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Trading Carlos

That was not a good weekend.

I'm sure I'm not the only Brewers fan to have sat through the last few innings of yesterday's game in Kansas City thinking about trading Carlos Lee.  Not even "whether" or "when" but "for what."  I suppose the Crew could go on a seven game run this week, with four games at Wrigley and three more against the Twins, but barring that, I'd say it's time to put everyone over the age of thirty on the block.

Obviously, the guy we're going to get the most value for is El Caballo.  There are plenty of potential suitors--depending on how you feel about Alfonso Soriano, Carlos is the best hitter who might be on the market this summer.  Just about any team could use him: the Yankees, the Tigers, the White Sox (!), the Cardinals, the Astros, and the Angels, just to name a few.  Yankee fans are already foaming at the mouth because the Brewers are scouting golden boy Philip Hughes.

But I don't think Carlos is going to be traded to the Yankees.  It does make a lot of sense, but I don't think Hughes will be enough--sure, he's got the talent, the high ceiling, all of that, but I don't think Melvin will pull the trigger on a deal where the major piece we get back needs another full year in the minors, as Hughes might.

The deal that makes the most sense, purely on an analysis of each team's needs, is Carlos to the Cardinals for a package headed by Anthony Reyes.  If the Cardinals are going to compete in the postseason this year, they need not only stronger outfield corners, but they need more durability, and Carlos certainly gives you that.  And there's no doubt that Melvin would jump at the chance to add someone like Reyes to the rotation.  The sticking point: they're in the division.  I really wouldn't mind seeing Carlos in red a few times, but the Cardinals might have a problem seeing Reyes come back against them a few times each year until 2011.

Here's the deal that I'm suddenly convinced will happen.  Carlos Lee will go to the Angels for a package headed by Jeff Mathis.  Maybe, because the Angels are down on Dallas MacPherson, we can get him, too.  The Angels are just barely on the fringes of the race, but they still consider themselves in it--after all, they chased down the A's last year, and the Rangers will wilt under the 102 degree heat in Arlington.  

Mathis had a dreadful April in the big leagues--perhaps he wasn't quite ready--but scout have loved his defense and believed in his bat for years.  He was the Angels catcher-of-the-future until, this May, all of the sudden he wasn't, and Mike Napoli started playing well enough to make LA fans forget about Mathis.  Well, we need a catcher of the future.  Damian's under contract for next year, so Mathis could be a 60-70 game backup next year and take over the job in 2008.  We'd have him under our control for just as long as we do the Prince/Rickie/Corey/JJ squadron.

I'm convinced, however, that this deal needs to happen fast.  As I said, the Angels are barely in the race.  In a month, they might have given up on the season, looking to trade their own vets.  But of all the teams with a need for Caballo, they're the main one that has position-player talent to trade.  And while I wouldn't mind picking up a top-shelf pitching talent like Reyes, Hughes, or maybe Humberto Sanchez from the Tigers, we suddenly have a system stocked with pitching prospects.  We can always use more, but I'd set that priority below the importance of getting at least one catcher who could take over for Damian.

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Continuing...
from here.

Okay, if they make a deal right now, the Angels are a legitimate trading partner. But I don't think a deal is going to get done right now. And even if it did, I hope it wouldn't centered around Mathis. Mathis is a fine player, but you have to add up a lot of B/B- prospects, which is what Mathis is, to nab a "franchise hitter," which is what the media is calling Carlos Lee.

As for the Cardinals, with their pitching imploding and Reyes shining, I don't see how they can afford to trade him even if TLR dislikes him (which he appears to). Offense is not the issue for the Cardinals right now.

by battlekow on Jun 26, 2006 1:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

this isn't really mathis-for-lee even up, though
we're trading a few months of Lee (a few months that might be semi-worthless to us) for FIVE YEARS of Mathis.  If he's a major league regular, that's a steal.

Now, I don't think that's the deal that'll get Carlos--he'll be in too much demand.  But frankly, if I had to choose between an even-up Mathis deal and an even-up Hughes deal, I'd probably take Mathis, and I'd be happy about it.  Now or a month from now.

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 26, 2006 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even-up
Well, Lee isn't getting dealt even-up for any prospect, so whether we'd prefer Mathis to Hughes is a moot point (though I wouldn't).

The Angels certainly have a better ability to put together a package deal than the Yankees, who have Philip Hughes, Jose Tabata, and then a bunch of plastic milk rings, but I have to figure that for Doug Melvin, that package begins with Nick Adenhart.

If he can convince the Angels to package Adenhart, Mathis, and whatever else for Lee and Tony Gwynn Jr/Dave Krynzel in the next couple weeks, that would be excellent. But I think it's too early.

by battlekow on Jun 26, 2006 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

cubs
Sweep the Cubs here and you may be singing a different tune Jeff.

hey Russ, what are the odds of sweeping the Cubs?

dropping 2 of 3 to the royals was a crushing blow i think. Maybe even more crushing than 'The Losing Streak'.

We should be at .500 right now with a soft schedule in front of us putting us in a position to make a run up to the all-star break.

