I. Don't. Want. To. Talk. About. It.
That sucked. I mean, sure, we're all Brewers fans, we've been through worse. Sometimes on a nightly basis. But this team is supposed to be good. In fact, this team is good, but we're hamstrung by a manager who doesn't know how to handle a bullpen and mistakenly thinks that he's piloting the 1964 Dodgers.
Let's talk about aggressiveness on the basepaths. Aggressiveness feels good when it works, but you know what, it doesn't turn into an extra run all that often, and some of the time it does, that extra runs doesn't matter. But when it doesn't work, it can be disastrous. We gave away at least one run, possibly two and possibly many more tonight if we hadn't run into outs twice during this game. Ned didn't personally direct those decisions, but he's been egging the guys on since day one. That's on him.
And let's talk about the bullpen. I'm all for not going to Turnbow with a four-run lead in the 8th inning. Fine, good, not doing the obvious thing that is somewhat wasteful just to avoid second guessing. But guess what: the Phillies have some good hitters at the top of their lineup! And guess what else: Brian Shouse can't get righties out! Sure, he can sometimes, and I'm sure Ned has a LaRussa-inspired index card that tells him exactly when that happens, but of all the guys in that bullpen, Shouse is the one man who should not under any circumstances be opening up the 8th inning. Use Spurling for all I care. Trade in Dessens for somebody who can actually pitch. It doesn't matter, but it shouldn't be Shouse.
Let's go one step further. When a guy doesn't have it, that's ok. Tonight, Turnbow didn't have it. It was clear about three batters before he was pulled. Quick straw poll of BCBers: who would you rather have in the game, a baked Turnbow or a fresh Spurling? After suffering through '06, I go with Spurling. Cordero would be even better (I've heard that some humans are capable of throwing more than one inning on occasion), but it was obvious that Turnbow didn't have it. Might he have gotten out of the inning? Sure. He had some bad luck: usually if enough balls are hard hit, a few of them go right to somebody. But there's no good reason to take that chance as long as there's a warm non-Dessens body in the 'pen.
I could go on, but writing in all of these italics tags is making me tired. I'm going to all three games in the rest of the series, and I sincerely hope that Ned doesn't have the opportunity to continue doing crap like this. At the rate he was going tonight, I could be rooting for the Phillies by the sixth inning on Thursday.
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45 comments
Comments
There is a simple two word answer to our problem
I am pretty sure that Joe would not have sat there like a deer in the headlights while his team pissed away a 4 run lead.
I really hate Ned Yost they have done well in spite of him
You can handle losses like yesterday it happens but this one tonight these are the ones that hurt to your soul.
time to go patch drywall holes
by WSB Chris on May 14, 2007 9:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yost
by iluvlamp on May 14, 2007 9:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Jeff
by Marty McSuperFly on May 14, 2007 9:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My god people
The problem with being hot is you start to expect things to ALWAYS go right! Well - it's baseball and I REALLY doubt you can blame Yost for the loss!
His decisions did not LOSE the game unless you have access to some alternate reality.
Aggressive base running? Is that what you call Prince staying put on 1st on a Pass Ball?
by Grinder12000 on May 14, 2007 9:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No
I would honestly like to see some stats on Brewer stolen bases vs. being thrown out so far this year. I'd venture to guess it's not a good ratio.
by MadRyan on May 14, 2007 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
SB Ratio
11 caught stealing
63% success rate.
by craigholl on May 14, 2007 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course...
by Zeyes on May 15, 2007 5:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ridiculous
Despite his sub-par efforts in Nashville, Chris Spurling has been pretty damn good in his time with the Crew.
Why was he not the FIRST in the 8th? Or better yet, why is Jose Cappellan not on the team in place of Elmer Dessens?
I realize S-HOUSE hadn't pitched in a while, but who cares? He's a SITUATIONAL LEFTY for a reason.
Honestly though, Dessens being on the team gums up the entire bullpen. He isn't a viable option EVER, and it's obvious Ned and/or Maddux don't have any faith in him to get outs anyway. So, why is he still on the team?
by MadRyan on May 14, 2007 9:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Have any of you actually coached???
SOMETIMES you get it in the arse and you look like a fool. But every game you learn something.
Yost is not a dummy. He is a young and learning manager that EVERY YEAR goes through this learning process with the pen.
What works, who can do what and when.
Come on you guys - you are smarter then this.
by Grinder12000 on May 14, 2007 9:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ned screwed up, plain and simple
by keephopealive on May 14, 2007 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea
The OLD Turnbow lost it.
by Grinder12000 on May 15, 2007 6:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I donnow man
The baserunning was indeed over-the-top tonight. Tagging from third with two outs on a shallow fly is often smart aggressive baserunning, stealing 3rd with nobody out and the HOT top of the order coming to the plate is not.
by Tick on May 14, 2007 10:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nothing I
by iluvlamp on May 14, 2007 10:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok this is a small point
In the 8th when the game got to 6-5 with a runner on first and no outs Cordero started warming up in the pen. What followed was fly out, single, single, fielder's choice run scores, single, sac fly. Why was Cordero even warming in the pen? If you can't find a spot in there to put in Cordero then I just don't know. Last week there was a similiar situation where guys were up in the pen, things continued to unravel, and still no move. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
by dixieflatline on May 14, 2007 10:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Another point: To me, Yost showed how little he trusts the other relievers out there. He obviously wanted to give Turnbow and perhaps Cordero a night off...but to put Shouse--a loogy---in to face a righty just doesn't make sense.
