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Around SBN: Full Coverage of 2012 Coke 600

A first look at the 2012 Brewers

It's barely after New Year's Day, but believe it or not, it might actually be about as good of a time as any before spring training to get a glimpse of what this year's Brewers will look like. The starting lineup, rotation, and bullpen are all about as set as they'll be until March, and the only two big questions remaining until then are whether Ryan Braun will be suspended and whether the Brewers will sign Norichika Aoki as a backup outfielder.

Given that, I thought it'd be fun to look deeper at the Brewers' ZiPS projections, which went up earlier this week. Those projections only have some of the basic stats, and when I saw a Viva El Birdos post this week converting the Cardinals' numbers to wOBA, FIP, and ultimately WAR, I thought I'd give it a shot for the Brewers.

So these are my own 2012 WAR calculations for the Brewers based on ZiPS projections, plus a bit of my own estimates on defense and playing time. The plate appearances (and, to a lesser extent, the innings pitched) for each player are all knocked down a bit from a full season's worth to account for the possible for injury for each player. Defensive estimates are in runs relative to league average per 150 games and come from a rough average of the past two years of UZR and Baseball Prospectus' Total Zone-based FRAA. (If you want to know all the nitty-gritty stuff about how I calculated my WAR, I put the methodological details at the end.)

Here's what the offense looks like:

Hitter Pos Line wOBA Fielding/150 PAs WAR rWAR/fWAR (2011)
Jonathan Lucroy C .254/.313/.375 .309
-1 475 1.8 0.6/1.9
Mat Gamel 1B .264/.341/.433 .343 -1 515 1.7 -0.5/-0.4
Rickie Weeks 2B .260/.350/.460 .360 0 515 3.5 3/3.7
Aramis Ramirez 3B .278/.340/.476 .356 -12 525 2.5 3.6/3.6
Alex Gonzalez SS .245/.282/.399 .298 5 550 1.7 1.3/1.1
Ryan Braun LF .296/.360/.525 .390 -3 460 3.5 7.7/7.8
Nyjer Morgan CF .266/.324/.353 .309 10 475 1.9 2.0/4.0
Corey Hart RF .270/.333/.481 .354 -3 580 2.7 4.0/4.2

Star-divide

Bench

Hitter Pos Line wOBA Fielding/150 PAs WAR rWAR/fWAR (2011)
George Kottaras C .239/.316/.401 .318
-4 200 0.8 0.6/0.7
Cesar Izturis IF .248/.291/.306 ..273 4 200 0.1 0.2/0.1
Taylor Green IF .264/.324/.423 .333 0 225 1.0 -0.1/0.1
Carlos Gomez OF .243/.296/.374 .304 12 375 1.4 1.7/2.0
Norichika Aoki OF .289/.338/.393 .327 275 0.8

Others

Hitter Pos Line wOBA Fielding/150 PAs WAR rWAR/fWAR (2011)
Martin Maldonado C .230/.296/.332 .283
3 200 0.4 0/0
Travis Ishikawa 1B .231/.306/.365 .300 5 200 0.1
Eric Farris 2B .257/.291/.342 .284 -1 200 0.1 0/0
Caleb Gindl OF .266/.334/.401 .329 -1 200 0.6
Logan Schafer OF .262/.318/.357 .305 3 200 0.4 0.1/0.1

Several of these WAR estimates seem a bit low - that's mostly because, as I wrote earlier, I'm being pretty conservative by adding the weighted chance that each player could be injured - so in effect, these estimates are as if every starter got at least a little bit injured throughout the year.

ZiPS hates Ryan Braun. It thinks he'll have his lowest average since 2008 and a wOBA more than 40 points lower than last year. I set the PAs based on a 50-game suspension for Braun (nudging them up for Morgan, Gomez, and Aoki), and between that and the low projection, ZiPS has the Brewers getting a huge drop in production from the Brewers' outfield next year. I don't see things falling that far, but it's probably realistic that we drop our expectations for Braun down into the 4-5 WAR range next year.

It also doesn't like Aramis Ramirez, though a lot of that is my own pessimistic fielding projection - he's shown a clear decline each of the past three years, and if he stays on that course, fielding could wipe out a third of his offensive value. On the other side, I'm pleasantly surprised by what it thinks Mat Gamel will do - I think we'd all be pretty pleased with a ~2 WAR season out of him at first.

