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Yost Will Be Back

Begin rant.

As you all know by now, Doug Melvin has announced that Yost will return for 2008.  Attanasio had already given him a vote of confidence, and I don't think any of us seriously believed there'd be a hunt for a new manager this offseason.

After following baseball from a sabermetric vantage point over the last several years, I should be used to this sh*t.  But I'm not.  I think people generally agree that baseball managers have two roles:

  • Emotional leader: keeping the players motivated, avoiding clubhouse acrimony, etc.
  • Field tactician: effectively using the 25-man roster to do the best job of winning games.
I think people (at least with sabermetric leanings) also generally agree that most baseball managers are pretty good at the former (if they last long, as Yost has), and not so good at the latter.  That's why guys like Davey Johnson and Earl Weaver--notably good at the field tactician aspect--are held up as heroes.

Here's what makes me angry.  I refuse to believe that there are so few eligible baseball managers out there who are good at field management.  Okay, maybe I am willing to believe that--after all, they all studied at the knee of some other bad field tactician--but given how modern analyst types have infiltrated front offices--up to and including the general manager, in some cases--it seems like managers ought to be better educated.  (And I don't mean that buying a copy of "Baseball Between the Numbers" and having it on display when a reporter stops by is good enough.)

Maybe this is hubris talking, but I'm convinced that if you let me sit down and talk with a receptive major league manager for an hour or two, I could show him how to win--I'm pulling a number out of my hat here--three more games a season, with the same players.  For just one example, I pointed out the other day in my Menchkins Post Mortem that using the two of them in a more strict platoon could've been an extra 1-1.5 wins for the Crew.  Would that have been so hard?

Bullpen management, of course, is the thing that most infuriates us about our managers.  They stick with "proven closers," play matchups when the sample size is five whole at-bats, and ignore the splits data that they should apply, such as Turnbow's results on the second of back-to-back days.

And here, again, is where I get really angry.  I'm guessing many of you have played Strat-o-matic or Diamond Mind.  For those who haven't: they are (now, anyway) computer games with very detailed player information, and your job is basically to manage your team.  Set the lineup, make in-game changes, pick strategy, etc.  , and see what happens.  If you're playing against the computer, the program makes those decisions for the other team.

And you know what?  It (usually) makes good decisions!  I would argue that the computer manager in Strat or Diamond Mind is better at bullpen management than, oh, I don't know, 75% of active managers.  Maybe 100%.  It's simple really: bring in your best reliever when the leverage index is as high as it is likely to get, play lefty-righty matchups, try not to burn your entire pen in one day, and don't pitch guys who are tired.  Funny how far those principles will get you.

That, as I see it, should be the bare minimum of what is expected of major league managers.  A f'ing computer can do it!  If somebody wants to pay me $10,000 to do it (Hi Doug!), I will write you an application you can put on a f'ing BLACKBERRY that will tell a manager when to make pitching changes and who to bring in.  It is not that hard.  

I don't doubt that there are times when human judgment is helpful.  My point isn't that Yost, or anyone else, should manage just like Strat does.  But so long as Strat is better than Ned, Ned has a hell of a lot to learn, and he ought to be more concerned with bringing his skills up to that point than with improving on the computer algorithm at the margins.

Now, as many of you would correctly point out, very little of what I've said so far is specific to Yost.  There are "FireJoeIncompetent.com" websites for more teams than the Brewers.  That's absolutely true.  It's also true that that's a really weak defense of Yost, though one that people frequently use.  Many teams overspend for middle relief help (Hi Mr. Hendry!), but that doesn't mean any GM who does it should be let off the hook.

And, most of all, the fact that "everybody is just as bad" makes it that much more inexcusable for a general manager not to seek out better options.

We're no longer a "small-market team" as measured by payroll (thanks Mark!), but that hardly means we have unlimited resources.  We certainly have many millions fewer than the Cubs do, and that's to say nothing of potential playoff rivals in other divisions.  Point being that we have to make tradeoffs, and every stupid decision means other potentially positive things can't be done.  (That's true even if you're the Yankees.)