In a small sense, Dale Sveuem should have pressured Yost into making a better move (that's the job of a bench coach) to look at all the options. If yost is telling us that shouse is the best option there...we have lots of problems.
I apologize for the caps/non-caps, I'm very inconsistent.
by Michael M on May 14, 2007 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ned deserves plenty of blame
A reliever who comes in with two on and no outs and gives up six runs in the inning is the primary culprit. Ned may have significantly reduced the margin for error with some of his moves, but it was still an awfully large margin for error for DBow, and he blew it.
Here's hoping this was just a one time thing. We've got to get 2 of the next 3 here.
Fortunately, the Mets beat the Cubs for us.
by Bill on May 14, 2007 10:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts
Could Yost's bullpen usage be better in some games? Definitely yes, but you can't say anyone's been overworked to this point.
by TheJay on May 14, 2007 10:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the conspiracy theorist in me...
by Zeyes on May 15, 2007 5:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Something I'd likt to stress
While everyone is all over Yost I think they are missing something.
We watch Yost every game but do not see that ALL managers make mistakes. It's not JUST Yost that sometimes pulls a bonehead blunder. ALL coach's have these things happen and the fans get upset.
Managers make mistakes all the time. People think that all other managers are perfect, but except for the very very elite, they are all just pulling cards out of a hat and learning as they go.
I think what lost last nights game was success! When something works over and over and over, when it does not work you do not have the experience to know exactly when to change.
HOPEFULLY, this was a learning game.
by Grinder12000 on May 15, 2007 6:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Deliberately missing the point
- Just because many managers suck, doesn't mean we have to grin and bear it when Yost sucks. This is the same stupid argument that people use with politicians. If managers get heat when they do something stupid, maybe the day will come that an owner hires someone that actually understands the value of statistical analysis, and doesn't throw games away based on unwritten baseball rules.
- This isn't a victim of success. It has never been successful for Shouse to come out as a regular reliever against right-handed batting. This blunder led directly to runners on 2nd and 3rd for Turnbow, and Turnbow does not handle pressure at all. That's why he's not a closer any more. The 8th inning pitching cockups are entirely Ned's fault, because there was nothing surprising about it.
- Ned won't learn. Check out my article over at FNY. He already said he wouldn't do anything differently. It is this arrogance and lack of self-reflection that drives many of us up a wall. It means that not only did he fuck it up yesterday, he'll also fuck it up if he gets a chance today.
by Marty McSuperFly on May 15, 2007 7:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Preach Brother Marty Preach
by WSB Chris on May 15, 2007 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree...
by engbjm06 on May 15, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Channelling GWB?
by DC Brewer on May 15, 2007 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched Heroes
Shouse does have some nasty left/right splits though. Turnbow will have days like this I think. As long as they are few and far between I'm ok with it.
And I also would not care is Cordero pitched 1 and 1/3 for once.
I still out this one on the pitchers though.
by grant76 on May 15, 2007 7:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Holy grammatics Batman
by grant76 on May 15, 2007 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad
Yost certainly uses Shouse curiously, doesn't he? The baserunning (again) didn't lose the game, but it did contribute to the loss ... you can't account for a complete Turnbow meltdown or Yost's refusal to use the stellar closer who hasn't pitched since last Wednesday.
Besides sitting here and bitching about the manager, is there a way to measure the manager's performance besides the ultimate W-L? Perhaps a rating on baserunning ("extra bases" and "outs on the basepaths," assigning partial blame to the player or manager, kind of like a "win share"), bullpen usage, etc? Just spouting off things here.
by nmc on May 15, 2007 8:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yost
Turnbow just didn't get the job done. Shouse didn't lose that game, Turnbow did. And Turnbow is the guy i want on the mound in that situation.
We got beat with our best out there. Blaming this one on Yost is wrong. He managed a pretty good game.
by jacob on May 15, 2007 9:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And here we have the problem
Obviously, Turnbow shoulders most of the blame for his performance, but Yost is the one that sent him out there with runners on 2nd and 3rd and no outs. Turnbow CANNOT handle pressure. He has thrived in a role where he can come in and work without pressure.
Shouse in the 8th is the prototypical Yostian move. He sent a guy out there to succeed against substantial odds. He gambled and lost, and doesn;t have the decency to admit it was a mistake.
by Marty McSuperFly on May 15, 2007 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
disagree
Shouse should never pitch an inning!.