On the bench, ZiPS seems to indicate that Gindl (or possibly even Logan Schafer) could offer a feasible alternative to Norichika Aoki as fifth outfielder at a fraction of the price. I'd be curious to know what the Brewers' estimation of Gindl and Schafer are as they work out Aoki this weekend - Don Money doesn't seem to consider them big-league-ready, but that's to be taken with the Don Money Grain of Salt.

Now the pitchers:

Starting Rotation

Pitcher ERA FIP K/BB IP WAR rWAR/fWAR (2011)
Zack Greinke 2.98 2.80 224/49 199 6.6 1.7/3.9
Yovani Gallardo 3.46 3.50 206/70 195.1 4.8 2.7/3.1
Shaun Marcum 3.51 3.68 129/41 151.1 3.5 3.3/2.7
Randy Wolf 4.04 4.49 120/61 178 2.8 3.1/1.4
Chris Narveson 4.32 4.32 122/59 150 2.2 0.9/1.5

Bullpen

Pitcher ERA FIP K/BB IP WAR rWAR/fWAR (2011)
John Axford 3.07 3.35 69/29 60 1.5 2.7/1.9
Francisco Rodriguez 3.23 3.43 62/23 55 1.2 2.4/1.4
Kameron Loe 3.61 3.93 43/17 55 0.9 0.7/1.2
Jose Veras 3.86 4.07 55/27 50 0.7 0.7/0.5
Zach Braddock 3.65 3.66 42/21 35 0.6 -0.4/-0.1
Marco Estrada 4.03 3.98 73/28 87 1.6 0.4/0.8
Manny Parra 4.80 4.58 35/20 40 0.4

Others

Pitcher ERA FIP K/BB IP WAR rWAR/fWAR (2011)
Tim Dillard 3.93 3.99 23/10 30 0.4 0.1/0.3
Brandon Kintzler 3.71 3.72 26/8 30 0.5 -0.1/0
Mike McClendon 4.01 3.71 19/9 30 0.5 0.1/0.1
Michael Fiers 4.01 4.22 27/12 30 0.5 0.1/0
Frankie de la Cruz 4.50 4.54 23/16 30 0.4 0.2/0.1
Wily Peralta 4.67 4.50 23/15 30 0.4

As you can see, ZiPS seems to like the Brewers' pitchers a lot more than the hitters. I think a lot of that has do with the less conservative playing time estimates here (I pretty much just stuck to ZiPS' innings-pitched totals on the rotation), though it could very well be due to a glitch in my pitching WAR calculations, too.

Either way, ZiPS pretty much wants to have Zack Greinke's babies - it trusts the defense-independent numbers from his 2011 season a lot more than the overall numbers and projects a monster year from him. Honestly, anything approaching these numbers would be fantastic to get out of our starting rotation, even if the overall value got knocked down a bit by a few injuries.

In the pen, we have quite a few solid pitchers to go to, and ZiPS really seems to love Marco Estrada for some reason. (I calculated his WAR as being split between the bullpen and rotation.) I also didn't realize until I went through this how much bullpen depth the Brewers have the potential to have. They'll need it, too, because I'm certainly not confident that Manny Parra, Zach Braddock, or Brandon Kintzler will be healthy and in anything near normal form. Tim Dillard and Mike McClendon are solid options for the back of the pen, and I'm starting to get really bullish on Mike Fiers filling a long-man role at some point this year.

Overall, I see a much more well-rounded 2012 team than in 2011 on offense, with the extreme highs of Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder's MVP-caliber seasons and the extreme lows of Casey McGehee and Mr. Golden Hands replaced with a lot of blessedly circa-league average play. (Projections are always going to shade out the extremes, so take this paragraph with a grain of salt, of course.)

And that's just fine with me, because if the pitching staff stays healthy (not necessarily likely) and the defense behind it improves (much more likely), it could carry this team to playoff contention. This team doesn't strike me as a potential 96-win juggernaut like last year, but despite that, it seems just a bit better built overall, with a few of last year's strengths maintained and gaping holes plugged - something that, with good health, should at least keep 2012 interesting for Brewers fans into August or September.