I'm digressing a bit here but, on the free-agent market the last few years, one marginal win (say, the difference between winning 82 and 83 games) costs an average of $3 million.  That number is likely to go up.  Where the Brewers are, right on the cusp of the playoffs, each win is potentially "worth" a lot more than that -- think of the 3 wins that would've gotten us from 83 to 86?  How much are those three wins worth to the Brewers organization?  More than $9 mil, I'll tell you that.

You can probably see where I'm going with that.  If you accept my premise that managers (specifically, Yost) could get more out of their 25-man rosters than they currently do, the next logical step is to accept that managers are way more expensive than they seem.  Essentially, Yost made Jenkins and Mench less valuable players by not keeping them in a strict platoon.  He made Cordero a less valuable player by saving him for "save situations."  He made Turnbow less valuable by pitching him on back to back to f'ing back nights.  He made Shouse less valuable by using him against righties.  

Let's say all those screwups meant that Yost's decisions cost the Brewers exactly one win.  (That's low.)  That's essentially the same as saying that keeping Yost as the manager is equivalent to lessening the Brewers payroll by $3 or $4 million.  If you think Yost cost the Brewers three or more wins, that's the same as saying keeping Yost is the same as lowering the payroll by $10MM, and potentially cost the organization WAY more than that in postseason revenue.

That's (obviously) not acceptable.

I want to talk a little about the common defenses of Yost, as well as other subpar managers.

Everybody second-guesses

Melvin said this:

"Hey, we're all managers," Melvin said. "We're all the biggest second-guessers in the world. There are teams going to the playoffs that were second-guessed. ... There are areas that Ned has to improve at, and he knows that."

Setting aside the fact that Ned has been a big league manager for years and he "knows" he has to improve some things, this is BS.

I would argue that smart baseball fans are not second-guessers.  I'm not talking about the people who call into (and host) talk radio.  I'm talking about us (how immodest, I know), who groan in game threads when Turnbow comes in or when the lineup is posted -- not after the game when something hasn't worked.

A bad decision is not one that doesn't work.  A bad decision is one that gives the team less of a chance to win.  Starting Counsell over Braun is a bad decision regardless of whether Counsell hits for the cycle and drives in eleven runs.  (Yeah right--like he'd ever do that!)  Bringing in Shouse to face Pujols is stupid, whether Albert strikes out or not.

The fact that "everybody second-guesses" has nothing at all to do with whether a manager is good, or better than people think, or ought to keep his job.

All managers are bad at this stuff.

True.  That's why a GM with balls should hire a manager who is good at this kind of stuff.  It's like expanding your payroll by ten million bucks.  Or more.  This isn't rocket science.

And anyway, I've already said that, for ten grand, you (Hi again, Doug!) can give your manager a magic decision-making machine to keep in the dugout with him at all times.

I'm not kidding.  My e-mail is on the right sidebar.

Ned wasn't the real reason the Brewers didn't make the playoffs

This is the favorite around these parts.  Truth be told, there is no single reason that the Brewers didn't make the playoffs.  My personal opinion is that we didn't make the playoffs because was because Prince Fielder didn't hit 20 more home runs and slug .750.

I'm kidding, but with a point.  Any player on the team, or any combination of players, could've played better, up to or exceeding expectations, and caused the Brewers to win more games.  Of f'ing course.  That one guy "should've" done his job better (Hi Johnny!) doesn't mean that other people are off the hook.  Every baseball team has some people who exceed expectations and some who underwhelm.  Each has to be evaluated individually.  That Richie Sexson had a .205 batting average with an OBP of .295 isn't okay just because the Mariners outperformed expectations.  That's ridiculous.

But, ultimately, that's what people are saying when they argue, "Ned is ok -- the starting rotation is the real problem."  No argument from me on the second point: the starting rotation could've done better.  (Though, as I've covered in my Suppan and Capuano post mortems, we're criticizing the pitchers too much for what appropriately belongs at the feet of the defense.)  If Ned is making bad decisions and costing the Brewers wins, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about win #84, win #104, or win #54.  