Seriously, look at the schedule, we have two of the weakest teams in baseball for 10 games, and a team on the decline ahead of us in the standings. And then it is the all star break.

We legitimately could win/sweep all four of the next series, and be sitting 2 (8-5) or 3 (9-4) games above .500 (which would be 3 or even 5 games above had we won the KC series).

What if we were 5 games over .500 at the all-star break? It's basically impossible now, but what if?
Well, we'd be in the catbird seat for the WC.

If we are 2 games over .500 at the break we are still legitimately in it.

Would you trade Lee, essentially sacking the season, if we were 2 games out of the WC at the break?

I wouldn't. (Jenkins however... replaced by a gross/hart platoon...)

Let LEE walk in free agency and take the draft pick. At least you give yourself a fighting chance to bring him back this year if you don't trade him.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jun 26, 2006 2:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with Jeff
Trading Lee isn't "essentially sacking the season" with how week the NL is this year, especially if you compensate with Sheets/Ohka coming off the DL.

Whether it would be seen as such is a different story, but if they continue to play relatively good ball afterwards, who cares how the trade initially played?

by battlekow on Jun 26, 2006 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sacking
So are you saying that trading LEE and replacing him with a gross/hart platoon would not damage our playoff chances?

Or are you saying those chances are toast already?

if it's a choice between "relatively good ball" and "potential playoffs" which i think it still is, i'll take potential playoffs.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jun 26, 2006 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The effect of trading Lee
Of course it would have a deleterious effect on the season, but it wouldn't be a white flag. If it's a choice between a) making the playoffs this year and being swept in the first round by the Mets, or b) improving our chances to make the playoffs for the next five years running by trading a player we're not going to keep beyond this year, then I choose the latter.

by battlekow on Jun 26, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

white flag.
No, you are right, not a white flag. But I don't think getting a prospect now, as opposed to in the draft is all that big a drop-off, especially given the strength of the farm system right now.

It'd have to be a prospecty, ML-ready arm sinces all the other positions are basically solidified for years to come. I don't think that's as easy to come by as ya'll think. Also, I don't know that such an arm would fit in as easily as ya'll think either.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jun 26, 2006 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

keep lee
ps. What if we can deal Jenkins at the end of the year? Then we'd want Lee around, yes?
Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jun 26, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't imagine any realistic circumstance
in which I'd want to keep Lee.  He won't give much of a hometown discount, and while he might be worth it for the first year or two of his deal, whoever signs him WILL OVERPAY.  That is as close to a certainty as you will ever get in baseball.  The Yankees and the Angels can afford it; we cannot.

At this point I don't think Jenkins is any better than Cruz or Hart will be next year...I don't think keeping Geoff has any bearing on Carlos.

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 26, 2006 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jenkins
What is it going to be next year, something like $8 million? Whether or not Jenkins is around next year has everything to do with whether or not Lee is around. We won't keep both. But you are right, someone will throw 4/45 at him, maybe even more. But with Jenkins off the books the Brewers could realistically offer a competitive 2 or 3 year contract to Lee.

So yes, and no. Someone will overpay for Lee, but I'm certain that whether or not Jenkins is around affects our attitude toward and willingness to pay Lee. If they don't shop Jenkins, then Lee is a goner for sure. The Brewers simply could not carry a Sheets/Jenkins/Lee trio of contracts. Certainly not with raises dues to some of our key players next year. Jenkins is not earning is 8 million right now, not as a platoon player. Lee can play everyday, Jenkins can't, that alone is worth the extra few million we'd need to offer Lee.

I don't think we could win Lee in free agency, but we could compete for him if Jenkins weren't around. And losing Jenkins does not hurt this ball club right now.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jun 26, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You may be right
But I still don't think that Geoff's presence SHOULD affect what happens with Carlos.  Geoff's salary is only on the books for '07, and nobody will get all that expensive next year, except for Carlos, if he stays.  Unless Doug has some plan to sign a couple free agent pitchers or who knows what else, the money is there for Carlos.

That doesn't change the fact that paying for Carlos means overpaying for Carlos, and that's something we shouldn't do whether we have Geoff Jenkins, Corey Hart, or Brooks Kieschnick manning right field.

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 27, 2006 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

jenkins & lee
Jenkins is due 7 next year with a team option of 9 for '08. Cappy & Billy Hall enter arbitration. With the years those two are having that could be an additional 5 or 6 million on those two raises alone. Ohka is a free agent in '07. So he'll command a few dollars to hold onto as well.

I agree with you on overpaying for Lee, but if it were say a 2/25 that wouldn't be such a lead balloon. Overpaying is disastrous when you have to give 4 and 5 year contracts. But they can't even offer that with Jenkins around. I like the idea of career players. And I think Jenkins is an outstanding hitter, always has been, but only against right handed hitting. I'd give him 4 million a year for as long as he wants to be a brewer to platoon in the OF. But those $16 million dollars over the next two years are overpaying for his services.

Bring Back The Old Logo!

by jacob on Jun 27, 2006 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kendrick?
Well, we can dream, can't we?  