Methodological details:

For the basics, I relied pretty heavily on vivaelpujols' two awesome VEB posts on calculating WAR for hitters and pitchers. For wOBA, I used the basic (1.75*OBP+SLG)/3 formula and adjusted for baserunning using the SB and CS weights from Beyond the Boxscore.

To get from wOBA to WAR, I pretty closely followed the formula from the BtB spreadsheet here, slightly adjusting a couple of numbers to fit with Tom Tango's original formula. As I wrote above, fielding came from a two-year average of UZR and Total Zone, plus my own estimates in the case of wildly disparate numbers or a clear decline (Aramis Ramirez).

For pitching, I averaged FIP and ERA, then adjusted for unearned runs to get runs allowed. I then calculated WAR through the Pythagorean formula, with a modified run-environment exponent per this Hardball Times formula. I used separate 2011 NL league averages for starting pitching and bullpen pitching, and adjusted replacement levels accordingly. Any questions? Ask me in the comments.

Comment 79 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Interesting, thanks for estimating things.

FWIW, the 25-man based on your WAR estimates would be +50.0 fWAR (if I’m adding that correctly; using Gindl instead of Aoki), while the 2011 actual team fWAR total was +51.0. But your playing time estimates are very conservative and well below what the team PA/IP totals will be, so unless below-replacement players fill in it should be even higher.

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 6, 2012 12:06 AM CST reply actions  

Yeah, the more I look at it, the more I think my WAR calculations for pitchers are just a bit high.

I think the replacement-level baseline I used for pitching was a bit worse than it should have been (I just grabbed what someone else used for a previous year, but runs were slightly down last year), so it may be that each pitcher’s WAR projections – especially the starters’ – should be down a few decimal points.

Overall, though, like you said, it’s a pretty positive projection for the Brewers next year.

by Cheeseandcorn on Jan 6, 2012 7:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Three months later

and I still laugh EVERY time I read, hear or think about “Mr. Golden Hands.”

Steve
http://nohuddleoffense.blogspot.com

by stigmo on Jan 6, 2012 8:07 AM CST reply actions  

The projected hitting line for Gonzalez surprised me a bit

We just have to hope 2011 was a down year and he can bring his OBP back in the .290 range and his UZR to +5 or so. If those both happen, then I’d be okay with the production they get out of him.

To be honest, when they announce Braun’s suspension officially, I think it’s going to be very hard for the Brewers to compete for the postseason unless Gamel has a Rookie Of The Year type of season (I know he’s not eligible for ROTY, but you get the idea). At least Braun will be fresh for the postseason if they get there.

Great work!

by ecocd on Jan 6, 2012 8:39 AM CST reply actions  

I agree with your second paragraph.

And I really, really wish I didn’t.

"fortunate, but also lucky"

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 7, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

If the Brewers played as badly as the Cubs did last year without Braun for 50 games

And then played at the same level as they did last year when he comes back they would end up at 88 wins. (Gamel+Ramirez+Gonzalez is roughly equal to Fielder+McGehee+Yuni)
I so happen to think that the Brewers, even without Braun, would have a better line-up than the Cubs last year. So I would not think that unreasonable to think that they can still get to the playoffs next season even with Braun out for 50 games assuming that it takes around 90 wins to get the wildcard.

by Saltire on Jan 7, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it will be that bad

The defense has improved greatly, they can win some low-scoring games with their pitching.

Mark Attanasio is the best.

by nullacct on Jan 9, 2012 2:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Low numbers

ZIPS has no love for Plush at all.

by PJLizard on Jan 6, 2012 9:12 AM CST reply actions  

ZiPS sucks

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 6, 2012 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Actually, it doesn't

at least when it comes to pitching.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 8, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

It sucks less than some other metrics. They all suck.

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 8, 2012 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

So the lesson is that we should look at nothing, and just wait for it to happen?

Ok.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 8, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah I know

I was just wondering how he was going to defend an obviously indefensible statement.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 8, 2012 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

You both are joking, right? This is a joke?

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 9, 2012 1:21 AM CST up reply actions  

No?

Why would it be a joke?

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 9, 2012 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think that's indefensible at all

Predictive metrics are not very accurate. That doesn’t mean we should stop talking about them, but we should take their projections with a grain of salt and not assume they will come true.