If there's a better option out there, we should take it.  It's exactly the same reasoning that leads Doug to pick up a reliever off of waivers when he thinks that guy is better than all the guys currently on the 40-man.  If we can make a marginal improvement, we should do it.

Is that so hard?

Well, what is hard (or so I can hear Doug objecting) is picking who that marginal improvement is.

As with most things, I've got a solution for that, too.  I think that managers, like middle relievers, are fungible.  One is largely the same as the other: in the case of MRs, it's a matter of catching lightning in a bottle (Hi Danny!); with managers, it's finding somebody who isn't set in incorrect ways.

Let's find somebody who we know is good at "team chemistry" stuff.  Frank Kremblas comes to mind, but I'm sure that, given time, a good MLB staff could come up with a list of 15 names like that.  Then, let's sit him down with Dave Lawson, the Brewers stat consultant, and give him a thorough education on how a baseball team ought to be run.  (Dave would do a great job with this, in my opinion.)  No room for egos here: I don't care if that's not the way "people do it"--that's the way we're going to do it.  You don't get a competitive edge by mimicking your competitors.

That, essentially, is what Billy Beane is doing.  However, just about every other team is going along with the status quo, allowing their manager to cost them ten million bucks a year.

That is a mistake.  Doug: you can do better.

0 recs  |  Comment 21 comments

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Absolutely first rate, Jeff!
I will definitely be showing this to the Yost supporters that I know.

I love the "2nd guessing" defense of Yost.  It's like for Verlander's no-hitter this year, everyone said that.  However, i would think that regardless of the outcome (in this case, 0 hits) having Counsell, Graffanino, Gross bat 9-1-2 in the lineup at that point wasn't exactly a recipe for success.

It's scary to think of what this team could become with more progressive thinking like this from the front office instead of falling into the trap of the status quo.  Let's hope that Ned is looked at under a microscope next year instead of a magnifying glass.  After all, the "window" is only open for so long.

.....again, great article.

If A-Rod hits A-Bombs, does Fielder hit F-Bombs? It's dumb I know....

by Adam P on Oct 5, 2007 12:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute
You think Ned has a Blackberry?

Well done, of course.  I always like it when the writer lists the counterpoints ahead of time and deflates them.  It just saves time.  :)

It's funny, it seems to me you're much more likely to see a pitcher bat eighth than a closer come in in a high-leverage, non-save situation.  Why is it taking baseball so long to figure this stuff out?  Especially teams like the Royals --- really, what do they have to lose?

Anyway, good post, even if it does mean you're off of Nedgar's Christmas Card list.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Oct 5, 2007 12:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Amen
Ryan Braun is the Ed Hochuli of Third Basemen. Prince is now Chubber Lang

by hyattff2003 on Oct 5, 2007 12:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

BlackBerry?
That sounds suspiciously like the Luddite-frightening "computer in the dugout."
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2007 1:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

well..
I suggested the blackberry because I figured it'd be a little more subtle.  No dual quadcore processor sitting next to the watercooler ...it would just look like Ned (or maybe Dale) wants to catch up on his emails between at-bats.
Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Oct 5, 2007 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Idea
Give the BlackBerry to Marcus Hanel or Bill Castro and have them warm up whoever it advises regardless of Nedgar's wishes. Then they just have to call the dugout whenever Nedgar has to go out and make the change.
Obscure baseball records and more at my blog, Recondite Baseball.

