 combined comments yourself if you don’t believe me:) Not that this is a bad thing. It makes the division race more fun. I guess my only point is that it goes both ways.
And yeah, VEB in general doesn’t like TLR and is pretty upset about the Colby trade.
There are plenty of exceptions at VEB to everything I said. It’s a pretty good-sized community.
Is Jon Jay the new Willie McGee?
You're absolutely right that BCB hates the Cards right now more than VEB hates the Brewers
That’s probably a product of the fact that the Cards have done quite a bit in the last 24 hours to make Brewers fans angry, whereas I can’t remember the last thing the Brewers have done that could reasonably get Cards fans riled up.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Heh. Yeah, that's way up there on the list of goofy reasons to feel animosity.
Is Jon Jay the new Willie McGee?
by a fink on Aug 3, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh, and I'd add that from my perspective, the whole
“The Cards think they’re so high and mighty and moral and good and great” is kind of bizarre. Maybe it’s about TLR, but I don’t think it’s really all that accurate, and if we were a .480 team for the last decade, nobody would notice our culture as being different than anyone else’s.
Is Jon Jay the new Willie McGee?
For Brewers fans, I think
That’s largely about TLR (he’s shown a pretty good deal of moral outrage over the antics of other teams and his own players whom he doesn’t like). Also, a big part of it is the Cardinals’ outrage in 2008 over the Brewers’ untucking.
As for the Cardinals’ national perception, my (not totally thought out) guess is that their reputation is partly a leftover from the days of Ozzie Smith, Jack Clark, Willie McGee, Jack Buck, etc., when the Cards were known as one of the classiest franchises in the league. TLR, too, has long had a reputation of being of the old-school mold (even pre-Cardinals), with a penchant for enforcing “baseball codes” and talking about “respecting the game.” I think that’s a big part of it, too.
by Cheeseandcorn on Aug 3, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah, yeah. I never really thought about the relationship to those 80's teams.
And like I said, I can totally understand TLR getting under your skin.
Anyway, I’m out. Nice talking to you all.
Is Jon Jay the new Willie McGee?
i don't think it has anything to do with the cards win %
there are plenty of perennially successful teams that don’t draw the same animosity. it’s not about wins and losses, it’s about the stuff that comes out in the post-game press conferences. no one else has complained about the lighted ad banner at Miller park, only the Cards. no one else complained about the bullpen mound at Citizen Bank, only the Cards. no one else complained about slippery balls from the Reds, only the Cards. no one else complained about the Brewers untucking their shirts in homage to Mike Cameron’s dad, only the Cards. the list goes on and on and on.
by Foul Tip on Aug 3, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's way easier to just go with the mantra of
“they just don’t like us because they’re jealous” though.
I flagged this as inappropriate
Usually I’m OK with you doing your thing, BTC. But you can screw right off with this bullshit.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
There's something different about the Cardinals
and the animosity goes beyond their history of success. La Russa creates a culture in St. Louis with the constant complaints and accusations. The Yankees are hated mostly because they win with dollars through free agency which goes against America’s affinity for the everyday poor man who lifts himself up by the bootstraps. People hate the Cardinals because of La Russa’s tendency to shift blame whenever they lose; the lights were bad, the bullpen mound is sloped differently, the other guys are stealing signs, that and his smug arrogance. The cardinals are baseball’s version of the moral majority, they seem to think they are the keepers of baseball’s moral compass. It’s very annoying.
by Foul Tip on Aug 3, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Exactly
And he isn’t the only one who has excuses when they lose. Players seem to do it too; Carpenter is one guy that comes to mind, I know he said there was too much smoke from fireworks in Cincinnati and that the balls were different somehow.
by mmueller12 on Aug 3, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought it was being hypocrites that put a target on their back
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
I'll give you credit for creatively hiding your real agenda...
… but this is wildly, wildy wrong.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 3, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Berkman, get out while you still can!
He’s like that kid in the Mighty Duck who went to play for the asshole team.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
by SRB on Aug 3, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
as far as IBB'ing Berkman in the 11th goes
does anyone think not walking him is the correct move?
you have him in a 2-strike count, why just take your chances with Skip with a fresh one?
does anyone know the numbers on this? if it was Holliday on 2nd at the beginning of the AB then I’d just IBB him, but w/ 2 strikes is it really worth it to just let him off the hook?