"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa

by mnbrewer on Jan 9, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I think by their nature everything you posted is implied

but, at least you got a rec out of it I guess.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 9, 2012 6:06 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Finally, we all agree that it's implied by its nature that ZiPS sucks.

Took the scenic route but we got there!

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 9, 2012 7:22 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Same with xFIP

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 9, 2012 9:23 PM CST up reply actions  

ugh...

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 9, 2012 9:46 PM CST up reply actions  

ZiPS predictive value is superior

if you believe the correlation numbers in that fangraphs post.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 9, 2012 11:03 PM CST up reply actions  

A correlation of .48 is still not very accurate

Hence my earlier post

"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa

by mnbrewer on Jan 10, 2012 1:53 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Is that better or worse than .438?

which is xFIP’s value, and the stat that everyone around here is OK using to say “well, this stat shows that he’s gotten unlucky this year so far, and he should improve.”

SRB said ZiPS sucked. It turns out, its better at predicting ERA than xFIP is, which is a stat people at this site commonly reference for its predictive value. I think that’s worth noting. If you want to just keep pointing out the obvious, I’m OK with that. But its sort of redundant, considering I linked the post, and I would assume most folks here are familiar with correlation.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 10, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

If we both think it's obvious

that predictive measures aren’t accurate, then I’m not sure what we disagree on…

"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa

by mnbrewer on Jan 10, 2012 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll repost it for you:
Is that better or worse than .438?
which is xFIP’s value, and the stat that everyone around here is OK using to say "well, this stat shows that he’s gotten unlucky this year so far, and he should improve."

SRB said ZiPS sucked. It turns out, its better at predicting ERA than xFIP is, which is a stat people at this site commonly reference for its predictive value. I think that’s worth noting. If you want to just keep pointing out the obvious, I’m OK with that. But its sort of redundant, considering I linked the post, and I would assume most folks here are familiar with correlation.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 10, 2012 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

.438 and .48 are both bad

Predictive measures are bad. xFIP is bad. ZIPS is bad. I think maybe you’re the one who needs to read earlier posts, not me.

"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa

by mnbrewer on Jan 11, 2012 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

No I know what the posts say

the point I’m making is if ZiPS had said Morgan was going to put up 4.0 WAR, SRB wouldn’t have batted an eye.

Similarly, folks that frequent this site (SRB included) are happy to extol the virtues of xFIP. I was pointing out that its predictive value (which is what it is used as) is not as good as ZiPS.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 11, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

ZiPS and xFIP are totally different stats with totally differen purposes...

And I thought it was obvious that predicting future seasons’ performances always leads to results that suck. Apparently you found that very indefensible and befuddling.

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 10, 2012 11:26 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

xFIP is an ERA predictor

ZiPS is a stats predictor. Totally different.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 10, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

One's looking forward, and one's looking to give

a better assessment of past performance.

E: George 4 (5, throw, throw, throw, throw).

by Jordan M on Jan 10, 2012 4:47 PM CST up reply actions  

And thus make inferences about future performance

There’s rarely a time when xFIP is referenced when “so, going forward, we should expect to see a correction in the form of:” isn’t part of the statement/article/etc.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 10, 2012 6:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Nobody expects a player’s ERA to exactly match his xFIP. It’s a predictive tool in that it suggests when a player is getting ‘unlucky’ or ‘lucky’ relative to his actual performance. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t completely suck for the purpose of an exact ERA prediction.

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 10, 2012 11:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Similarly, ZiPS takes into account past performance and attempts to come up with future performance.

"If we want to sign a Type A free agent, we would lose a second-round pick, but we don't have a way to get picks back. Our whole Draft process needs to be redone."

~Doug Melvin

"Something always good seems to happen when he's in there. Numbers matched up good."

~RRR

by Charlie Marlow on Jan 11, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

That's because

they have no way of accounting for whether a hit was of the “tickled” variety (and therefore excellent) or “non-tickled” (and therefore appalling)…

BCB Fantasy Football 2011 winner (Swansons League)
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool

by MrLeam on Jan 6, 2012 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe tickled line drives (TLD) are so rare that they confuse the batted ball component of ZiPS and break the computer. Of course, Nyjer Morgan has a historically high TLD%.

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 6, 2012 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

As long as he remains in a strict platoon, Nyjer should outperform that projection.