by TheJay on Oct 5, 2007 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be funny
if we could figure out how to make pitching changes without Ned going to mound -- or how to avoid making changes at times when he does go to the mound -- we'd really have something there.
Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Oct 5, 2007 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome, awesome post
I especially like the "everybody second guesses part." It angers me when people dismiss people like us as second guessers because we don't/didn't agree with was Ned was doing.  They don't seem to realize that we do it in-game. Sure, Counsell was successful when he stole second with two outs and the pitcher up.  That doesn't mean it was smart.  It was retarded.  I'm glad it worked, but don't do that again.
"Shabbat shalom, motherfuckers" - Ryan Braun

by The Prospector on Oct 5, 2007 1:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

amen.
Asked what was said during the phone conversation with LaRussa, Yost said, "That falls under 'nobody's business" right; except all brewer fans who wanted a win!

by Jamie in LA on Oct 6, 2007 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now that was the Kaboom I was looking for
Nice Rant Jeff

I love the part where you point out a lot of us groan when Pitcher A is brought in or the line up is posted not later after the fact(that would make us the creatures who dwell over at the bizarro BCB lol)

I always say if a caveman mope such as myself can see something why cant Neddy Baseball?

Once again nice work

My God Yost is coming back the 2008 season is already a disaster and they have not thrown a pitch yet. ;)

by WSB Chris on Oct 5, 2007 1:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Use of Bench
I'm right with you on the bullpen issue and the regular line-ups based on matchups.  But what does the "deus ex machina" tell us about the use of a bench?  

If Braun is always a better option over Counsell does he play 162 games each year?  Could you do that with a CF like Bill Hall?  Is there a role for an outfield rotation? How long do you stick with someone who's career projectory acording to the stats is positive but who is sucking on the field?

We've got questions, who's got answers?

by Jwillie67 on Oct 5, 2007 1:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've got answers.
If Braun is always a better option over Counsell does he play 162 games each year?

I'll admit that's one role for a human being who can judge when the starter is banged up or just needs a day.

Could you do that with a CF like Bill Hall?

If he's your best option in CF, yes.  If he's not, he shouldn't be starting in the first place, or he should be in a platoon.

How long do you stick with someone who's career projectory acording to the stats is positive but who is sucking on the field?

Defense is part of "the stats."  Braun (the whole package) isn't as "good" as his OPS, while Hardy (ditto) is probably better than his OPS.  

Small sample sizes are just that -- if someone is sucking on the field and they are historically a very good defender, then it's probably a blip.

That's another sometimes failing of Ned's (and most managers) that I didn't mention: playing the hot hand based on 7 or 14 or whatever days of stats.  Baseball doesn't work that way.

Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Oct 5, 2007 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fantastic
Great post.  Not really a rant, cause rant has the implication of lack of thought or logic, and this is full of both.

The real question, can we somehow get this to Doug's desk?  Even if they don't admit it, they certainly listen to the yahoos who dominate sports talk TV/radio, and consider that the "average fan."  There must be somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody, that can grab Doug's stache and say, "You've got to read this."  Doug seems too smart to be able to ignore this logic.

by DikJones on Oct 5, 2007 2:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.
I suspect that some things on this site DO make it to Doug.  I know a few people in the organization with Doug's ear.  Team blogs aren't taken as seriously as "think-tank" sites like BP and THT, but I do know that underlings pass along notable articles from those sites to GMs ...for instance, I know that things I've written have gotten in front of Shapiro, Cashman, and (I think) Beane.

I try not to be blindly fan-boy critical in hopes that if something like this DOES make it to Doug, he won't be turned off by things like "Doug Melvin is a f'ing idiot if he keeps Yost."

That does require editing sometimes :).

Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Oct 5, 2007 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
it was established previously that that Grinder fellow is somehow related to Ned.  What if printed out the post, sealed it in an envelope, and told Grinder and Ned not to read it but give it straight to Doug.
"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Oct 5, 2007 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

awesome.
and, great post.  i hope this gets to doug.
Asked what was said during the phone conversation with LaRussa, Yost said, "That falls under 'nobody's business" right; except all brewer fans who wanted a win!

by Jamie in LA on Oct 6, 2007 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yost has become the scapegoat
I don't think Yost is the greatest manager of all time, but I don't really have a problem with him returning next year (which is good, because he's coming back whether we like it or not).  Maybe he made a few mistakes on the season, but who else are we going to get to replace him?  In the end Yost isn't as bad of a manager as most people make him out to be, and he's certainly better than a lot of other managers in the major leagues.