"We have to beat these guys. All they do is (complain) and moan about everything, all of them. I really hate the Cardinals. Compared to the Cardinals, I love the Chicago Cubs. Let me make this clear: I hate the Cardinals" - Brandon Phillips
I thought the pitch they threw him (that he tickled into left) was the right pitch to throw there.
by MillerParkSouth on Aug 3, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
These graphics can help with part of the story
Here and Here (credit for both of those go to Josh Maciel via Tangotiger’s blog at BP [I think Kyle might have linked those a while back, too!)
Clearly though, the situation (who’s at bat and who’s on base) needs to be factored in to the decision as well. What kills me here is looking at the run expectancy for bases loaded with nobody out. Good god, Brewers.
yeah, it's situation dependent
so i would’ve at least pitched around him and hope he flailed at something, which wasn’t quite what happened. you can’t really complain about the pitch that was made and the result, but i would’ve preferred 2 on and a lesser batter in that situation.
by Capt Science on Aug 3, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think that day is coming anytime soon,
But what did I say today that’s worse than my usual? I’m not sure I understand what I said that would create trouble here.
Now that's great tasting chicken!
Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I wasn't trying to say that you did something, I just meant that the club is probably
going to be iffy about allowing a “blogger” to interview players/coaches, if somebody who works with the flagship station is doing what Matzek did.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
I think I can see two sides of this
the first, as you point out. The second is that club officials can’t (well they can, but its more touchy, and a PR thing) come out and ask the same questions and berate LaRussa or another club the way Matzek did. I think if you’re buying the second, they are OK with it, because I’ll bet you everyone in the Brewers organization felt like it was done with purpose, and it was a load of bull.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
a couple of 3 for 4 days, and McGehee's up to .260 on the year!
and .260, that ain’t bad
"We have to beat these guys. All they do is (complain) and moan about everything, all of them. I really hate the Cardinals. Compared to the Cardinals, I love the Chicago Cubs. Let me make this clear: I hate the Cardinals" - Brandon Phillips
by JAMOOL on Aug 3, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I love batting average
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Interesting note on attendance:
The note that the Pirates are on pace to approach 2MM fans was interesting to me as on the scoreboard on Monday night, they showed the home attendance to date and it was calculated (by us in the stands) that today’s game should put Milwaukee over the 2MM threshold for the season.
Not too bad.
"The Milwaukee Brewers' line score is starting to resemble an international phone number" - Pittsburgh Pirates Radio during 20-0 shutout - 4-22-10
Blevins would be a decent pickup for the crew.
Very tough on lefties. last year he had a 2.50xFIP vs lhb
Question
Once TLR is gone (hopefully next year), will the rivalry still be as heated? Will the Cards rivalry with EVERYBODY still be as heated? I know he’s the biggest chunk of the reason I dislike the Cards so much. I kind of think he’s the devil. He does realize that baseball is supposed to be fun, right?
by kotsaythebuzzkill on Aug 3, 2011 11:22 AM CDT reply actions
Listen carefully, Braun. TLR conquers and controls everything he rests his eye upon.











by nullacct on Aug 3, 2011 11:34 AM CDT reply actions 35 recs
I am so proud to rec this
Ugh, Shortstop
you can't have a post like that
and not use the braun face from the last photo. way to save it for the punchline, nullacct!
by Capt Science on Aug 3, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
This is the greatest thing that has ever been made
ever
"...just throw that pill over the plate and I'll make it happen." - Tony Plush
by thefreewheelin76 on Aug 3, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
You are absolutely on fire today
Greinke: "It’s not about the guacamole itself. I just don’t want to let them win."
I think its most appropriate to point out here
We HATE the Cardinals.
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
Here's how the Brewers should retaliate.
Simply win, and quietly untuck afterwards.
http://www.mlbsoup.com
Regardless, they have *something* planned
What are wily vets good for if not great ways to get under the other team’s skin?
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
I'm fairly certain Prince's "fighting's for the birds" comment is the best indicator of that
"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."