ZIPS is basically just taking last year’s performance and averaging it with the year prior. Obviously there’s more to it, but that’s why this projection is relatively low.

by tcyoung on Jan 8, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Great work here ...

I hope that Lucroy, with more experience, will be a defensive asset. There were those pitch-framing studies that show he’s in the upper echelon of MLB catchers at getting marginal strikes — and that’s something that gets undervalued by the normal defensive metrics, right? — but he has passed-ball issues (and Wolf issues).

by MooseHaas on Jan 6, 2012 12:06 PM CST reply actions  

There still really aren't any accepted catcher defense metrics

Even UZR has its problems, but it’s one of the best (in my opinion, the best) we have to go on. Catcher defense is another statistic where there has to be something so someone just made a decision on the best that’s currently out there. I think you’ll find more hand-wringing over catcher defense than just about any other statistic out there.

(Un)fortunately, there’s so little catching talent out there, that there really aren’t many tough decisions to make. There are Great Catchers, Good catchers, Serviceable catchers and Back-up catchers. There’s going to be some overlap between those groups, but a team is very rarely going to have two catchers in the same group on their roster. if you gave a list of 30 catchers to some of the best baseball minds, I imagine they’d all end up with extremely similar classifications.

by ecocd on Jan 6, 2012 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Marco Estrada better than Axford?

Estrada with a 1.6 WAR and Axford with 1.5 WAR?

by ddloml on Jan 6, 2012 3:26 PM CST reply actions  

I think that this somewhat down to Estrada being projected to pitch

almost 50% more innings than Axford. WAR is an accumalative stat and closers don’t pitch often enough to get high WAR numbers.

by Saltire on Jan 6, 2012 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup, that's it.

It’s entirely because Estrada’s projected to get more innings than Axford.

by Cheeseandcorn on Jan 6, 2012 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Simulations

I simulated the entire 2012 schedule using my own set of proprietary hitters/pitchers projections and used FSR for defense. I simulated every game each team plays 10K times and added the win expectancy of each game to come up with a expected seasonal win tally. I used bench depths for hitters but for starting pitchers I just used each teams top five starters throughout the whole season. So any team with more expected injuries in the starting rotation could be docked a little, not sure that really effects the Brewers though.

Anyways the total number of wins the simulator gave the Brewers for 2012 was 84.6, while scoring 682 runs and giving up 649. Not saying that this is more accurate than other methods, but it is just another data point.

by Xeifrank on Jan 7, 2012 12:06 AM CST reply actions  

Interesting.

My personal system has the Brewers at 105.7 wins.

If Plush had to pick Wearwolf or Vampire, I'm a Wearwolf!

by SRB on Jan 7, 2012 1:49 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

That's what I have too.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Jan 8, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Seems a little low.

Give him an offspeed pitch down and in. He will swing and miss.

by cooper82 on Jan 8, 2012 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

What is it with Braun not suspended?

86 flat?

So the Brewers are two wins worse than last year? Solid. 94 wins, here we come.

by cwolf20 on Jan 8, 2012 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

So we take the BTC estimate and add 10...

Woo hoo playoffs!

Mark Attanasio is the best.

by nullacct on Jan 9, 2012 2:11 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Is there any hope of Lucroy's bat improving in the next couple of years?

I’d always hoped that his bat would come on after he’d been in the bigs for a couple of years, but there doesn’t appear to much sign of that happening anymore.

"fortunate, but also lucky"

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jan 7, 2012 11:09 AM CST reply actions  

I feel like Lucroy's pretty close to his ceiling right now, as a slightly below league-average catcher.

It’s easy to forget he was never that touted of a prospect to begin with – he was ranked below Angel Salome for most of his time in the Brewers’ system, IIRC.

The one place I really think he has room to improve is his patience – he showed more of that in the minors, and I really wish he could show it in the majors, too.

by Cheeseandcorn on Jan 7, 2012 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

He routinely carried an OBP 100 points better than his average in the minors

I don’t think he’s hit his ceiling at all. We saw some power this season, and the plate discipline is going to come around. Will he be a 5 WAR catcher? Probably not, but I don’t think it’s out of line to think he can put up 3 WAR in a season. The guy is only 25 years old.

by cwolf20 on Jan 7, 2012 12:26 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Here's a question for you then.