The Angels really do need arms, so perhaps a good young arm (not Yovani or Rogers) along with Lee might net one of the Angels better prospects; but more likely the Brewers would end up with a couple of Grade B guys.  Melvin, at least from the Sexson trade (if that's indicative), seems to like acquiring many prospects rather than setting his hopes on just one unproven guy.  Brandon Wood is striking out a lot in AA, but he still might be a very good thirdbaseman (rather than shortstop).  I get the sense the MacPherson is a bit of a head case (who also has serious contact problems).  In any case, I doubt the Angels would part with Kendrick, Wood, Jered Weaver, or Nick Adenhart.  Everyone else is probably available.

Another possibility is Houston, if Melvin isn't squeamish about dealing within the division.  I'm not familiar enough with their system, though.  Hunter Pence?  Perhaps one of their 6th startes - Fernando Nieve?

by charles on Jun 26, 2006 3:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

LA/Houston
The Angels also need a centerfielder. Gwynn Jr or Kryznel (who is exactly the Angels' type of guy) might sweeten the deal for them, and they're redundant for us.

As for the Astros, Jason Hirsh and Troy Patton are guys Melvin might be interested in. I'm also intrigued by the idea of getting Jason Lane, who has power and on-base skills but might need a change of scenery.

by battlekow on Jun 26, 2006 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Angels and Arms
Charles, I would say the Angels are in need of arms less than most, if not all, organizations in the major leagues. They have Jered Weaver, Joe Saunders and Steven Shell in AAA. One has already shown he can pitch very well in the big leagues, Saunders is finally putting it together after some injury problems and Shell might be decent. Plus, they have Adenhart dominating in low A ball. The only weakness in the Angels minor league system might be a a lack of talent in the outfield.

In reply to the rest of this thread, Mathis is a very likely candidate to come to Milwaukee if a trade is reached with LAA. Plus, there's all those rumors about Ervin Santana being on the market. I don't think they could take Santana AND Mathis, but if they did it would be amazing. I would even love a Lee for Santana straight up deal. Those rumors have to be bogus, though. I don't see why the Angels would trade him unless they know some kind of secret about him. Maybe he's a terrorist.

by BroadwayJoe22 on Jun 27, 2006 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I may still be interested
perhaps he's an eco-terrorist with a heart of gold.  Or something.  

battlekow convinced me earlier today that I need to be a bit greedier in planning these potential trades, but Ervin + Mathis...ooh, that's just too much.

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 27, 2006 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Santana
I think Stoneman made an atypical comment the other day, implying that they don't need to rush things (i.e., they can wait on their youngsters).  They've been a machine for second basemen: Alexi Casilla, Alberto Callaspo, and Kendrick.

I'd like to see what Maddux could do with Santana.  As for catching, can the Crew wait for Angel Salome?  I think if Maddux is considered a strong point for the organization, they need to get as many projects (with potential) for him as possible.  I tend to wonder whether Capuano would be this good without Maddux's tutelage.

by charles on Jun 27, 2006 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Salome
he's young, and he's in low-A.  So it's probably not reasonable to count on him any sooner than '09, and given what tends to happen to catchers with pop, who knows if he'll still be a catcher by then.  

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 27, 2006 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stats anyone?
Anyone know (or want to venture a guess): when a player is traded before the deadline in a contract year, how often does he resign with the team he's traded to?

I know sometimes a team will try to negotiate a long-term deal with the player before trading him (kind like what was rumored to have happened with Burnitz and San Diego).  If Lee still had 1+ years left on his contract, then I think we can ask for the world.  If he's not likely to resign, though, I can't see a team giving us much for him, unless it's a team like the Tigers, one who has a rare but legitimate shot to, you know, win.  A team that's on the bubble but not a serious contender (hey, kind of like us) --- I guess if I were a fan of that team, I'd be pissed if we gave up a lot for a guy we keep for three months.

It'd be nice to think that if we traded Jenkins,we still might trade Lee.  My guess is, though, if one goes, the other stays.

"C'mon, boys, let's get 'em some RUNS!" --- Daron Sutton, pretty much every game of the 2005 season.

by roguejim on Jun 27, 2006 8:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What about the Dodgers?
What about a deal with the Dodgers?  Sure, their outfield is a but crowded, but they could use a slugger like Lee and ahve prospects to deal.  What if they offered Russel Martin and a AA arm?  Or Dioner Navarro and Andre Ethier?  They have two good, young catchers (assuming Navarro's healthy again) that we could use.  And the $$$ to re-sign Lee.  

by TrueBlueBrewCrew on Jun 27, 2006 9:36 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, they are definitely a possibility
because of those catchers.  I don't think we have much use for Ethier, what with about seven guys gunning for an OF spot next year, but they have pitching, too...

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 27, 2006 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dodgers
Well, they just traded Dioner Navarro to the Devil Rays, so there goes that option.

by battlekow on Jun 27, 2006 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

something tells me
The Devil Rays probably aren't looking to add Carlos Lee.

by Jeff Sackmann on Jun 27, 2006 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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