~Doug Melvin
by Charlie Marlow on Aug 3, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Wily vets have something planned?
Finally, finally, Kotasy has the chance to redeem himself fully…
Less than proud owner of Marmol Says Knock McLouth (BCB League III)
"Now attribute that shit!" mpbMKE
And in today's Yuni Watch
Since July 18th when Wilson threatened to take his starting position: 59 PAs .364/.390/.582 with 3 HR and a .378 BABIP
Founder of the BCBCU - Est. 2011
Why I'm not angry and St. Louis and hope the Brewers don't sink to their level tonight:
I think the whole reason LaRussa does stuff like filing frivolous complaints about lighting, throwing at Braun, calling Milwaukee “stupid,” etc. is because he thinks he’s some kind of Machiavellian genius who gets in the heads of the fans and players to help the Cardinals win. He wants people to be angry at the Cardinals. In reality, of course, he’s just a sad old man who is kind of a shitty manager but who has reigned over the two most steroid-filled stretches of any team in any sport’s history, and then lucked into managing a team centered by Pujols for the last decade (note: those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive).
He’s a crappy manager, a crappy person off-the-field, and the Brewers should just take the high road and ignore his antics and play baseball. The whole reason the Cardinals are such a terrible franchise right now is LaRussa: he’s been molding him into his pathetic vision for the last 15 years, he’s probably largely responsible for all the McGwire/steroid crap that tarnished the franchise, most current Cardinals fans have been forced to root for this clown to the point that they subconsciously side with his antics, and obviously the players are indoctrinated by him as well and if you disagree you get shipped off (e.g. Rasmus, Tatis, etc.)
He was a joke of a player who doesn’t know shit about the “old school” rules of baseball, he’s a terrible baseball mind, and the only reason people put up with his crap is because of his steroid-inflated managerial record. It’s sad for the Cardinals more than anything, really. Even after LaRussa’s gone it’s going to be years before his blight is removed from what I have no other reason to believe is such a reprehensible franchise.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
by SRB on Aug 3, 2011 12:52 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Dan Patrick had Prince as a guest by phone this morning on his talk show
Patrick tried to bait Fielder into some trash talk but Prince was cool saying the team’s job is to win games and he doesn’t get mad about things
He’s always open. He catches a lot of balls. He’s un-guardable, no matter how old he is
by WarWolf on Aug 3, 2011 1:06 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Heh
Prince must have taken anger management classes during the off-season.
Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.
He has to talk like that
in a walk year.
I really like Fielder’s personality, or at least all that I have read about it off of the field.
He realizes that win or lose this year, he is in for big money next year, and any comments that could be percieved in a negative manner could affect that forthcoming payday for him.
Or he's matured and isn't in his early 20s anymore
Get a ife broseph
by Supertramp on Aug 3, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There may be some truth to that.
But I also think that he became aware of his reputation for hot-headedness after the incident outside the Dodger’s clubhouse, the Parra altercation, etc., and he didn’t like it much. He made comments to that effect, in fact, last season, and I think it’s been pretty obvious the last 15 months that he’s trying to change that behavior. You can say that’s motivated by money, and you might be partially correct, but it’s probably got a lot more to do with the fact that he’s growing up a bit. Being a parent will do that, particularly, I imagine, when you’re in a profession where you’re on TV and you’re kids are old enough to see how you’re portrayed in the press after you lose your temper on camera.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Aug 3, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Right
The same people that complain the Brewers aren’t relying on cost-controlled, young talent also complain when the cost-controlled talent they do have does something immature. I never got that.
Get a ife broseph
Yes, he is clearly make a deliberate effort to rise above these things, which is... kind of the definition of maturity.
The Parra thing was bad, but I also think the Dodgers incident got blown out of proportion. It was portrayed as “angry hothead trying to murder everyone in the Dodgers clubhouse” when all he really probably wanted to do was give his former teammate an earful for throwing at him. Still not a good idea, but there’s a world of difference there.
"We’re here to win, man. All that fighting stuff, that’s for the birds." - Prince Fielder
by SRB on Aug 3, 2011 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs










