If you think Lucroy is near his ceiling now, how many seasons do you think he will be the Brewers’ primary starter?

Contributor on Brew Crew Ball, Commissioner of Prognostikeggers, Owner of a broken sarcasm detector

by -JP- on Jan 8, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I dont think he is at his ceiling

But I dont foresee him ever being an all star type player.

I would suspect that if/when July 31 rolls around this year and they arent in contention, that they will attempt to move some pieces, and one of the things they will be looking for in return is a solid catching prospect. Grienke or Marcum to the Yankees for a guy like Gary Sanchez or Austin Romine would definitely shorten Lucroy’s tenure as Brewer starting catcher.

by backtocali on Jan 8, 2012 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

No way...

Lucroy is completely fine doing what he’s doing.

A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.

by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 10, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

You forget

He’s a Brewer, therefore he sucks. Get with the program.

by cwolf20 on Jan 10, 2012 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

If mediocrity is your thing

Then Lucroy is your guy. I’d say that even at his peak he will barely be an above average player.

There’s no problem with having 2 WAR type players on your team, but dont expect Lucroy to turn into some sort of all star player. His defense will probably be something that will always keep his value down a bit.

by backtocali on Jan 11, 2012 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

You're right

If someone wasn’t an A or B+ prospect, they absolutely cannot get better or be any good.

by cwolf20 on Jan 11, 2012 5:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Thats not what Ive said

Others on the board will readily admit he is most likely at his peak offesnsively, and I concur.

But his defense has always been an issue for him. Sure he can improve, but unless he makes leaps and bounds in the next couple of years in that part of his game, its most likely to remain below average while he remains at the position. And once he reaches that peak physical age, any defensive skill he may have at that point will rapidly decrease as he ages. The reality is that catching is the most diffucult position in all of sports to learn, much less get really good at.

I like my odds of being “right” on this one.

by backtocali on Jan 11, 2012 9:53 PM CST up reply actions  

At his peak offensively?

I don’t understand that at all. He’s only been in the league for 2 years after he skipped AAA. Why wouldn’t we expect his offense to improve?

by tcyoung on Jan 11, 2012 11:14 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

You say that you don't think he's at his ceiling

but then go on to say that he’s a 2 WAR player. His fWAR last season was 2.5. If he’s not at his ceiling yet, then you must think that he’s capable of having an even better season.

Pujols is the Barack Obama of baseball.

by sjlee on Jan 12, 2012 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

I look at Fangraphs WAR

and yeah, like others, his offensive line from 2011 looks about as good as you can expect for him going forward. Maybe he strikes out less or walks more in the future and bumps himself up to a mid 2 WAR type of guy, but I cant forsee him exploding into an all star type of player.

by backtocali on Jan 12, 2012 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

My bad

I was looking at Fangraphs too, but didn’t realize that the lowest stat line was his projected 2012 WAR and not his 2011 WAR.

by sjlee on Jan 13, 2012 2:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

If there is anything we learned over the past decade of “awesome” Brewer’s catchers, it’s that an average/inexpensive catcher is incredibly valuable. What team has All-Stars at every position in baseball? Every team has a few All-Star caliber players, it’s those fringe/average players that make the difference between the playoffs and watching October baseball from the couch.

BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.

by MadJimiBrewha on Jan 8, 2012 3:56 PM CST reply actions  

Reply fail

That was a reponse to the bc and cheese responses above.

BCB, the preferred above replacement level sarcasm supplier.

by MadJimiBrewha on Jan 8, 2012 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

"BC and Cheese"

“The ultimate crime fighting duo, armed only with a controversial Excel spreadsheet and a shared love of debating the Brewers, coming to a cinema near you soon…”

BCB Fantasy Football 2011 winner (Swansons League)
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool

by MrLeam on Jan 9, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Will you rec it

if we change it to “Cheese and BC” instead? Yes, I think you can be bought off that easily…

BCB Fantasy Football 2011 winner (Swansons League)
"LOLOL I LOVE YUNI!!!!": ThroughBeingCool

by MrLeam on Jan 9, 2012 1:36 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

good post, cheeseandcorn.

i used to be disgusted, but now i try to be amused . . . - macmanus

by tom s. on Jan 9, 2012 8:05 PM CST reply actions  

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