What about a low leverage situation, or when other pitchers are unavailable. The best use of Shouse is v. LHB, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to use him against RHB. Some situations call for it, I think this was one of them...
So you are saying that Spurling was the no-brainer call for the 8th, and Shouse was the horrible mistake by Yost? Even though Shouse didn't lose the game, that horrible decision by Yost did cost the Brewers the game? If Turnbow had pitched anywhere near where he is capable of they'd have won the game. Turnbow blew it, he was the right pitcher for the situation.
Also Turnbow can and does succeed in pressure situations. He needs to succeed in pressure situations, protecting him against high leverage situations is stupid and would cost the brewers many of the wins they have this season already.
All you guys are wrong on the Shouse call. It's a coin flip there Spurling v. Shouse with a LI of 0.68
Yost managed well, Turnbow lost the game.
by jacob on May 15, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just have to disagree, then
by Marty McSuperFly on May 15, 2007 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so spurling?
by jacob on May 15, 2007 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
However, Spurling would have been a better choice, too. It's actually a coin flip for me whether Gross would have been a better choice than Shouse.
The Brewers snagged Shouse out of the Rangers minor league system, and somehow turned him into a useful major league pitcher by taking advantage of one thing he is good at. He is not, by any stretch of the imagination, an effective major league pitcher outside of that situation.
Incidentally, when the score went to 6-3 on the wild pitch with no outs and the bases loaded, the Leverage Index hit 2.98 and it was too late to close the barn door on Turnbow. Cordero needed to come in and slam the door, and then he needed to come in again when it went 6-5 with runners on 2nd and 3rd and a LI of 3.84.
At every point of the 8th inning, Ned had options, and at every point he chose the option with the least probability of success.
by Marty McSuperFly on May 15, 2007 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
.68
You have an argument for bringing in Cordero at any point after the wild pitch, most notably at 6-5 with runners at 2-3 and one out. that move would have been defensible.
Shouse can get righties out, granted not very well (60%). And, I think Spurling might have been the better choice, but given how long its been since Brain's House pitched bringing him in there is defensible. Bringing in Turnbow to start the 8th would not have been defensible.
But Yost did not let Shouse lose the game. He let Turnbow lose the game, and that's good managing.
Turnbow is a good enough pitcher to pitch in those situations... at least until he's not, after a two more games like yesterday then, yes, go to Cordero with only 1 out in the 8th and try to get a 5 out save from him... But Turnbow has been pitching so well that he deserved the shot to close out the 8th.
by jacob on May 15, 2007 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're not going to agree
- Spurling is a better bet than Shouse to start the 8th. Still not a guy you want out there, but better than Shouse.
- Cordero had to come in to bail Turnbow out either after the wild pitch at 6-3, or after the next 2 runs scored.
Incidentally, it won't be long before we have to start bringing some pressure on Melvin to improve the bullpen. If Vargas struggles today, there's a good chance that Ned will have to use Spurling or Dessens tonight, and that's a bad situation to be in.
by Marty McSuperFly on May 15, 2007 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the concept of a save.
Yost should not call Cordero his closer. He should call him his best pitcher out of the bullpen. Then he should use him in the most important situation.
Last night, that would've been the eighth inning with two guys on. So pitch Cordero there. Starting the ninth with nobody on the bases -- that would be the next-toughest spot. So pitch Turnbow there.
Oh no! But then a man who is not dubbed the "closer" might actually get a "save." And then Yost has to explain to the team's one beat writer why someone besides Cordero is finishing the game.
It's a lot easier to lose behaving like every other manager in the league than be second-guessed for doing something actually more logical.
by mitch on May 15, 2007 9:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In his last 5 outings
by Dutch on May 15, 2007 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my thoughts
is yost going to get blamed for every close loss? seriously. after every 1-3 run loss (and others, too), i read about how it's yost's fault. now bear in mind, yost deserves some blame for last night. but more than turnbow who - hello! - was the guy on the mound that got rocked? sure, there's always something the manager could have tried differently that may or may not have worked, but it's pretty f*ckin' easy to sit back after the game and rip him.
fellas, it's one game. yeah, it really, really sucked last night. it was a game that the brewers never should have lost. but just because the bullpen completely imploded doesn't mean it all rests on yost, like i've read a lot here.
and jesus christ, cut the guy some slack. even after blowout victories i'll read here the most nitpicky criticism of ned's management of the game. do you realize that even after losing the last 3 of 4 the brewers still have a 7 game lead in their division and one of the best records in baseball? does yost not get any of the credit for that?
by Griswald on May 15, 2007 9:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Blame
by Marty McSuperFly on May 15, 2007 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
T-Bow
As for the big picture, I still think they take 2-out-of-3 and come home with a 3-4 record on the trip. Not great, but not end of the world. I hope I'm right and I hope that T-bow doesn't repeat his meltdown from last year.
by DC Brewer on May 15, 2007 11:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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