I disagree with your notion that a computer could run a team better than Yost, or in fact well at all.  Numbers can be an excellent tool, but baseball is not and never will be ruled by statistics.  If you just step back and look at the numbers then it makes Yost look great, the Brewers certainly outperformed their numerical projections this year, even if they ended up losing the division.

One of the most common criticisms of Yost is his bullpen management.  People seem to hint that if they were managing they would have come up with some magic combination that would have saved us all those blown leads, but at some point you just have to accept that our bullpen wasn't very good.    Yost screws up by going to Turnbow/Linebrink/whoever, well who does he put in instead?  None of our closers was consistent this year, with the possible exception of Shouse (who only looked consistent because Yost used him at the right times).  Going by the numbers, who do you bring in for a save on the road?  Cordero has an almost 7.00 ERA, can't go to him.  Maybe Turnbow pitched the day before, can't go to him.  Wise is having a personal meltdown, can't go to him.  Shouse can't pitch against righties, can't go to him.  Linebrink already pitched the 7th because none of our starters can last more than 5-6 innings.  

I'm not saying Yost didn't make mistakes, you make an excellent point by showing how many more runs we might have gotten had Menchkins stayed in their platoon, but I think a lot of people are making him the scapegoat for a season that started off so well.  Maybe Menchkins would have given those extra runs, maybe Jenkin's cold streak would have continued and he would have gone 0-30, costing us runs.  It's easy to manipulate the numbers in retrospect and show what went wrong, but that doesn't mean it would've been the right decision at the time.

There were a lot of reasons we lost the NL Central, and Yost is certainly partially to blame, but in the end we lost the NL Central because our pitching was sub-par.  Our starting rotation wasn't very spectacular and rarely went past the 5th, Sheets continued to invent strange injuries that assuredly cost us a lot of wins, and Capuano (even if it wasn't always his fault) felt the need to set new records for losing streaks.  Our bullpen was equally sub-par, nobody was able to consistently hold a lead, and our star closer had an almost 7.00 ERA on the road.

by stevie ray Braun on Oct 5, 2007 2:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

but who else are we going to get to replace him?
why do we always have to answer this question

but I will start

Joe Girardi for starters

or

Frank Kremblas

There are two people I would have been happy to see replace Ned Yost.

My God Yost is coming back the 2008 season is already a disaster and they have not thrown a pitch yet. ;)

by WSB Chris on Oct 5, 2007 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and, of course
I answer that in the post itself.

I realize it's a lot to read, though :).

Weird, but not weird.

by Jeff Sackmann on Oct 5, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's true, but...
Granted, the bullpen wasn't very good, and we were bound to lose a lot of leads no matter who we put out there. Still, that doesn't excuse putting Shouse out there against right-handed batters, who have hit .300 off of him in his career (for example).  We didn't have a bullpen of Mariano Riveras, but that doesn't buy him a free pass to make bad decisions.  We were never so badly off that we HAD to pitch Derrick two days in a row.

It's easy to manipulate the numbers in retrospect and show what went wrong, but that doesn't mean it would've been the right decision at the time.

I suppose the whole point is, you never know what moves will work and what will backfire.  But abandoning pitching splits and what have you for gut instincts and hot hands is such a poor way to manage.  You wouldn't hear many complaints about Nedgar if he made the strategically smart decisions and they didn't work out, even if we ended up with the same record.

But having said that, yes, there's plenty of blame to go around.

"I will agree that the attitude [at BCB] is ridiculous and they have done so much to instigate animosity and then block us from responding. Real mature!"

by roguejim on Oct 5, 2007 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sooooo...
Jim Tracy's available.
Lordz Of Vengeance....Sometimes I drink...Okay, most of the time.

by Dikembe Meiztombo on Oct 5, 2007 7:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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